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II./JG77_motoadve

Airplane FM after being damaged.

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Airplane FM, since the updated DM most people notice a plane full of holes keeps flying the same as if nothing , before you die so quick or kill so unrealistically quick it was not even important.

 

For comparison a real plane just by being out of rig  flies slower , tries to drop a wing and many times you need to fly with the yoke or stick , and even rudder in some cases turned to one side to be able to fly straight.(Out of rig means a surface is not aligned, could be flap, aileron, elevator, or rudder, and trim is not enough to compensate for out of alignment, a common one is flap lowered a bit on one side.)

A plane full of holes should fly horribly, have lots of drag,  be more difficult to control, can stall at higher speeds, or enter a spin easily if reducing speed, harder to land too.

I think this is a subject most everyone agrees we are missing.

 

Loving the new DM, hope it gets complimented with the airplane being hit loosing some performance.

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Just now, 392FS_Jred said:

It does though.

Yes , its not consistent and quite uncommon though , I had a Yak with holes on the right wing that was trying to drop a wing and I thought this is pretty good, but had  many 109s  and P 47s full of holes flying like nothing.

 

Should affect all planes, maybe only modeled in the wooden wings for now?

Has anyone lost performance in other planes?

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1 minute ago, II./JG77_motoadve said:

Yes , its not consistent and quite uncommon though , I had a Yak with holes on the right wing that was trying to drop a wing and I thought this is pretty good, but had  many 109s  and P 47s full of holes flying like nothing.

 

Should affect all planes, maybe only modeled in the wooden wings for now?

Has anyone lost performance in other planes?

Trust me I've been shot at a LOT in mp, in just about every single plane, every plane has degrading performance depending on what is blown off the plane. When flaps, and ailerons and other things start falling off, the plane is effected, holes definitely have an effect on lift as well. I had to coax a yak 1- 69 back home with a broken aileron and holes all over and it was not flying normally, it was actually really cool, the rods had broken in the right aileron so it was just flapping in the wind and when I stopped it just fell down. Just shows how the game really does simulate an atmosphere in the game. That aileron was fluttering in the actual wind.

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Is this

Just now, 392FS_Jred said:

Trust me I've been shot at a LOT in mp, in just about every single plane, every plane has degrading performance depending on what is blown off the plane. When flaps, and ailerons and other things start falling off, the plane is effected, holes definitely have an effect on lift as well. I had to coax a yak 1- 69 back home with a broken aileron and holes all over and it was not flying normally, it was actually really cool, the rods had broken in the right aileron so it was just flapping in the wind and when I stopped it just fell down. Just shows how the game really does simulate an atmosphere in the game. That aileron was fluttering in the actual wind.

 

Was this with the old DM or the new one?

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3 minutes ago, II./JG77_motoadve said:

Is this

 

Was this with the old DM or the new one?

That particular flight with the yak was on the new dm.

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Tthe effect is too subtle though on most planes IMO. As has been mentioned icing on wings gives a good idea on how affected lift can be by some alteration to airflow.

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27 minutes ago, II./JG77_motoadve said:

 

I think this is a subject most everyone agrees we are missing.

 

Nope! Certainly don't agree. It's been there since day one and is still there now. It varies considerably dependant on the type, position and extent of the damage but I've always found it a very good feature and a challenge to get a badly damaged A/C back to safe airspace.

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1 minute ago, Elem said:

Nope! Certainly don't agree. It's been there since day one and is still there now. It varies considerably dependant on the type, position and extent of the damage but I've always found it a very good feature and a challenge to get a badly damaged A/C back to safe airspace.

Its not very noticeable and too subtle the way it is now then, got hit in a 109 in TAW in flew 20 min back to base with both wings full of holes like if nothing had happened.

It definitely should have added drag and have some control issues and it didnt , even for landing was not an issue at all.

If its modeled already maybe make it more noticeable, this is a simulation,  real planes with holes should not fly that nice, depending on amount of damage , they should fly horribly , slower and be hard to control.

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1 minute ago, II./JG77_motoadve said:

Its not very noticeable and too subtle the way it is now then, got hit in a 109 in TAW in flew 20 min back to base with both wings full of holes like if nothing had happened.

It definitely should have added drag and have some control issues and it didnt , even for landing was not an issue at all.

If its modeled already maybe make it more noticeable, this is a simulation,  real planes with holes should not fly that nice, depending on amount of damage , they should fly horribly , slower and be hard to control.

I think we must be flying different sims?

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6 minutes ago, Elem said:

I think we must be flying different sims?

Different views, or expectations I have thousands of hrs of real flying time , and have flown some out of rig/bad planes and the way the planes behave here after getting damaged are comparable to a plane out of rig if at all, and this is why they can keep fighting in the game.

If its just a few holes , then yes, ok I have no problem with it , in case of lost ailerons , the FM change is great.

But plane full of holes not so much.

 

Holes should add lots more drag /vibration and make it more a challenge to keep in the air.

Maybe too difficult to model, or not worth it, or as have been said before , the graphic representation is not the same as the damage your airplane is getting.

 

I really like the new DM, its something that would be icing on the cake and make it even more realistic if updated.

 

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26 minutes ago, II./JG77_motoadve said:

Its not very noticeable and too subtle the way it is now then, got hit in a 109 in TAW in flew 20 min back to base with both wings full of holes like if nothing had happened.

It definitely should have added drag and have some control issues and it didnt , even for landing was not an issue at all.

If its modeled already maybe make it more noticeable, this is a simulation,  real planes with holes should not fly that nice, depending on amount of damage , they should fly horribly , slower and be hard to control.

Every time I get shot up it alters the plane's flight model, no question. Last night I had to hold my stick over halfway to the left and hold constant left rudder to keep straight after taking a cannon round in my wing. Even at full throttle and RPM my airspeed was reduced by 100 km/h.

HOWEVER the problem is that the visible damage to the wings - the graphics - don't always match up with the damage calculated by the flight model. So sometimes if the wing appears heavily damaged its not. Take a few light MGs that poke holes in your wing and you can trim it out and barely notice it, but the graphics might show a gaping hole in your wing.

Hopefully they improve the visual modeling of damage at some point so this disconnect isn't a problem.

EDIT: damage referenced above did not cause me to lose any control surfaces, this was purely from damage to one wing reducing lift and increasing drag. 

Edited by RedKestrel
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11 minutes ago, RedKestrel said:

Every time I get shot up it alters the plane's flight model, no question. Last night I had to hold my stick over halfway to the left and hold constant left rudder to keep straight after taking a cannon round in my wing. Even at full throttle and RPM my airspeed was reduced by 100 km/h.

HOWEVER the problem is that the visible damage to the wings - the graphics - don't always match up with the damage calculated by the flight model. So sometimes if the wing appears heavily damaged its not. Take a few light MGs that poke holes in your wing and you can trim it out and barely notice it, but the graphics might show a gaping hole in your wing.

Hopefully they improve the visual modeling of damage at some point so this disconnect isn't a problem.

EDIT: damage referenced above did not cause me to lose any control surfaces, this was purely from damage to one wing reducing lift and increasing drag. 

This is the real issue that is throwing people off I would assume.

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8 minutes ago, Rattlesnake said:

Testing has confirmed

Testing?

Confirmed?

Sounds a tad too "official" to me.

Isn't it more like "the prevailing opinion in this thread tends to believe that the MK 108 should have more power"?

Nothing more, nothing less.

 

:drinks:

Mike

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10 minutes ago, Rattlesnake said:

Testing has confirmed that at least sometimes hits that should be enormously damaging don’t hinder flying and maneuvering.

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/41665-3cm-mk108-historical-test-data-vs-ingame-test-data/

Honestly that's a separate issue. The issue there is that the hits are allegedly not doing enough damage within the model. ie a MK108 should/should not do x damage.

The issue here is that there is allegedly a problem fo the DM recording damage but that damage not properly affecting the flight model. i.e x damage done to my wing causes my wing to drop and to lose speed.

What we go from is Real Life > Damage Model > Flight Model.

Real Life > Damage model is about whether the appropriate damage is done by the various weapons. Damage Model > Flight Model is about whether the damage is interacting properly with the flight model.

So the damage model may model a 5 cm hole in the wing from a MK108 round, when people are saying it should be 30 cm or take the wing off. 

This is about whether the 5 cm hole in the wing is affecting the flight model properly, not what the size of the hole should be. They interact, but its a different issue. 

At least, that's where I'm coming from here.

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1 hour ago, SAS_Storebror said:

Testing?

Confirmed?

Sounds a tad too "official" to me.

Isn't it more like "the prevailing opinion in this thread tends to believe that the MK 108 should have more power"?

Nothing more, nothing less.

 

:drinks:

Mike

There is literally video in the link of another player shooting a Spitfire I’m flying in the wing. I then maneuver it with no problems at all until I try a high speed dive and pull-up. Also attached are photographs of an actual Spitfire tested by being shot with a Mk 108, which at the very least results in massive amounts of wing skin being blown off. I must conclude that either you did not look at this very clear, apples-to-apples gun comparison or you are being disingenuous.

 

General tip for the player base: If one doesn’t want one’s wing blown off by a 30mm, or any other gun package for that matter, then one should consider picking up “Fighter Combat” by Shaw and actually learning about defensive ACM and reversals, as opposed to complaining until the devs relent and start issuing everyone rubber bullets.

 

Edited by Rattlesnake

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4 hours ago, 392FS_Jred said:

This is the real issue that is throwing people off I would assume.

 

Actually I'd expect holes in a wing to decrease lift quite a bit due to disruptions in airflow or even the detachment of airflow over these spots.

Fact is in almost no cases I just roll in to one side with max stick deflection against it. I did a test with Il-2s and only shot their right wing. In ALL cases were the Il-2s able to keep straight and level flight if controls had not jammed. Usually the wing would separate after 8 - 10 Mg151/20 hits before the plane became unable to fly level. Thats simply off. Only at a very high speed would one have been able to keep flying straight with an oblitereated wing.

 

I give the icing example again: Just a medium amount of ice makes a plane behave very dangerously.

 

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so the consensus is that there's a misalignment somewhere, however where exactly remains to be an open subject.

 

1)  out of sync visual damage (huge holes in the wings)  from the  FM.  It seems that even if visually there's a registered hit+ picture of a big hole !=  FM has received the necessary input to simulate additional drag due to some technical glitch

 

2)  or  same as above, however the visual DM simply does not linearly translate into affected FM.

 

no matter how you slice it there's still a perceived gap by a human player.

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On 12/12/2018 at 5:19 PM, SAS_Storebror said:

Testing?

Confirmed?

Sounds a tad too "official" to me.

Isn't it more like "the prevailing opinion in this thread tends to believe that the MK 108 should have more power"?

Nothing more, nothing less.

 

:drinks:

Mike

Soo. 
You saw the recording of a spitfire undeniably taking a 30mm to the centre of its wing

with 0% impact on its level flight performance... 
I am not entirely sure how this qualifies as "opinion" seeing as its a 100% an ingame test and shows that happening. Or am i mistaken? is the test biased or "rigged"? Maybe its just "fake news" and all a part of the wunderwaffle's plan for 30mm deathstars? You tell me! 

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6 minutes ago, EAF_Sunde said:

Soo. 
You saw the recording of a spitfire undeniably taking a 30mm to the centre of its wing

with 0% impact on its level flight performance... 
I am not entirely sure how this qualifies as "opinion" seeing as its a 100% an ingame test and shows that happening. Or am i mistaken? is the test biased or "rigged"? Maybe its just "fake news" and all a part of the wunderwaffle's plan for 30mm deathstars? You tell me! 

 

The problem with single instances like this is that the game uses an RNG. (Random Number Generator). A fairly large piece of the plane is identified as being hit, and the RNG determines the damage from a predetermined range or distribution.  So a hit on the extreme edge of the wing that might have passed through entirely and exploded outside the structure in RL, might roll a high damage score in the RNG.  Similarly a hit smack in the middle that would have caused great damage in RL might roll a low number.

 

Over a large enough sample, the average damage and the range of outcomes might match well between the game and RL.  But not in individual cases.  One solution to  this by making the damage model much more complex, with many more components that can be individually hit. But that comes with ever increasing computational needs.  Just making every hit have the damage effects of the most effective hits is not a good solution. 

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4 minutes ago, unreasonable said:

 

The problem with single instances like this is that the game uses an RNG. (Random Number Generator). A fairly large piece of the plane is identified as being hit, and the RNG determines the damage from a predetermined range or distribution.  So a hit on the extreme edge of the wing that might have passed through entirely and exploded outside the structure in RL, might roll a high damage score in the RNG.  Similarly a hit smack in the middle that would have caused great damage in RL might roll a low number.

 

Over a large enough sample, the average damage and the range of outcomes might match well between the game and RL.  But not in individual cases.  One solution to  this by making the damage model much more complex, with many more components that can be individually hit. But that comes with ever increasing computational needs.  Just making every hit have the damage effects of the most effective hits is not a good solution. 

 

 

Even AOE damage model would be less computationally intensive and probably more believable than the current frag based ray-casting.

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2 hours ago, LukeFF said:

And so the discussion starts to go downhill. 

The discussion is actually pretty much on track, a few people have contributed with some rather meaningless comments i responded to one, but its hardly derailed yet.
Compared to some shitstorms its actually very on track (if you'd exclude yours and my comment here obviously). 

Edited by EAF_Sunde
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On 12/12/2018 at 2:53 PM, 216th_Jordan said:

 

Actually I'd expect holes in a wing to decrease lift quite a bit due to disruptions in airflow or even the detachment of airflow over these spots.

Fact is in almost no cases I just roll in to one side with max stick deflection against it. I did a test with Il-2s and only shot their right wing. In ALL cases were the Il-2s able to keep straight and level flight if controls had not jammed. Usually the wing would separate after 8 - 10 Mg151/20 hits before the plane became unable to fly level. Thats simply off. Only at a very high speed would one have been able to keep flying straight with an oblitereated wing.

 

I give the icing example again: Just a medium amount of ice makes a plane behave very dangerously.

 

Location of the disruption and shape is critical, both of the disruption and of the wing.

 

The Beech 18's I flew could carry a couple of inches of rough ice with only a minor increase in stall speed. The Canadair Regional Jet/Challenger Series I also flew had several accidents caused by very minor frost accumulations.

 

In general, disrupted airflow near the wing root is much more critical than further outboard. The majority of the lift is produced at the root and decreases as you move out to the tips.

 

There was an incident of a stowaway years ago on a small turboprop. He tried to hitch a ride laying on top the wing between the engine and fuselage. The pilots reported the aircraft had difficulty climbing at all after takeoff and then suddenly behaved normally. This coincided with where, they later discovered, the man fell off. 

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1 hour ago, =475FG=DAWGER said:

There was an incident of a stowaway years ago on a small turboprop. He tried to hitch a ride laying on top the wing between the engine and fuselage. The pilots reported the aircraft had difficulty climbing at all after takeoff and then suddenly behaved normally. This coincided with where, they later discovered, the man fell off. 

 

That sounds horrible, do you have a link by any chance? It makes a lot of sense what you are saying, and I was being a bit too general. But yes, I'd expect a wing filled with multiple 20mm impact holes to lose so much lift that it cannot be canceled out with ailerons (this of course changes when both wings are hit) alone. Thats why my general perception is that hits to the wings decrease lift insufficiently. It seems that drag is modelled rather well though.

 

I know the pictures of planes flying with only half a wing, but usually this was only possible at rather high speeds and because the wingroot always seemed to be undamaged and produced lift accordingly.

 

Now it might appear that its a big thing for me, its not, the simulation is great already, just would make it even better and even more believable (also it really shows if a pilot is skilled enough to still keep a plane flying with some tricks, which is great fun)

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Berloga.. 3x hits from MK108 to the right wing.. Yak still fighting without problem with the controls.. 

2018_12_26__19_43_37.thumb.jpg.dee553194def9da962802ad17107920a.jpg

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Very interesting! I also had three hits (even 37 mm). The Bf seems to have something in common with the Yak.

2018_12_3__14_4_14.png

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18 hours ago, MK_RED13 said:

Berloga.. 3x hits from MK108 to the right wing.. Yak still fighting without problem with the controls.. 

2018_12_26__19_43_37.thumb.jpg.dee553194def9da962802ad17107920a.jpg

That is Stalinwood tavarish! How can you doubt the glorious Soviet engineering! Into Gulag with you!

 

Now really, any HE shell relying on chemical energy to do the damage is flawed, this needs remodelling. DM of the aircraft is good though, IMHO.

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It's always amazing how many claim that these damaged planes continue "to fight without a problem". The loss of speed alone these damages will incur is big enough to render them unable to fight back in any capable form. If of course, you fly your plane like a mad man and waste all your energy advantage at the same rate as the damaged opponent, things feel less severe. That's particularly visible on Berloga where you have german flyers b&z an opponent, then pull STRAIGHT up into a prop hang for a hammerhead. Then often, they miss their target, drop below them and they get shot at in a cut turn or in the dive (or they get shot on the prop hang). Seen it multiple times, done it to german flyers a couple of times myself.

 

tl;dr: not capitalising on the disadvantage inflicted on the damaged opponent is often the primary culprit for why these damages feel insignificant.

 

Further: if you damage both wings of an opponent to a similar degree, you equalise the lift between them, making it easier for them to control the plane still (while also losing more speed advantage again). The Spitfire is particularly sensitive to that, its tendency to roll and stall in a turn reduces as damage to both wings equalises. 

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On 1/2/2019 at 10:28 AM, Mauf said:

It's always amazing how many claim that these damaged planes continue "to fight without a problem". The loss of speed alone these damages will incur is big enough to render them unable to fight back in any capable form. If of course, you fly your plane like a mad man and waste all your energy advantage at the same rate as the damaged opponent, things feel less severe.

 

Always amazing that it´s the SP only brigade enlightening us with their usual wisdom again

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9 hours ago, =EXPEND=SchwarzeDreizehn said:

Always amazing that it´s the SP only brigade enlightening us with their usual wisdom again

 

Well, they were proven right when the devs confirmed that the DM should be tested only in SP. And yet, before that, the MP-only brigade was telling everyone that testing the DM in SP was irrelevant. 

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3 hours ago, LukeFF said:

 

Well, they were proven right when the devs confirmed that the DM should be tested only in SP. And yet, before that, the MP-only brigade was telling everyone that testing the DM in SP was irrelevant. 

Obviously to rule out people with poor internet skewing results... Its not like MP testing is irrelevant, in fact it might be that the networking of this game could be attributed to some of the perceived  issues with the damage model...

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On 12/12/2018 at 9:31 AM, II./JG77_motoadve said:

 

Airplane FM, since the updated DM most people notice a plane full of holes keeps flying the same as if nothing , before you die so quick or kill so unrealistically quick it was not even important.

 

For comparison a real plane just by being out of rig  flies slower , tries to drop a wing and many times you need to fly with the yoke or stick , and even rudder in some cases turned to one side to be able to fly straight.(Out of rig means a surface is not aligned, could be flap, aileron, elevator, or rudder, and trim is not enough to compensate for out of alignment, a common one is flap lowered a bit on one side.)

A plane full of holes should fly horribly, have lots of drag,  be more difficult to control, can stall at higher speeds, or enter a spin easily if reducing speed, harder to land too.

I think this is a subject most everyone agrees we are missing.

 

Loving the new DM, hope it gets complimented with the airplane being hit loosing some performance.

Because the listing of the aircraft from minor damage is not and never was realistic. 

 

You can still causes a plane to act funny from enough structural damage. Key word being "enough" A dozen mg holes in your wing would not causes the airplane to list hard in the direction of the wing. 

personally, I think they new damage model changes are a big improvement. I have not seen any major structural damage that did not cause flight issues when it was appropriate. 

 

This is in stark contrast to the old damage model, which causes alot of tactical problems because all the shooter had to do was clip the enemy once to hamstring their airplane. The slightest damage to the airframe was essentially game over, even all the opponent was trying to do was run. 

 

The new damage model remains highly lethal, while not being as absurdly fragile as before. 

Edited by Fumes
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With the old DM you could simply spray and pray with rifle cal nose MG's from a high distance, and if you got even a few hits the target would slow about 20 kph. I hated that with a passion and I'm very happy with the new DM in this regard.

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To me the biggest issue is the DM! I (like many of the ppl here) read books on the subject and everything I read says that typical a 3 sec burst of fire that hit is sufficient to bring down a fighter. We are not talking about the 30mm the G-6 had in late '43 either.

 

So the issue here is why after this last update does it takes 1/2 my ammo to bring down a yak (...maybe a 109 in your case)?

 

My only guess is in creating the DM of the P-47, they porked the DM of all other aircraft.

 

I know you already have my BOK, BOM, BOS and BOBP money so you don't care developers - but you might what to fix this.

 

I get the fact that it would not be much fun for such realism, but 45 rounds hitting a fighter aircraft anywhere and it is still flyable is absurd and almost comical. If you are going to call this an arcade game, that is one thing - but an semi authentic simulator, I have to beg to differ on that.

Edited by JG7_X-Man
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2 hours ago, JG7_X-Man said:

To me the biggest issue is the DM! I (like many of the ppl here) read books on the subject and everything I read says that typical a 3 sec burst of fire that hit is sufficient to bring down a fighter. We are not talking about the 30mm the G-6 had in late '43 either.

 

So the issue here is why after this last update does it takes 1/2 my ammo to bring down a yak (...maybe a 109 in your case)?

 

My only guess is in creating the DM of the P-47, they porked the DM of all other aircraft.

 

I know you already have my BOK, BOM, BOS and BOBP money so you don't care developers - but you might

what to fix this.

 

I get the fact that it would not be much fun for such realism, but 45 rounds hitting a fighter aircraft anywhere and it is still flyable is absurd and almost comical. If you are going to call this an arcade game, that is one thing - but an semi authentic simulator, I have to beg to differ on that.

 

They do go down, you just dont see the wing fall off  or brake apart in front of you like before.(which was really arcade)

Just get good hits and leave, they are damaged and go down.

Before it was a joke wings coming off like cardboard planes, hope we never go back to that DM.

Edited by II./JG77_motoadve
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