50.cal ground hit effect and gun spread

[catchthefoxes]

 

hello, I've started other topics before on the 50.cal rounds and how we don't get the complete effect of them here . This one about the bullet flash when it hits the ground and the spread of 8 50cal guns. in the vid below (and all gun cams) there are flashes happening when the rounds impact on the ground, I think this might because of the ammo the pilot is using which we don't have in game (i could obviously be wrong on that) but if it isn't I'd really like to see this effect implemented (i hope I'm not the only one), I know the 109s MK 108 has that effect when its bullets hit the ground; maybe just copy and paste the effect with the 50 cals but make it smaller perhaps (and the same with tracer smoke)? 

Also on the 50 cal spread and hit effect; I know I'm going to get flak for this but the 50s are too accurate, I may have been naive expecting them to have that much spread but from all gun cam footage I've seen it really does look like your flying a giant shotgun but the only way to get that effect in game is to overheat the guns or set them at a very far convergence like 700m+ but from what I've read pilots usually had them at around 300m, so by that logic (which could be flawed) all pilots who flew jugs had their guns constantly overheated or there should be a lot more spread in game. I was really disappointed that the 50cals didnt have this effect when the jug was released. Now on the effects time; I hate that after 2 seconds of firing your guns in the jug the bullet strike effect on the ground just stops, i know the devs did this because it had an affect on performance but its really immersion breaking, is there a way to model the effect DCS has with their 50 cals bullet strike on the ground or just in real life?  

I know the devs work really hard on everything in this simulation but have no idea how hard it is to create everything so please forgive the ignorance when I make these types of suggestions.

 

this vid clearly show the spread and hit flashes on 12.5mm rounds

 

 

Edited January 28, 2019 by catchthefoxes

[Ehret]

2 hours ago, catchthefoxes said:

this vid clearly show the spread and hit flashes on 12.5mm rounds

 

The spread could because of  guns harmonization which we don't have currently; only a simplified convergence is available.

[Legioneod]

I would like to see more clear flashes from API rounds. Currently it's very hard to see hits imo either on ground targets or on aircraft.

[MercCrom175]

LOL also look at the full value winds that are pushing the rounds......

[Rjel]

I'd wager almost all of those clips show that the pilot was firing well outside of the guns convergence settings. Some looked more than double the standard 300 yards. That would explain the wide dispersion.

[Heckpupper]

First of all - yes the spread and recoil in Il-2 BoX is miniscule and should propably be revisited.

 

Second of all, the reason why you think the spread of the .50s in those videos is so large is because the only rounds you can actually see are the tracer rounds which have much worse ballistics when compared to regular AP-I and the flammable material of the tracer often tends to separate from the actual bullet (not only in .50's mind you) which really makes it seem like the fire is innacurate.

 

What you don't see are all the non-tracer bullets which are going where more or less where they should be going.

[Legioneod]

What we don't see in-game is the flashes produced by the API. They are there to some degree but they are not as noticeable as they should be imo. In the gun-cam the flashes are very visible but this is not the case in-game.

[MercCrom175]

Flashes do need to be brighter, very much agree on that

[catchthefoxes]

29 minutes ago, Rjel said:

I'd wager almost all of those clips show that the pilot was firing well outside of the guns convergence settings. Some looked more than double the standard 300 yards. That would explain the wide dispersion.

 

this type of spread even beyond the set convergence still doesn't show

 

28 minutes ago, 4./JG26_Onebad said:

the reason why you think the spread of the .50s in those videos is so large is because the only rounds you can actually see are the tracer rounds which have much worse ballistics when compared to regular AP-I and the flammable material of the tracer often tends to separate from the actual bullet (not only in .50's mind you) which really makes it seem like the fire is innacurate.

 

What you don't see are all the non-tracer bullets which are going where more or less where they should be going.

 

thanks but id still like to see the spread modeled whatever the cause

[LukeFF]

15 minutes ago, catchthefoxes said:

thanks but id still like to see the spread modeled whatever the cause

 

It already is. 

[catchthefoxes]

4 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

 

It already is. 

 

is  it?

 

[Legioneod]

The thing you have to realize is gunnery in a moving aircraft is much more difficult irl than it is in-game. The .50s are hitting where the pilot is aiming in the video, it's just the pilot hasn't aimed the aircraft on target and he is constantly moving/ making corrections, that is why the rounds seem to spread out and move alot.

 

The .50s are almost dead accurate but the aircraft is moving constantly and this is why there is such spread in the hits.

 

EDIT: Another thing to consider si the pilot in the video wasn't aiming for the tank car, he was aiming at the object next to it from what I can see.

He his his target dead on for the most part.

Edited January 29, 2019 by Legioneod

[-=PHX=-SuperEtendard]

I guess harmonization plays a bigger role than the spread itself, it's also noticeable in the charts.

It would be interesting to test it, is the scale of the charts in feet?

[catchthefoxes]

55 minutes ago, Legioneod said:

The thing you have to realize is gunnery in a moving aircraft is much more difficult irl than it is in-game. The .50s are hitting where the pilot is aiming in the video, it's just the pilot hasn't aimed the aircraft on target and he is constantly moving/ making corrections, that is why the rounds seem to spread out and move alot.

 

The .50s are almost dead accurate but the aircraft is moving constantly and this is why there is such spread in the hits.

 

EDIT: Another thing to consider si the pilot in the video wasn't aiming for the tank car, he was aiming at the object next to it from what I can see.

He his his target dead on for the most part.

 

i circled it to give scale to distance sorry should have been more specific but probably doesnt matter

Edited January 29, 2019 by catchthefoxes

[Garven]

 

10 hours ago, catchthefoxes said:

 

this vid clearly show the spread and hit flashes on 12.5mm rounds

 

 

In April of 1945 the 56th Fighter group was testing experimental T48 incendiary ammo. I don't know if there is much difference visually, but it is something to consider.

Wikipedia article under the Final Operations segment: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/56th_Operations_Group

 

Edited January 29, 2019 by =AVG77=Garven

[Bremspropeller]

You do realize that the guncam has about twice to three times the optical zoom than what you're using in game?

[Heckpupper]

12 hours ago, Legioneod said:

The thing you have to realize is gunnery in a moving aircraft is much more difficult irl than it is in-game. The .50s are hitting where the pilot is aiming in the video, it's just the pilot hasn't aimed the aircraft on target and he is constantly moving/ making corrections, that is why the rounds seem to spread out and move alot.

 

The .50s are almost dead accurate but the aircraft is moving constantly and this is why there is such spread in the hits.

 

EDIT: Another thing to consider si the pilot in the video wasn't aiming for the tank car, he was aiming at the object next to it from what I can see.

He his his target dead on for the most part.

 

This exactly. Yes the spread is modeled in game, but it's hardly noticable and should propably be increased.

But the real reason behind how easy it is to shoot accurately is that aircraft are just piss easy to fly and control.

It's hardly a problem to put a gunsight on a target and maintain it there, even through rolls and such. All the control axis are always nice and smooth, which isn't necessarily the case in real aircraft, not to mention the absence of adverse yaw and so on. 

 

The only way to make shooting more realistic is to work on both guns and flight models as they're both two sides of the same coin.

[catchthefoxes]

3 hours ago, Bremspropeller said:

You do realize that the guncam has about twice to three times the optical zoom than what you're using in game?

Yes, that’s why I said it doesn’t matter.

[Bremspropeller]

1) Really? Where?

2) It does.

[BraveSirRobin]

15 hours ago, catchthefoxes said:

 

is  it?

 

 

I got a pretty good simulation of that guncam image in a P-47 quick mission last night.  Just hit the rudder while you’re shooting.  

[LukeFF]

3 hours ago, 4./JG26_Onebad said:

Yes the spread is modeled in game, but it's hardly noticable and should propably be increased.

 

Artificial, gamey gimps like this is not what the game needs. 

[Heckpupper]

Just now, LukeFF said:

 

Artificial, gamey gimps like this is not what the game needs. 

 

I never said it should be increased past reasonable/realistic values. I meant to suggest that it should be increased to meet those values.