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77.CountZero

Battle of Rome

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DLC could focus on Allied landings at Salerno, landings at Taranto, and ground advances to Gustav line trought toe of South Italy area.


tldsfre54.jpg

 

https://history.army.mil/books/wwii/salerno/sal-fm.htm
https://history.army.mil/books/wwii/salerno/sal-prep.htm
https://history.army.mil/brochures/naples/72-17.htm
https://history.army.mil/html/books/006/6-3-1/index.html

Airfields in Italy in ww2:

http://www.ww2.dk/Airfields - Italy Sicily and Sardinia.pdf

 

Proposed map area for game could be around 550x550km ( depending on bases neccesary could be 50km+ to north or south ) : 

213571317_battleofitaly.thumb.jpg.b71e4dae876d304be573b124961b3177.jpg

 

 

 


This area is not extra big and it covers battles from the time Allieds already landed in Sicily July 1943 and have bases there up to landings in Anzio January 1944, with main focus on Salerno landings and Operation Avalanch. And map is with interesting terain with big variations in altitudes offering chalange to fight over.

 

Airplanes that operated in that area and battle that could be in proposed DLC ( i try to check as best i could for all airplanes in list, and from what i see they operated in battle and from bases in area on proposed map )  :

 

A-36A   ( or P-40L )
Spitfire Mk.VIII  ( or Spitfire Mk.IXC )
Seafire Mk.IIc  ( or Martlet Mk.IV )
P-38G  ( or A-20G )
Beaufighter Mk.VI  ( or Mosquito NF Mk.VI / or B-25D if not already flyable from BoBp / B-26C from Sardinia only also if not already flyable from BoN )

 

MC.205V Serie III 
Re.2002 Serie II ( or Re.2001 Series IV / or Re.2005 Series 0, not many used ) 
Bf-109G5 ( or Fw-190A4 not many used, mostly A5s / or G.55 Serie 0, not many used if used )
SM.79bis ( or CantZ.1007bis not many used )
Ju-88A-17 ( or Me-410A-1 / or Do-217K-2  used Fritz X and hs293 as interesting novalty, but from far north bases in Istria and south east France)

 

I think atleast one german bomber or fighter would be neccesary, in brackets i placed some other options, some bombers like B-26C or Do-217K-2 operated in battle but did not flew from bases in that 550x550km area from what i could reserch. 

 

Carrier operations could be introduced and torpedo loudouts, or it could be just continuation of it, if it comes after PTO DLC with naval battles.

 

There is also good number of airplanes that can be used from BoM/BoS/BoK/BoBp/BoN and some collector airplanes now in offer:

MC.202

Bf-109G2
Bf-109G4
Bf-109G6
Fw-190A5
Bf-110G2
Ju-52
Ju-87D3
Ju-88A4

Ju-88C6
He-111H6
He-111H16

Me-410A/B

 

P-40E ( not exact version but close )
A-20B ( not exact version but close )
P-39L ( not exact version but close )
Hurricane MK.II ( not exact version but close, Mk.IV used in area)
Spitfire Mk.Vb 

Mosquito Mk.VI
B-25C/D 

B-26B/C

 

Edited by 77.CountZero
reupload picture and add BoN airplanes on existing ones that can be used
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I dont remenber they said Italy is out of question, i know africa is out of the picture now, but before Salerno operations there is more then few big operations in MTO and maps that can last for years to fill that gap for TFS. ( from history point if they go by timeline its Torch landings, Tunisia camppaign in early 43, Malta+Sicily for Husky and previous operations, thats 3 maps to make before geting to place i recomend in first post i think it would take them few expantions till they get near.

 

But if this is still to close, maybe late Italy campaign starting with Gothic line push in late 1944 and 1945 Italy campaign is also good, but problem there is most airplanes used are already in game with BoBp, so not big choice but something like this could fit there and be interesting:

for Axis: G.55 Serie I , MC.205V Serie III , Bf-109G-10 , Me-410B-3, Ar-234B-2

for Allieds: P-39Q-20 , P-47D-30 ( or razerback P-47D-22 or P-51C-10 ) , Spitfire Mk.VIII , B-26G-5  , B-25J-15 ( or Mosquito NF MK.XIX or P-61B-2 )

 

Map area would be around 450x500km but more populated with big citys but bonus would be no naval operations , something like this ( all airplanes on list had bases in area and operated in operations in late 44 early 45)  :

 

Spoiler

t9k5d4.jpg

 

 

and you can use it for operations from after Rome is liberated till end of war in Italy, dont know what would be good name for it Battle of ?.


https://history.army.mil/brochures/nap/72-34.htm
https://history.army.mil/brochures/po/72-33.htm
https://ww2db.com/battle_spec.php?battle_id=315
https://standwheretheyfought.jimdo.com/italy-2012-2014-the-gothic-line-campaign-1944-futa-pass-and-giogo-pass-then-and-now/

 

I think with going to Italy there is stil room for both, one does early med and one late ops in Italy, like its for West front now.

 

 

 

Edited by 77.CountZero
P-39Q, P-47D and Me-410B, insted P-38L, P-51D and Fw190A9, add picture of area
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Salute Count,

 

Shades of SEOW, that was a challenging campaign, wouldn't mind seeing it come alive here.

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Hi Craven, it would be great to have map of area of Italy in this game, when it can make maps with so mutch bigger detail on hights then old 1946 its shame to spend it on mostly flat maps :) . I dont expect anything similar to amount of units or detail in ground war is posible here for SP or MP, but air war and maps they can cover for some simpler campaigns then SEOW did in il-2 1946.

Edited by 77.CountZero

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An italian scenary would deserve this one as a must. Marauder would be something different from the classic B-25 and A-20 even if boths were heavy involved there, as for Mosquito:

 

b52743b78cd1a71b7d79272fada55258.jpg

 

 

 

 

Edited by 150GCT_Veltro

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1 hour ago, 150GCT_Veltro said:

An italian scenary would deserve this one as a must. Marauder would be something different from the classic B-25 and A-20 even if boths were heavy involved there, as for Mosquito:

 

b52743b78cd1a71b7d79272fada55258.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

Yes they would be best option, as we could use existing A-20B and probably by that time existing B-25C/D from BoBp, so B-26C is better option for Allied bomber type ( when B-17s and B-24s are out of question even though they saw heavy use over italy also ).

 

What i see as problematic is that B-26C operated from north Tunisia and Sardinia bases during 1943 and early 1944 operations over Italy. So map should be then extended 200km towards West to include that parts and their bases. Even that big area should not be problem as map that they are now making for BoBp is around 400x360km but its all over land, and would have more citys, towns, roads, rails, and so on... then this proposed map for Battle of Rome, as more then 50% of area is sea, and even expanded to include sardinia and north tip of Tunisia would not be to hard. My only concern would be number of naval units, and that big naval operations impact on game.

 

 

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Posted (edited)

+1 from me to this. The 44-45 would be my ideal choice, with the split Italian forces, but the 43-44 one would arguably make more sense; not just for Rome but the infamy of Monte Cassino. If the Pacific isn't possible, I hope this is the route taken.

 

That said, as long as we stay in WWII, I'll trust the Devs to create a great addition wherever they see fit.

Edited by rodgerdavies
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Posted (edited)

Some nice shoot of 205: 0'37''

 

Edited by 150GCT_Veltro
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Posted (edited)

With a map like this we could have scenarios from 42 (Sicily bomb raids) to 45 (tialian civil war), amazing stuff

 

Edited by SCG_Faerber
correction

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On 1/6/2019 at 6:45 PM, SCG_Faerber said:

With a map like this we could have scenarios from 42 (Sicily bomb raids) to 45 (tialian civil war), amazing stuff

 

 

If your thinking about that first black and white picture then yes, but that area in one map would be to big, and would be hard to select just 10 airplanes for whole period. For all that you would have to have atleast 3 maps ( one tunis sicily and malta, one sicily and south to central italy, and one central to north italy ).

 

 

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Posted (edited)

It would be very interesting the Italian war theater, even from a landscape point of view, the only fly on Italy gives a great emotion, compared to the flat and monotonous plains of Stalingrad, Moscow or Western Europe.
Until 1942 the fate of the conflict and also the air forces were very balanced between Axis and Allies and therefore the Campaign would be interesting. I would see very well, for example, the convoy air-sea battles in the Sicilian channel and the battles on the skies of Malta in 1942.
Since 1943 there is too much imbalance in favor of the Allies, especially from a quantitative point of view. However, in terms of the quality of the individual airplanes, the balance would be quite substantial and some interesting mission could be created...
I encourage developers to keep going on this path ...

Edited by Alfaunostebas11

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Posted (edited)
On 1/9/2019 at 1:48 AM, Alfaunostebas11 said:

Since 1943 there is too much imbalance in favor of the Allies, especially from a quantitative point of view. However, in terms of the quality of the individual airplanes, the balance would be quite substantial and some interesting mission could be created...
I encourage developers to keep going on this path ...

 

Excatly! You have perfectly got the point, and however we could have the boxed bomber formations to preserve the historically imbalance (as we did in the old IL2).

 

In terms of simulation, planeset, Italy would be one of the best scenary if not the best considering the addition of italian Serie 5 and G-10 Erla. Just an example: an Axis fighter pilot could have this hangar: G6 (with Erla canopy addition + Trop.), G-10/G-10 Erla, G-14, G-14AS, K4, FW-190A-8, FW-190F-8, Macchi 205, Fiat G-55 (Reggiane 2005 for Husky). Historically was imbalanced but for a single fighter pilot, in a WW2 simulation, it would be just a dream.

 

Allied could have almost everything, Spitfire VIII serie and Seafire first of all.

 

Just an example of what i mean:

post-1022-0-38665500-1456823991_thumb.jpg

 

Edited by 150GCT_Veltro

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I'm loving this topic!

 

I posted on the 'What next for 1C Studios' thread about my wish for an Italian Battle next. I think some of the ideas on this thread are really good, I'll add in my proposal:

 

I personally would love to see a 1943 Italian Campaign, I have previously argued for a Malta campaign, but that runs into the limitations of the game engine ie. large bomber formations aren't possible with this incarnation of the game engine.

 

I would love to see a Battle starting with the invasion of Sicily, Operation Husky. In this timeframe we have one of my favourite Spitfire's, the Mk.VIII, the first use of the Hurribomber in Il-2 Great Battles (aka the Hawker Hurricane Mk.IIb or Mk.IV), I don't know if Aircraft Carriers were used in Operation Husky, but it would put the technical developments in place for a future Pacific Battle, also giving us Wildcat's and Seafire's and Sea Hurricanes, maybe even the 'Stringbag' the Fairey Swordfish. Also American fighters like the P-51b and razorback P-47 to appeal to the american market, perhaps a Bristol Beaufighter as a twin engined heavy fighter / anti-shipping bomber. Also it would re-use some aircraft that we already have.

 

For the Axis line-up, most have already been done, for example the Me109G4 just needing a tropical air filter. New additions could include a Me410. A Stuka D5. The Mc.202 was still in use and a Reggiane Re.2001 would be nice...

 

I don't see the re-use of existing Luftwaffe Aircraft as a problem, 1C could still make 6 or so new types for each side... it's just that for the Axis line-up they would be able to create some of the more obscure aircraft. Anyone for a Fieseler Storch recce plane?

 

But my real interest is in the 'Serie 5' Italian Stallions, the Macchi Mc.205 Veltro and the Fiat G.55 Centauro... (I wouldn't include the Reggiane Re.2005 as it was built in such small numbers) The G.55 was perhaps the best fighter in the whole Axis line-up, combining a great powerplant in the license built DB.605 with a very aerodynamic and agile airframe. In terms of turning circle and maneouverability it was a match for the Spitfire as well as having good firepower. No more late war 109's having to use 'boom and zoom' tactics, the G.55 was a dogfighter through and through. Historically only a few dozen were operational by the time of the Italian armistice, but then again how many Mc.202's were in combat over Stalingrad or Moscow?

 

(from wiki) "The Germans also brought with them several aircraft including a Fw 190 A-5 and a Bf 109 G-4 for direct comparison tests in simulated dogfights.

The tests began 20 February 1943 with the German commission very impressed by the Italian aircraft, the G.55 in particular. In general, all the Serie 5 fighters were very good at low altitudes, but the G.55 was also competitive with its German opponents in term of speed and climb rate at high altitudes, while still maintaining superior handling characteristics. The definitive evaluation by the German commission was "excellent" for the G.55, "excellent" for the Re.2005 although very complicated to produce, and merely "average" for the C.205. Oberst Petersen defined the G.55 "the best fighter in the Axis" and immediately telegraphed his impressions to Göring. After listening to the recommendations of Petersen, Milch and Galland, a meeting held by Göring on 22 February 1943 voted to produce the G.55 in Germany."

 

This Battlefront also gives 1C the chance to model an invasion force on the beaches of Sicily as well as paratroopers.

 

Some may argue that this Battle is too obscure to be popular, but remember the days of Il-2 Forgotten Battles? I believe it would sell. And considering it uses many existing aircraft types, it wouldn't be too laborious to make.

 

Sorry if this post is a bit too detailed!  I also think a 1943-44 Italian Battle in the mountains north of Rome would be great. But a map covering Malta as an airbase for the Allies and the whole of Sicily to recreate, this isn't much bigger than existing maps (Kuban).

 

My suggested map area:

Roughly 350 x 500 Kilometres

 

Regione_Siciliana_map-blank.jpg.afe9eaccc8a9e2b8eeb89064dd89f613.thumb.jpg.5f57eff0f14e25e33182b110ed5ba8dc.jpg1727002817_SicilyJuly10-Aug171943.jpg.e146b8eeda471953894acd69e30a1b74.thumb.jpg.f0e576df78fa2d7df3505bc94974f31b.jpg

 

What do ya think?

Algy

 

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Posted (edited)

There was no Battle of Rome. It was liberated by my ex-boss and his mate from the Royal Artillery, or Royal Engineers I forget which, who decided to take a jeep/truck and go for a 'look-see'. They were sat outside a café drinking wine when General Mark Clark etc. triumphantly arrived, much to the American troops' astonishment and amusement.

Edited by Red_Cat
Edited for an apostrophe

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10 hours ago, Algy-Lacey said:

What do ya think?

 

I think the topic's been beaten to death and that the devs will tell us what they are doing next when they're ready to. 

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Posted (edited)
On 12/27/2018 at 12:12 AM, 77.CountZero said:

 

But if this is still to close, maybe late Italy campaign starting with Gothic line push in late 1944 and 1945 Italy campaign is also good, but problem there is most airplanes used are already in game with BoBp, so not big choice but something like this could fit there and be interesting:

for Axis: G.55 Serie I , MC.205V Serie III , Bf-109G-10 , Me-410B-3, Ar-234B-2

for Allieds: P-39Q-20 , P-47D-30 ( or razerback P-47D-22 or P-51C-10 ) , Spitfire Mk.VIII , B-26G-5  , B-25J-15 ( or Mosquito NF MK.XIX or P-61B-2 )

 

Map area would be around 450x500km but more populated with big citys but bonus would be no naval operations , something like this ( all airplanes on list had bases in area and operated in operations in late 44 early 45)  :

 

  Reveal hidden contents

t9k5d4.jpg

 

 

Hello 77.CountZero,

 

I really like your outline of a late war Italian Battle. It still leaves the possibility of an earlier Operation Husky: Battle of Sicily but Italy 44-45 includes the beautiful mountain scenery of central Italy and covers the Alps.

 

S!

Algy

On 1/8/2019 at 11:59 PM, 77.CountZero said:

 

If your thinking about that first black and white picture then yes, but that area in one map would be to big, and would be hard to select just 10 airplanes for whole period. For all that you would have to have atleast 3 maps ( one tunis sicily and malta, one sicily and south to central italy, and one central to north italy ).

 

 

 

The planeset for the suggested maps would be almost identical, apart from a 1941-42 Battle of Malta, which can't really be done because of limitations in size of bomber formations.

 

This is being discussed on other threads as well... We would run out of luftwaffe, Reggia Aeronautica aircraft to have 5 vs 5 for so many possible maps.

 

In my opinion, 1C should add a new format of purchasing content to go along with the existing format.

 

If we had a Battle of Sicily with 5 vs 5 plus 2 x collector aircraft - 1C could sell that as a new Battle in the existing format. And then if there is enough potential sales for an Italian Map pack to cover Italy north of Rome, they could add just the Map and sell it seperately, plus maybe adding a further 2 collectors aircraft.

 

Something like:

 

Il-2 Battle of Sicily

 

Spitfire Mk.VIII

Hawker Hurricane Mk.IIb or Mk.IV

P-51b Mustang

P-47 Razorback

DC-3 Dakota (for dropping Paratroopers)

 

Collectors:

Bristol Beaufighter

 

VS

 

Macchi Mc.205 Veltro

Fiat G.55 Centauro

Reggiane Re.2001 Falco

Me109 G4 tropical

Junkers Ju87D5

 

Collectors:

Me410 Heavy Fighter

 

Then they could release a Map only DLC for Italy (North of Rome) and a couple more collectors aircraft...

 

I think this solves the issue of having to find 5 vs 5 for every Map release.

 

Any thoughts?

Edited by Algy-Lacey
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13 hours ago, LukeFF said:

 

I think the topic's been beaten to death and that the devs will tell us what they are doing next when they're ready to. 

 

I hear ya.

 

I think that it does show the developers that there is a lot of interest in an Italian Battle, especially if PTO can't happen so soon.

And it's kind of like a wish list, I've learnt quite a lot in draughting up my proposal, and it's fun to fantasize.

 

S!

Algy

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Algy-Lacey said:

 

Hello 77.CountZero,

 

I really like your outline of a late war Italian Battle. It still leaves the possibility of an earlier Operation Husky: Battle of Sicily but Italy 44-45 includes the beautiful mountain scenery of central Italy and covers the Alps.

 

S!

Algy

 

The planeset for the suggested maps would be almost identical, apart from a 1941-42 Battle of Malta, which can't really be done because of limitations in size of bomber formations.

 

This is being discussed on other threads as well... We would run out of luftwaffe, Reggia Aeronautica aircraft to have 5 vs 5 for so many possible maps.

 

In my opinion, 1C should add a new format of purchasing content to go along with the existing format.

 

If we had a Battle of Sicily with 5 vs 5 plus 2 x collector aircraft - 1C could sell that as a new Battle in the existing format. And then if there is enough potential sales for an Italian Map pack to cover Italy north of Rome, they could add just the Map and sell it seperately, plus maybe adding a further 2 collectors aircraft.

 

Something like:

 

Il-2 Battle of Sicily

 

Spitfire Mk.VIII

Hawker Hurricane Mk.IIb or Mk.IV

P-51b Mustang

P-47 Razorback

DC-3 Dakota (for dropping Paratroopers)

 

Collectors:

Bristol Beaufighter

 

VS

 

Macchi Mc.205 Veltro

Fiat G.55 Centauro

Reggiane Re.2001 Falco

Me109 G4 tropical

Junkers Ju87D5

 

Collectors:

Me410 Heavy Fighter

 

Then they could release a Map only DLC for Italy (North of Rome) and a couple more collectors aircraft...

 

I think this solves the issue of having to find 5 vs 5 for every Map release.

 

Any thoughts?

 

The way i see it CloD with TF6 can do Tunisia, El Alamain and Malta+Sicily if they go by timeline, so if BoX dont wont to step on their turff then its best to avoid Husky untill see whats up with TF5.

 

So thats why i focused on areas in Italy.

 

If this is ment to be sugestion for Battle for Sicily then planset dont fit.

"Il-2 Battle of Sicily

 

Spitfire Mk.VIII  - ok

Hawker Hurricane Mk.IIb or Mk.IV - Mkii ok but no MkIV come later when allieds landed and were in Italy, 

P-51b Mustang - no D or even B/C models in landings on sicily P-38F or G models would fitt there

P-47 Razorback - no P47 also, P40F or L models would fit

DC-3 Dakota (for dropping Paratroopers) - ok, if not in game already by then

 

Collectors:

Bristol Beaufighter - ok 

 

VS

 

Macchi Mc.205 Veltro - ok 

Fiat G.55 Centauro - no was not there as far i know, go for Re-2002 or SM.79 to have one bomber

Reggiane Re.2001 Falco - ok

Me109 G4 tropical - ok but i would go for Fw-190A4 and add trop fillter as modification for existing 109G4

Junkers Ju87D5 - ok 

 

Collectors:

Me410 Heavy Fighter - ok but i dont know if their bases would fit map area"

 

So for Husky you would have to have map area that covers East area of Tunisia and atleast parts of west Calabria, with Sicily and Malta and thouse few small islands, thats around 600x400km and its not so big, and 50% is atleast sea ( and would be used for  early Battle of Malta scenarious with airplanes already in other DLCs). But i think CloD would do that with for example TF7 if TF5 is able to sell good that they make TF6, thats why i think in MTO they can do 1944-45 timelines in BoX and give CloD enought thinks to do early there untill they see what will happend after TF5 is out.

 

 

Edited by 77.CountZero
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I dream of this coming true but am also (more) interested in the earlier war Italy/Northern Africa scenario . . . . . I know, I know

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2 hours ago, 77.CountZero said:

 

If this is ment to be sugestion for Battle for Sicily then planset dont fit.

"Il-2 Battle of Sicily

 

Spitfire Mk.VIII  - ok

Hawker Hurricane Mk.IIb or Mk.IV - Mkii ok but no MkIV come later when allieds landed and were in Italy, 

P-51b Mustang - no D or even B/C models in landings on sicily P-38F or G models would fitt there

P-47 Razorback - no P47 also, P40F or L models would fit

DC-3 Dakota (for dropping Paratroopers) - ok, if not in game already by then

 

Collectors:

Bristol Beaufighter - ok 

 

VS

 

Macchi Mc.205 Veltro - ok 

Fiat G.55 Centauro - no was not there as far i know, go for Re-2002 or SM.79 to have one bomber

Reggiane Re.2001 Falco - ok

Me109 G4 tropical - ok but i would go for Fw-190A4 and add trop fillter as modification for existing 109G4

Junkers Ju87D5 - ok 

 

 

Thanks for educating me on planeset, you know a lot more about types / theatres than I.

So if it was strictly authentic there would be no Fiat G.55? No P-51b? In that case the wind has gone from my sails with regards to Sicily!

 

I would still love to see a Northern Italy Battle, but thought that the Italians had capitulated by this time in late 43-44? I thought that it was mainly RAF / USAF against Germans based in Italy and Luftwaffe with very limited numbers of Aviazione Nazionale Repubblicana (ANR)?

 

I need to get myself a good history book on the Air war in Italy of that timeframe.

 

S!

Algy

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This one is still posible in maybe 4 years (as well probably go back to finish late east front after BoN), proposed airplanes are still free and not yet in game, and we will run out of axis fighters to have at some point so i think Italy 43 is good option to go to. Probably also good chance to have some carriers outside of pto and map area would just be dream to play over.

Edited by 77.CountZero

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I could see them doing a Italian map with 3-4 Italian fighters as a soft or light module, since we should have acft from the us and German to fill out the roster from BON.  Maybe add a P40F/L and early 38, but we also have p39s and spit 5s and 9s too (spit 9 was operational in 1943) just an idea 

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This is mostly as if they wont to stay in europe they will have no where to go with 10 airplans per dlc and 5 v 5, and new maps are all most flat, this one would be Kuban map on stereoids. From the performance perspective you get Spit8 and Mc205 and other airplanes are mostly versions of already in game with few new models.

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