Is it possible to start career missions from a cold start?

[Rangoon]

I just started a P-40E campaign (I'm brand new to the IL-2 BoX series). I saw an option to start in the air or on the runway with engines running. Is there an option ever to start from a parking spot, cold start? Or are these always the only two options?

[LukeFF]

No, only on the runway or in air. The AI sometimes has problems with taxiing from its parking positions, hence the only two options right now.

Edited January 30, 2019 by LukeFF

[Rangoon]

10 hours ago, LukeFF said:

No, only on the runway or in air. The AI sometimes has problems with taxiing from its parking positions, hence the only two options right now.

 

I figured that was probably the issue, which makes sense. These cockpits are so stunning, systems modeling so detailed, and taxiing such a challenge that it's really satisfying to start them up manually. Especially with a campaign mentality, will be great if they can ever get this to work. Like Falcon has always had the three options vs. just two. I'm one of those weirdos who likes to cold start in DCS most of the time, too.

[dburne]

On 1/29/2019 at 11:15 PM, Rangoon said:

I just started a P-40E campaign (I'm brand new to the IL-2 BoX series). I saw an option to start in the air or on the runway with engines running. Is there an option ever to start from a parking spot, cold start? Or are these always the only two options?

 

PWCG offers an "experimental" cold start campaign generator in version 5.0.4.

If you are not familiar with PWCG it is an excellent campaign generator by Pat Wilson. I fly only single player and have a lot of fun with it, as well as the IL-2 Career Mode in the game. I have not yet tried the Cold Start version.

 

Edited January 31, 2019 by dburne

[JG4_Sputnik]

Yep please bring this feature in a future patch - been waiting since the beginning of Il2 Stalingrad for this feature.

[=SqSq=SignorMagnifico]

Honestly, this would be one of the changes that would get me to fly career mode more often. Career mode is great, but starting up and taxiing adds a lot more immersion. Hopefully the devs can sort through the AI issues to make this a possibility. 

[tattywelshie]

Im guessing the issues are getting the AI to taxi properly and to the correct position at the correct time? I imagine it’s a very complex thing to achieve

[354thFG_Leifr]

It's a shame that something as fundamental as aircraft taxiing from a parked position is bust in BoX.

[=SqSq=SignorMagnifico]

1 hour ago, tattywelshie said:

Im guessing the issues are getting the AI to taxi properly and to the correct position at the correct time? I imagine it’s a very complex thing to achieve

 

1 hour ago, Leifr said:

It's a shame that something as fundamental as aircraft taxiing from a parked position is bust in BoX.

It is unfortunate indeed. Every single player campaign I’ve ever flown in DCS is from a ramp start, so it’s not impossible to get AI to start engines, taxi properly, and fly in a formation to target. It’s much more immersive to start with a cold engine. In fact, I think the single player campaign for this game, Hell Hawks Over the Bulge, features a ramp start in its first mission. Considering that it already works in a scripted campaign, it doesn’t seem impossible to get this to work in career mode.

 

Example of a ramp start mission working in IL-2 here: 

 

PWCG had cold starts working in version 8.0. 

 

Edited July 9, 2022 by =SqSq=SignorMagnifico

[LukeFF]

2 hours ago, Leifr said:

It's a shame that something as fundamental as aircraft taxiing from a parked position is bust in BoX.

 

It isn't busted. It just takes a bit of time to get it set up properly for each airfield. There are plenty of single missions and campaigns out there that have AI planes taxi from parking.

Edited July 9, 2022 by LukeFF

[Irishratticus72]

50 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

 

It isn't busted. It just takes a bit of time to get it set up properly for each airfield. There are plenty of single missions and campaigns out there that have AI planes taxi from parking.

Hurtgenwald campaign does it quite well.

[Hoss]

Campaigns are game generated, the Scripted campaigns are not, they are user built.  You can start from the ramp in Scripted, and as long as you taxi out like the author states the AI will follow you. I believe Bobenplatte Interactive will let you do that. But as far as i have ever seen in Campaigns you start on the Runway or in the Air like Luke said.  Vanders and Wilson's campaign generators I believe let you start on the ramp too.  It's been awhile since I have generated one of their missions. But here is a screenshot of his GUI.

Spoiler

 

[Dragon1-1]

Wouldn't the planes be lined up on the runway by the ground crews, in advance of the mission (I'm talking IRL)? It seems like it'd be a tall order to get this nice, dense arrangement by taxiiing, and WWII aircraft can be wheeled about by muscle power. It seems like a better way to get the whole squadron airborne in a short time than trying to get them all to taxi from revetments.

[=SqSq=SignorMagnifico]

24 minutes ago, Hoss said:

Campaigns are game generated, the Scripted campaigns are not, they are user built.  You can start from the ramp in Scripted, and as long as you taxi out like the author states the AI will follow you. I believe Bobenplatte Interactive will let you do that. But as far as i have ever seen in Campaigns you start on the Runway or in the Air like Luke said.  Vanders and Wilson's campaign generators I believe let you start on the ramp too.  It's been awhile since I have generated one of their missions. But here is a screenshot of his GUI.

  Hide contents

 

I tried PWCG earlier today, but I couldn’t find a ramp start option. It used to be located in Mission Limits — Always Air Start set to 2. Couldn’t find it this time. I wonder if the option got removed? At any rate, seeing that it is possible to get this working in the sim, it doesn’t seem unreasonable that this could be implemented into career mode at some point.

Edited July 9, 2022 by =SqSq=SignorMagnifico

[Hoss]

Jason goes out of his way with a small development staff, to give this small, but very loud crew of his what we ask for...... if at all possible. Anything is possible I guess, put it out there and see what happens. And that screen shot was Vander's Mission Builder screen shot, not PWCG.

 

Cheers

[DBFlyguy]

3 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

Wouldn't the planes be lined up on the runway by the ground crews, in advance of the mission (I'm talking IRL)? It seems like it'd be a tall order to get this nice, dense arrangement by taxiiing, and WWII aircraft can be wheeled about by muscle power. It seems like a better way to get the whole squadron airborne in a short time than trying to get them all to taxi from revetments.

They were taxied out by the pilots from their parking spots, ground crew sometimes assisted with taxing by sitting the on the wing and directing the pilot if needed.

 

A couple vids showing some wartime ground operations including taxing:

 

 

You can catch a glimpse of "wing riding" at the 4:54 mark:

 

 

[=SqSq=SignorMagnifico]

36 minutes ago, Hoss said:

Jason goes out of his way with a small development staff, to give this small, but very loud crew of his what we ask for...... if at all possible. Anything is possible I guess, put it out there and see what happens. And that screen shot was Vander's Mission Builder screen shot, not PWCG.

 

Cheers

I understand it was not PWCG. I was saying PWCG also had the feature at some point.

[RedeyeStorm]

4 hours ago, =SqSq=SignorMagnifico said:

I understand it was not PWCG. I was saying PWCG also had the feature at some point.

Still has. The option has moved. Don’t remember exactly where.

[Bando]

see here:

[=SqSq=SignorMagnifico]

22 minutes ago, Bando said:

see here:

Thank you! 

[354thFG_Leifr]

12 hours ago, LukeFF said:

 

It isn't busted. It just takes a bit of time to get it set up properly for each airfield. There are plenty of single missions and campaigns out there that have AI planes taxi from parking.

 

Hi Luke!

 

I can only speak through experience, and that is with extensive playing of the excellent PWCG. There is a legacy function for cold-starts if the player desires so, but it comes with the problem of AI not being able to find themselves on the airfield and being unable to take-off. Pat advised that the AI is simply unable to taxi properly, and that the option comes with the caveat of them potentially not making it to the mission.

 

There was a short exchange about cold-starts, AI and this problem here. I'd say in roughly 60% of missions the AI would get to the runway (but may ground-loop several times, or take an uhh alternative route to the runway), and in the remaining 40% we would observe continuous ground looping whereby they wouldn't even make the runway during the length of the mission. In the end we decided to just turn the option off because it was wasting our time, now we have to start on the runway with engines running - obviously not a massive problem, but it does detract somewhat from the experience. ?

 

(Addendum; Pat also commented as recently as four hours ago about the AI being unable to taxi.)

 

 

 

 

Edited July 10, 2022 by Leifr

[dburne]

19 hours ago, =SqSq=SignorMagnifico said:

Honestly, this would be one of the changes that would get me to fly career mode more often. Career mode is great, but starting up and taxiing adds a lot more immersion. Hopefully the devs can sort through the AI issues to make this a possibility. 

 

I am with you there.

[tattywelshie]

9 hours ago, dburne said:

 

I am with you there.

I’d actually love it if the devs, once Normandy is finished, is instead of diving straight into the next instalment is to spend some time improving things like the career, drop tanks, AI taxiing, etc 

[JonRedcorn]

28 minutes ago, tattywelshie said:

I’d actually love it if the devs, once Normandy is finished, is instead of diving straight into the next instalment is to spend some time improving things like the career, drop tanks, AI taxiing, etc 

Don't we all.

[BraveSirRobin]

11 minutes ago, JonRedcorn said:

Don't we all.

No.  I want the next group of aircraft and map.  That’s what pays for the other stuff.

[JonRedcorn]

21 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said:

No.  I want the next group of aircraft and map.  That’s what pays for the other stuff.

Whatever you say boss.

[BraveSirRobin]

1 hour ago, JonRedcorn said:

Whatever you say boss.

You’re welcome.  Glad I could help you better understand how the development process works.

[JonRedcorn]

50 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said:

You’re welcome.  Glad I could help you better understand how the development process works.

Give yourself a cookie m8!

[tattywelshie]

14 hours ago, JonRedcorn said:

Don't we all.

Yup, things like collector aircraft will still obviously filter through, but a bit of a period spend just polishing certain things would definitely be a good thing 

[Irishratticus72]

[Gambit21]

On 7/9/2022 at 12:02 PM, tattywelshie said:

Im guessing the issues are getting the AI to taxi properly and to the correct position at the correct time? I imagine it’s a very complex thing to achieve

Not really, especially since there are few aircraft involved in career flights, no other AI (scenery flights or otherwise) taxiing at your base when you begin. I’ve built more missions than I can count and have rarely (I’m not saying never) had taxi issues.

 

 

[PatrickAWlson]

2 hours ago, Gambit21 said:

Not really, especially since there are few aircraft involved in career flights, no other AI (scenery flights or otherwise) taxiing at your base when you begin. I’ve built more missions than I can count and have rarely (I’m not saying never) had taxi issues.

 

 

 

That really is the problem.  When you start in revetments or on the side of a taxiway or whatever, the AI gets confused about proper taxiways and sequencing.  It just halts, or runs into each other, etc.  I think just stopping is the biggest issue. 

 

It seems to be airfield dependent and, when I last checked, it was more than a little black magic.  We were told "you have to play with it".  Needless to say, we do not have time to "just play" with hundreds of airfields.

 

Murleen implemented the rules as well as he could.  Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.  I leave it in PWCG because it does frequently work.  I do not call it a supported feature because too often it does not.

[Gambit21]

1 hour ago, PatrickAWlson said:

 

That really is the problem.  When you start in revetments or on the side of a taxiway or whatever, the AI gets confused about proper taxiways and sequencing.  It just halts, or runs into each other, etc.  I think just stopping is the biggest issue. 

 

It seems to be airfield dependent and, when I last checked, it was more than a little black magic.  We were told "you have to play with it".  Needless to say, we do not have time to "just play" with hundreds of airfields.

 

Murleen implemented the rules as well as he could.  Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.  I leave it in PWCG because it does frequently work.  I do not call it a supported feature because too often it does not.

Interesting - however I’ve been able to get it to work at every airfield I’ve tried for both of my campaigns plus the Ju-52 mini-campaign back in the day. This includes from revetments and various places on the fields.

 

That said, I’ve not come close to testing every field.

 

Edit: I do recall in beta reporting problems at a field or two, and seen Habu report a few.

 

 

Edited July 11, 2022 by Gambit21

[PatrickAWlson]

3 hours ago, Gambit21 said:

Interesting - however I’ve been able to get it to work at every airfield I’ve tried for both of my campaigns plus the Ju-52 mini-campaign back in the day. This includes from revetments and various places on the fields.

 

That said, I’ve not come close to testing every field.

 

Edit: I do recall in beta reporting problems at a field or two, and seen Habu report a few.

 

 

 

There are, of course, rules in place and the code that Murleen wrote follows them.  Therefore you do get working taxiing in PWCG quite often.  Not sure what the percentage is but probably better than 50%.  The daunting part is making it work everywhere when the rules are somewhat hit and miss.  If you're writing a campaign that uses three, four, five fields then it may be manageable.  Not sure how many fields generally get used in a campaign so if 3-5 is badly understating then then apologies.  In a career mode pretty much every field gets used at some point, making perfection much harder.

[JG4_Moltke1871]

I can only agree with many of the commentators here..
Start cold and dark in the career would be a huge thing

[I./JG52_Woutwocampe]

I've seen the AI unable to take off from a freaking runway start in careers. Making donuts on concrete in Kurfursts and Doras during BoBP campaigns. So much that I actually had to request transfers hoping the AI would be able to simply TAKE OFF from a new airfield. I've also seen the AI often fail at taxiing properly after landing. In my 110 career, AI wingmen often end up crashing into static grounded planes and killing their engines this way. The game actually calls it a successful landing :).

 

So no, the AI absolutely could not handle taxiing from a cold start in a career. It would be a joke most of the times. That's a pity because I'd actually love to cold start missions in campaigns.

Edited July 14, 2022 by I./JG52_Woutwocampe
Profanity

[dburne]

9 hours ago, I./JG52_Woutwocampe said:

I've seen the AI unable to take off from a freaking runway start in careers. Making donuts on concrete in Kurfursts and Doras during BoBP campaigns. So much that I actually had to request transfers hoping the AI would be able to simply TAKE OFF from a new airfield. I've also seen the AI often fail at taxiing properly after landing. In my 110 career, AI wingmen often end up crashing into static grounded planes and killing their engines this way. The game actually calls it a successful landing :).

 

So no, the AI absolutely could not handle taxiing from a cold start in a career. It would be a shit show most of the times. That's a pity because I'd actually love to cold start missions in campaigns.

 

Yeah me too, my preference would be to always cold start and taxi to runway. Just adds some nice immersion for me.

[354thFG_Leifr]

So, is it bust or not @LukeFF?

Is this something that needs to go in to the Complaints sinbin?

[RyanR]

Would on the runway with engines off be a compromise? I recall that was how IL-2-1946 was.

 

-Ryan

[PatrickAWlson]

16 hours ago, RyanR said:

Would on the runway with engines off be a compromise? I recall that was how IL-2-1946 was.

 

-Ryan

 

I think it's the taxiing part that is most interesting.  Our engine management is pretty simplified - press E and wait fore the engine to warm up - so I'm not sure that is what people are looking for.  That's my  $.02.  I'll let others speak for themselves.