When to stop shooting?

[SP1969]

Had some great fun on JG1 last night - thanks again to JG1 for providing somewhere for us to play this exciting sim with like minded people.

 

I'd be happy to make a contribution to server costs if someone would care to tell me how.

 

I have a question about MP.

 

If an piloted, not an AI, aeroplane is obviously damaged to the point where the pilot is trying to crash-land, smoking perhaps, half a wing missing ( Fokkers seem to be perfectly capable of landing with one or more surfaces missing ) or with a dead engine, what do people feel about continuing to shoot?

 

My personal inclination is to stop firing and let the guy land. I wouldn't fire on a parachute, either.

 

I'm not saying my choice is any more right or wrong than an alternative, I was just interested in folk's opinions on the matter.

 

 

 

[Zooropa_Fly]

I let pilots land, in fact I often give them a chance to leave the fight if they're smoking or missing a bit. Innevitably they turn and start shooting again !

Don't expect to be shooting at parachutes..

 

I don't think finishing off a landing plane that you've forced down is wrong, that's up to the individual.

Finishing off a landing plane that someone else shot down on the other hand..

Strafing a plane taking off is wrong, unless in the context of a capture the field scenario.

 

That's my moral 2 cents worth, and of course there are the odd exception to the above rules

 

S!

[4driano]

If the airplane is damaged enough to not go back in fight, I stop shooting as soon as I perceive that.
But if the airplane is just near the ground and I can not see that heavy damage, I shoot it.

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

1.: Propeller stopped

2.: Enemy Spinning, may come back later, when he doesn't Crash Land it immediately

3.: Visible Structural Damage, so when Wings are starting to give it's just a waste of Ammo

 

In any Case, shooting a visibly defeated Enemy isn't necessary, as long as he goes down in friendly territory. 

[Darkowl]

Well I have to say that question may came up because of me.

I have shot down a Fokker who was limping home with a part of the upper wing gone.

In the moment I shot it I wasn't really aware that it was human.

Usually I don't shoot at players who are trying to land,start or are on the ground. 

I was unhappy with the result that I pissed someone off.

My apologies for that. 

 

Edited January 6, 2019 by Darkowl

[SP1969]

It wasn't about you, Stephan, it wasn't about anyone in particular, nor was the topic a veiled snipe at anyone at all, you may have my word on that.

 

If I have a beef with someone, trust me, I will say it directly to their face.

 

I was just interested in what people think, what the consensus is and will behave accordingly - I was looking for my own guidance and casual interest as to the views of the MP community - because we are starting to get one, which is great.

 

Incidentally, I swung in behind that self same Fokker as he was heading over the coastline, fully intending to blaze away, until I saw the missing wing.

 

I too, initially thought it was an AI - and I have been shot down by AI that I had thought crippled, machine gunned on the ground by AI, and am constantly rammed by AI, which is why I SPECIFICALLY exempted AI from the initial post.

 

You are a great pilot, a frighteningly accurate shot and an honourable opponent, Sir. I enjoy flying in the same server as you. 

 

Another thing occurs to me.

 

If I am hopelessly red mist wounded, or the aeroplane is starting to break up or has engine failure, but think I might be able to bring the aeroplane down in more or less one piece, I fire a white flare, indicating surrender.

 

I haven't seen a white flare fired by other players in FC in such circumstances - is that a convention that doesn't get used here?

Edited January 6, 2019 by SP1969

[Zooropa_Fly]

I have on occasion let off a white flare of surrender (in RoF), mainly if it's someone I know and fly with often. Seen others do it in ROF too.

But again no-one is obliged to respect or even understand the flare.

 

I don't have flares mapped in BoX yet come to think of it, so you won't see one from me for a while there !

 

[SP1969]

Thanks ZF!

 

It was the universally accepted thing at one time, I thought, in RoF, on some servers at least.

 

Going back a bit now, though. 

[NO.610jailor]

I was also on yesterday and really enjoyed everyone's company. I had one engine failure and as soon as I turned away from the enemy I was left alone to safely put down. Latter I was wounded, smoking and again engine out. This time as I was about 100 feet off the ground I came under a sustained attack, for me not the done thing but just my humble opinion.

 

On another note is any one on Teamspeak or discord as it adds enjoyment for me rather than flying around on my own. See you latter today. Salute!

Edited January 6, 2019 by NO.610jailor

[J37_GCF]

14 minutes ago, NO.610jailor said:

I was also on yesterday and really enjoyed everyone's company. I had one engine failure and as soon as I turned away from the enemy I was left alone to safely put down. Latter I was wounded, smoking and again engine out. This time as I was about 100 feet off the ground I came under a sustained attack, for me not the done thing but just my humble opinion.

 

On another note is any one on Teamspeak or discord as it adds enjoyment for me rather than flying around on my own. See you latter today. Salute!

 

discord sure here it is , https://discord.gg/W9RV46p im online now and will be all day feel free to drop in.

as for flares do different colours or combinations mean things in game , i just fire off randomly to get attention. lol

[NO.610jailor]

Thanks for that GCF, will be in later so might catch you. Have only used TS but I am sure I will work discord out. As my kids say I am old but not obsolete.

Edited January 6, 2019 by NO.610jailor

[J37_GCF]

Just now, NO.610jailor said:

Thanks for that GCF, will be in later so might catch you. Have only used TS but I am sure I will work discord out. As my kids say I am old but not obsolete.

 

no worries and no hurry, im in room all day until the mass FC dogfight tonight. ill be able to talk you through the setup, it a discord channel that i run the FC side of , small , nice group of players. me im always up for FC multiplayer and on most of the time. it has a dedicated FC events chat room , a FC general chatroom and we fly on voice chat channels there most days 6 to 8 online at some point of the day.

[JGr2/J5_Klugermann]

5 hours ago, SP1969 said:

 

My personal inclination is to stop firing and let the guy land. I wouldn't fire on a parachute, either.

 

I'm not saying my choice is any more right or wrong than an alternative, I was just interested in folk's opinions on the matter.

 

 

After reading some of the threads my inclination is to never let go of the trigger. ?

[Darkowl]

Stuart, I think you are absolutely right to bring up that topic.

 

A couple of years ago I tried RoF in Multiplayer and was shot to pieces even before I could get off the airfield. 

I was so frustrated that I quit and never tried again.

Everyone who doesn't come back to multiplayer because he had bad feelings about his treatment thru other players is a loss to the community.

Maybe it could be helpful to post some nettiquette guidelines as a subline to the server rules.

 

I didn't know about the meaning of a white flare. But It's a good way to say I'm done and I will be fine to adopt that. 

 

Cheers Stephan

 

 

[BMA_West]

1 hour ago, Klugermann said:

 

After reading some of the threads my inclination is to never let go of the trigger. ?

 

 

You have to mean threats then )))

 

About differentiating ones opponent from AI it probably would be helpful to chose a different skin from those?

 

45 minutes ago, Darkowl said:

…..

Maybe it could be helpful to post some nettiquette guidelines as a subline to the server rules.

...

 

 

 

This subject is entirely up to the server owner, however it could not hurt your case to pleat it there.

Like the appliance of the rule that you can only finish your flight landed the while staying there as target for the amount of time set on the server.

In fact as long as one does not appear shot down in chat one is fair game to beef the opponents statistics.

Even after he may go on and kill you just to blow out our streak (victories without getting killed) candle.

The more times one is manhandled like that the more prone one gets to act accordingly.

Best thing to do when shot down is Salute and swallow the bullet.

 

Between friends eg on a training server you get an entirely different situation ...

 

And one more observation, for everybody venturing on MP there are +9 account holders that never set foot there - devs dixit.

Edited January 6, 2019 by West

[BMA_Hellbender]

Be a gentleman flyer, but don't expect to be treated like one.

[BMA_West]

4 minutes ago, Hellbender said:

Be a gentleman flyer, but don't expect to be treated like one.

 

+1

Exactly Bender 

Edited January 6, 2019 by West

[HagarTheHorrible]

2 minutes ago, Hellbender said:

Be a gentleman flyer, but don't expect to be treated like one.

 

 

Quite so, but if others fly by different rules then so be it.  The only things I dislike are vulching, for the sake of it if it's gaming the game and doesn't give the opposition a fair crack, they may as well just cheat and be done with it rather than hiding behind a veneer of historical gobbledygook.  The only other exception is pilots in chutes, just why would you bother.   Everything else is fair game, depending on mood and circumstance, everything else on the part of the victim is just sour grapes, their argument should be to just fly better and smarter that they don't get shot down in the first place, lets face it the consequences during the war were a hell of a lot worse than wounded pride or disjointed nose. 

[BMA_Hellbender]

3 minutes ago, HagarTheHorrible said:

Everything else is fair game, depending on mood and circumstance, everything else on the part of the victim is just sour grapes, their argument should be to just fly better and smarter that they don't get shot down in the first place, lets face it the consequences during the war were a hell of a lot worse than wounded pride or disjointed nose. 

 

This may be straying from the original topic a bit, but I've always preached zen when dogfighting: learn to appreciate the beauty of the kill rather than who got it.

 

That's not easy for someone starting out who wants to get better but finds himself consistently dying to the same people while making the same mistakes. You need to have the consistency to leave your ego at the door and learn. Recording your flights and reviewing them is a good start. Even so, I find that the more experienced pilots are often those with the most fragile egos and the least willing to adapt, which leads to extremely talented people leaving the game for good. In the end, multiplayer is by definition a losing game, since there are no clear winning conditions. It's about who can last the longest in his own mindset and still feel he has achieved something.

[SP1969]

Thank you for your interesting thoughts, Gentlemen.

 

GCF, regarding flares, I always understood it as 

 

Green: Take off or land

Red: Enemy sighted/I am in need of help

White: I surrender/ take command of flight

Yellow: Hold my beer, I REALLY need a piss.

 

 

[Zooropa_Fly]

I usually pop a white one when coming in to land. I seem to remember the bots doing that in one of the offline modes.. 

[ShamrockOneFive]

I think the decision here has to be very situational. I've let people go only to be shot in the back by them after I pulled away... Clearly I had made the mistake of letting them go. These days I ensure that my targeted aircraft is either going down or that they are in such a state that they cannot re-engage me or another friendly aircraft. Protecting friendly aircraft and my aircraft should be priority.

 

If it's pretty clear that they are done for, going down, maybe going in for a crash land then yeah I'd leave em be.

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

I once had a dude strafe me on takeoff, then in the same flight complain that I strafed him after he was badly damaged and landing.

 

I usually let a badly damaged enemy land, unless they are known to engage in murderous behavior themselves.  Even so, I always make sure to escort the landing player to the ground whenever possible, as there are some people who will take advantage to shoot you in the back.

[HagarTheHorrible]

Just to add another piece to he pie, it could be argued that their might be different considerations for Allied and Central players.  With Central players having chutes and thus the option to exit the fight at any time ( unless they introduce a 30% failure rate) it might be considered fair game to continue to attack any Central aircraft that is still in the air and under control.  The victim having as much of a choice about continuing in the circumstances as the attacker, for obvious reasons not an option available to Allied pilots.  That scenario would also play out somewhat in line with the situation on the Western Front, battle often taking place some distance over the German side of the lines and with unfavorable headwinds preventing a timely Allied exit thus favoring German pilot options and survival.

[Garven]

5 hours ago, Klugermann said:

After reading some of the threads my inclination is to never let go of the trigger. ?

Spoiler

 

Edited January 6, 2019 by =AVG77=Garven

[SeaW0lf]

My two cents:

 

One of these days in FC I gave room for a player to land or go away and he came back - twice. In both occasions I ended up fighting two foes. So just play it by ear. Like Klaus mentioned, the safest way to let a player go is when you see that the propeller stopped. If you hit the tank and it is leaking, it will stop eventually and you just let it go. 

 

And there is the drone case that Darkowl mentioned. Scout drones are not usual in non icon missions because of just that - you can't discerne sometimes who is drone and who is not. People will steal kills, get in the way and be killed and straffed because we don't know who is flying. And drones do strafe as well.

 

Then there is the context. 

 

In a 1 X1 duel (even in full real missions) you can have some chivalry depending on the case. That's what makes this game for the passionate ones.

In furballs, it is better to finish the job, but strafing is pitiful in most cases.

In hectic missions with several players, with vulching and such, people start to strafe and kill at will. It escalates. Sometimes it is even fun. But note that people will pay it back and some will get a badge of vulchers, strafers, or stat hores.

If the player misbehaved in your view, you can kill him next time with no remorse. You can even strafe him if you consider his / her fault to be extreme (like if he or she strafed and killed you).

 

I just think the most shameful kill is when the propeller stopped and you are gliding down and you get killed. If you are a good player, pay it back at will.

 

In general I'm a good sportsman. I let people duke it out in airquake missions in general (if the match is even), I let people land and that sort of thing. But it depends.

 

Note: today I got strafed twice while gliding near the ground with my engine seized. In one of them I got killed. I was a bit rude on the second time, but this is how we learn. And sometimes it is a person who has a beef with you for some reason and that kind of behavior gives him / her some satisfaction? I'm not sure. Not my cup of tea.

 

All in all, multiplayer is not a cool / collected place. As Bender mentioned, those who are not up to it leave after a while. It is competition. As in tennis, soccer, basketball, competition is fierce, egos are considerable and not all of them are fair players. You have to live with it and climb the ladder untill you find your comfort zone.

 

And to apologize is gold. Don't be shy.

Edited January 6, 2019 by SeaW0lf

[BraveSirRobin]

I shoot until I see a kill message.  If you don't want to be shot at, bail out.  If you don't have a chute, get used to landing while someone is shooting at you.  I've lost count of the number of times some forum humanitarian has shot at me while I was attempting to land a disabled aircraft.

[US103_Baer]

3 hours ago, BraveSirRobin said:

I shoot until I see a kill message.  If you don't want to be shot at, bail out.  If you don't have a chute, get used to landing while someone is shooting at you.  I've lost count of the number of times some forum humanitarian has shot at me while I was attempting to land a disabled aircraft.

 

This.

 

When keeping score i shoot until it's given and will pass all confirmation criteria. If enemy has switched his engine off and attempts to ditch safely he's going to get filled with lead till he's dead. Any sign of drifting off to his own territory, the same. 

 

Haven't decided about parachutes yet but it'll likely come down to scoring implementation and how much ammo I have left. Their  implementation in the FC game seems flawed and when vlifes are at stake, I may take the Ira 'taffy' Jones approach.

 

Edited January 7, 2019 by US103_Baer

[Guest deleted@83466]

57 minutes ago, US103_Baer said:

 

 

 

Haven't decided about parachutes yet but it'll likely come down to scoring implementation and how much ammo I have left.

 

In the context of an online video game, firing at players dangling in parachutes is essentially equivalent to telling them to go F themselves.  Understand very clearly that that is what you are doing.  You are conveying your disrespect for them.  If you're going to do such things, I would definitely reserve that sort of behavior to players you truly despise, chronic vulchures, trolls, or people who have done it to you prior---because that kind of thing generally doesn't go over very well.  If you do it to someone you are on good terms with (or someone you wouldn't be comfortable telling off in words), don't expect to be on good terms with them afterwards. 

Edited January 7, 2019 by SeaSerpent

[Feathered_IV]

I stop firing the moment I think they are done.  Normally I try not to hang around any longer than necessary, as chances are one of their mates will be lining up to return the favour any second.  Quite a few times I have told the other person in the chat that I'm breaking off and wont interfere if they are trying to put the aircraft down.  On occasion when it is empty skies, I may form up on them too.  It's trickier to do that in RoF though, as the closing speed is slower and they can often misinterpret your intentions and destroy themselves by needlessly evading. 

[Stumble]

I feel like we have to remember that this is set during WW1. Believe it or not they used to have this thing called "Chivalry". It's a fairly forgotten term these days ?

 

But yeah, don't shoot em if they don't have any chance to fight back. It just ain't nice I reckon.

 

That's my two cents.

 

S!

 

PS No parachutes to shoot at! Giving a pilot a parachute will give em a chance to coware away and leave the battle. Haha

Edited January 7, 2019 by Stumble

[AndyJWest]

22 minutes ago, Stumble said:

...

Believe it or not they used to have this thing called "Chivalry".

...

 

Yes and no. There was probably more respect for the enemy than found in the bloodbath in the trenches below, but it took little time once air-to-air combat became practical for people to realise that caching your opponent unawares and shooting him in the back was the safest way to fight: see the Dicta Boelcke. The whole 'knights of the air' thing seems largely to be fiction, mixed in with more than a little self-serving selective memory.  Then again, warfare involving actual knights wasn't usually very chivalrous either. If defeated knights in armour weren't routinely dispatched by whacking a metal spike through their visor-slit, it was only because they were thought to be worth more alive as hostages (the lower orders in the ranks were of course not so lucky, since nobody would pay ransom for a peasant). Warfare has always been brutal, and I don't think it is necessary to sugar-coat the realities of aerial warfare during WWI in order to appreciate the skills of participants.

 

As for the OP's question, back in the days when I participated in RoF MP, I'd generally break off as soon as I was reasonably confident that my opponent was damaged enough to no longer be a threat. Not for 'chivalry' so much as for self-preservation. Dogfights attract attention, and newcomers are likely to have a height advantage. And more ammunition. Better to lose a kill through leaving early than become one yourself by leaving late.

[Stumble]

@AndyJWest Fair enough. You raise some pretty good points there. I do feel like ww1 was the turning point where it was less about the people fighting but more about the political leaders. At least that's the way the movies portray it haha ? 

 

That reminds me, I'm very keen to try find a way of watching Sir Peter Jackson's latest film "They shall not grow old". The amazing thing about this film is that he's trying to not introduce any historians opinion but have all the information come straight from the people that were there, who were experiencing not only the horrific side of war but also the fact that it felt like a big adventure! At least that's what I can tell from the trailers/ various bits and pieces from YouTube. 

 

S!

Stumble.

[SP1969]

1 hour ago, Stumble said:

That reminds me, I'm very keen to try find a way of watching Sir Peter Jackson's latest film "They shall not grow old".

Cough torrent cough

 

[BMA_West]

10 hours ago, SeaSerpent said:

 

In the context of an online video game, firing at players dangling in parachutes is essentially equivalent to telling them to go F themselves.  Understand very clearly that that is what you are doing.  You are conveying your disrespect for them.  If you're going to do such things, I would definitely reserve that sort of behavior to players you truly despise, chronic vulchures, trolls, or people who have done it to you prior---because that kind of thing generally doesn't go over very well.  If you do it to someone you are on good terms with (or someone you wouldn't be comfortable telling off in words), don't expect to be on good terms with them afterwards. 

 

This is rather relative as Allies do not dispose of that luxury;

If one was flying Allies above enemy territory in campaign modus one would have every right to nip enemy chutes.

Of course one only would if properly covered by wing members and if not too time inconvenient.

 

Of course on an exercise server or between friends no one would I dare guess.

 

While being able to recognise opponents in the absence of icons that would only float in case of personalised skins;

[Guest deleted@83466]

2 hours ago, West said:

 

This is rather relative as Allies do not dispose of that luxury;

If one was flying Allies above enemy territory in campaign modus one would have every right to nip enemy chutes.

Of course one only would if properly covered by wing members and if not too time inconvenient.

 

Of course on an exercise server or between friends no one would I dare guess.

 

While being able to recognise opponents in the absence of icons that would only float in case of personalised skins;

 

If you want to strafe people in chutes, it's your choice...even in a DiD tournament, you may claim "the right" to do so, for the sake of winning, but don't be surprised if lots people think you are a Jerk for doing so. And if you really want to be the life of the party, don't forget to type in "S!" afterwards, lol.  In any case, I'm not going to get into a philosophical discussion about it, because it's been the subject of dozens of threads over the years on this forum, and it always ends the same way--without resolution. 

Edited January 7, 2019 by SeaSerpent

[No.23_Triggers]

For me it varies. In RoF I've let guys drift home, but I've also shot them right into the dirt. I've broken off to let guys ditch but I've also strafed them after they've landed out. 

As Baer says, I want my victories confirmed. In the 103d we have our own 'scoreboard', with our own criteria for victories, separate of the parsers, which we use & update on Thursdays for the fly-ins. On that day, I don't stop firing until the guy is dead. When I'm doing just a 'casual' fly-around, I've let people go. 

As for the big controversy, the 'chute....Again, it depends. I've let Huns bail but I've also shot them. The big argument 'for' chute-shooting is, of course, that only the Germans have them. At first, I was of the opinion of "why should they get to bail out when we have to fall? I'm going to shoot any parachute I see", but I've changed my mind since then. Now I'm more in the 'Good for them!" camp. 

That being said, if, for instance, a Hun collides with a wingman and then bails..well, I'm making sure he hits the ground at the same time as my buddy.

Edited January 7, 2019 by US103_Larner

[J2_Trupobaw]

Quote

For me it varies. In RoF I've let guys drift home, but I've also shot them right into the dirt. I've broken off to let guys ditch but I've also strafed them after they've landed out. 

 

This. Usually I stop shooting when I'm sure the game / stats page will credit me with victory, but sometimes I let them go even without. 

If enemy is trying to land a mostly functional plane (thus depriving me of victory), I may shoot over his head and hope I'll shake him enough to turn it into crash landing (which in RoF at least means victory) without killing the pilot. Or I may just fly over him and waggle my wings because, why not. The same way, when I disengage and ditch my plane I sometimes break my prop against the ground to not deprive my opponent of well earned victory. 

As for chute killing... there is no victory to be had in it. Meaningless trolling. 

 

Edited January 8, 2019 by J2_Trupobaw

[SeaW0lf]

Well, speaking of chivalry...

 

Note that this book - Wings of War, by Rudolf Stark - is now on Kindle (Amazon) for three bucks. I consider it heregy to not buy it and it is a beautiful book. I will, because it is better for searching than in a real book. I scanned this section (with some cuts) on FineReader. The encounter seems a bit farfetched, but what do we know? They tell the story.

 

We are back from the front, and slowly the evening descends upon us. That patrol was our last take off from here to the lines; tomorrow we shall land on the new aerodrome. I fly off just once more, quite alone, to say farewell. Higher and higher I climb. The haze that extends to two thousand metres is left below me, as I soar up heavenwards in the pure sky of eventide.

 

My view is so clear and infinite today. When I reach five thousand metres, I can see the sea; it shines in the distance, glittering gold in the setting sun. I am looking on it for the last time. (...)

 

The front lines now run along by Roeux, Monchy, Vancourt and Croiselles. From my height I can no longer see the shell-bursts; the war has sunk to the depths, while around me all is peace and silence (...) It is a long way from the front to Arras now. Arras has almost become part of the base. The town lies directly beneath me, but l can only just recognize it. Mists rise up from the Scarpe and float over the town, wrapping all its buildings in a soft, blue veil (...) a solitary machine climbs up in my vicinity and approaches me. It is a single-seater, an English scout.

 

At first we stare at one another across the void; then we attack and begin to turn. The turns grow narrower and narrower; nearer and nearer come our machines. I can see every detail of the other machine, the painted badges, the number, the bracing wires. Two red streamers float out from its elevator . . . the pilot is a streamer-man, like myself, a leader.

 

We meet alone in the great heights. What drives my opponent so late into this loneliness? We still continue our narrow turns. Neither can get on the other's tail and put in a burst. I see his eyes peering out of his goggles and watch his hand on the stick. Is it not senseless to think of fighting now? The other pilot raises his hand and waves to me; simultaneously both machines pull out of their turns. Now they are flying side by side, quite close to one another - quite close. Weary of the combat, two birds of prey soar through the evening sky on peaceful wings. We have known one another a long time. Our formations have often met and fought at the front. Has peace come to the land now, so that we may fly tranquilly side by side? (...) We do not speak of the depths, of the ground far below us, and so we do not speak of the war. We speak of the air, of infinity, of eternity, of the stars.

 

Darkness grows around us. Only a faint gleam comes up to us from the lakes and rivers in the west that reflect the last brightness of the evening sky. Already it is quite dark in the east; the eye can see nothing more there when, dazzled by the western sky, it scans the depths.

 

I must go home (...) we detach our thoughts from one another and break off our flight. One machine goes into a wide turn and heads eastwards; the other flies to the west. The streamers swing out in opposite directions to give a farewell greeting. The other machine vanishes into the evening sky, while I dive into the blue twilight.

 

 

 

On the chutes, I've seen some WWII accounts and the general sense is that they despised such acts and often went bananas to get the ones shooting chutes. I see no place for it in here, but people do what they do. 

 

And I don't care much about stats in general, so I often let people go with that feeling of "it is not worthy to get out of my way just to get a kill", especially in an airquake server (it is just sparring). But I do dislike the glitches of the game, like prop prongs and such. But I would welcome stats that favors who lands in their own side of the lines or airfields and looses their streaks if they land in enemy territory. That would push people into a better pattern of flying online.

Edited January 7, 2019 by SeaW0lf

[Stumble]

14 hours ago, US103_Baer said:

Haven't decided about parachutes yet but it'll likely come down to scoring implementation and how much ammo I have left. 

If it's a German, shoot em all ya want ??