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You really need to do something about extraterrestrial gunners

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They just don't care about the 20mm shells storm exploding all around them on their aircraft, and even more when it's just been shot down. At this time, they say "[edited] human capability, resistance, and self control, i'm a super hero" and they manage to kill your pilot few seconds AFTER while you're flying away them at 600/700km/h.

 

I'm posting this like this because I admit, I'm seriously pissed off cause I was doing my best to keep my pilot alive on TAW. I engaged this Pe2 very carefully, from six yes, but at very very high speed on a steep dive... but nothing to do. Actually, everytime I attacked a bomber (I mean, a Pe2, because btw, I never recieved a single shot while flying red side and attacking german bombers from the beginning of the campaign), all the times with very high speed, most of the time I was hited by a very precise shot (fuel leak or engine damage). 

 

But please, understand I'm not posting this only because I'm pissed off to loose a streak on a campaign. This is a real request: It's not normal that when you're attacking correctly (not from dead six and slow/medium speed) a bomber, you still have to prey and count on luck to not being shot down. We should prey for this ONLY when we're not attacking correctly.

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There is definitely a vast difference between German and Russian (or better say Pe2) gunners. While being a Russian plane, pretty much all German attack aircraft are rather easy prey. On the other side, trying to attack a Pe2 is more of a 50:50 kind of situation, you are lucky if you don't get shot down, you are very lucky if you don't get serious damage. Seems very odd tbh

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It's a good thing you made this thread since this has never been brought up before.

Also I'm sure nobody has ever mentioned AI setting on the part of the mission builder/server before.

Good job.

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I think keeping your distance is the key. I don't know what is the magic number though: 300 meters, 400 meters, 500+ meters ?

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3 minutes ago, Gambit21 said:

It's a good thing you made this thread since this has never been brought up before.

Also I'm sure nobody has ever mentioned AI setting on the part of the mission builder/server before.

Good job.

 

The discrepancy between gunners of certain aircraft (Pe2 <> rest) can't be changed by mission builder/server....

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They're omnipotent - the Pe-2 bottom gunner - who aims through a periscope - will be aware of you attacking head-on and can and often will shoot you as you pass by the millisecond you enter his field of fire. Gunners also dont care about G forces or maneuvering.

 

German gunners arent as lethal because almost without exception their guns are mere 8 mm MGs, and because Pe-2 is so fast meaning attacking fighter spends more time in fire and has to attack from behind more often. Try attacking He 111 H-16 from within the top gunners field of fire, though...

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Just now, II./JG77_Manu* said:

 

The discrepancy between gunners of certain aircraft (Pe2 <> rest) can't be changed by mission builder/server....

 

If that discrepancy is because the AI in the Pe-2 is set to "Ace" or "high" it certainly can be.

 

Attack a 110 or HE 111with AI also set to "Ace" and get back to us.

Field of fire as mentioned is a big factor.

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15 minutes ago, II./JG77_Manu* said:

There is definitely a vast difference between German and Russian (or better say Pe2) gunners. While being a Russian plane, pretty much all German attack aircraft are rather easy prey. On the other side, trying to attack a Pe2 is more of a 50:50 kind of situation, you are lucky if you don't get shot down, you are very lucky if you don't get serious damage. Seems very odd tbh

 and still if i attack german bomber from their six i usealy get damaged also, so i attack enemy bombers when they make turn and im 90 deg on their wings and i dont get damaged and get their wings easy.

 

gunners are op thats for sure, and not only for one side its same on both sides, but german 109 is fragile and pe2 has better rear gun, then german bomber on russian fighter, and still you get your engine damaged or even wing cut in russian fighter attacking german bomber from six, so easy solution is dont atack enemy bomber when your on his 6, wait for him to turn or you get in better position, works for me, even with clearly broke ai gunners in this game.

4 minutes ago, LeLv76_Erkki said:

They're omnipotent - the Pe-2 bottom gunner - who aims through a periscope - will be aware of you attacking head-on and can and often will shoot you as you pass by the millisecond you enter his field of fire. Gunners also dont care about G forces or maneuvering.

 

German gunners arent as lethal because almost without exception their guns are mere 8 mm MGs, and because Pe-2 is so fast meaning attacking fighter spends more time in fire and has to attack from behind more often. Try attacking He 111 H-16 from within the top gunners field of fire, though...

yes , they use separate ai bran for each gunner, but gunners still behave like they see 360 deg, and rear gunner knows where you are even if you attack from front, so we have worst of both, demanding ai for gunners and op gunners on bombers, that is all seing and dont care about fire or that his airplane is dewinged or there is 20g on him, he can still just shoot :)

 

Edited by 77.CountZero

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6 minutes ago, LeLv76_Erkki said:

.. Try attacking He 111 H-16 from within the top gunners field of fire, though...

That's the key imho - it's not the Pe-2. It's much more the 13 mm MG - that's a nasty enemy any time, try the He-111 H-16 and the A-20. Combined with a reflex sight in the Pe-2 it becomes a killer.

As with the completely overdone light AAA (not to mention the out-of-earth naval light AAA) it helps realism if mission builders scale down the AI to "low" / "beginner" or whatever. But afaik there is just one AI-setting for the whole plane. So a gunner scaled down means to buy all the disadvantages of a greenhorn-pilot, too.

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AI in everything  knows where you're at, at all times - nothing new there.

The trick is simulating a condition where it doesn't.

 

Pe-2 set to "low" doesn't fix this, but it drastically alters the gunner's accuracy (on all aircraft, artillery etc)

3 minutes ago, 216th_Retnek said:

But afaik there is just one AI-setting for the whole plane. So a gunner scaled down means to buy all the disadvantages of a greenhorn-pilot, too.

 

Corrrect.

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58 minutes ago, Gambit21 said:

It's a good thing you made this thread since this has never been brought up before.

 

Kind of like every P-47 thread.

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52 minutes ago, Gambit21 said:

If that discrepancy is because the AI in the Pe-2 is set to "Ace" or "high" it certainly can be.

Attack a 110 or HE 111with AI also set to "Ace" and get back to us.

Field of fire as mentioned is a big factor.

 

There is absolutely no comparison in gunner accuracy or damage model between 110, Ju88 or He111 and the Pe-2 at any setting in this sim. Especially damage model. Stop pretending there is any equivalence between the two because there isn't. 

 

This is why nobody backs up this claim of equivalency between German bombers and Pe-2 damage model or gunnery accuracy with statistics or tracks from the sim. Interesting, isn't it? On the contrary, online tracks, online stats have been posted ad-nauseam over the months and years regarding this, showing Pe-2 ridiculous feats of gunnery in damaged and maneuvering airplane while soaking up absurd amounts of gunfire.

 

Pe-2 belly sniper, crouches down on his knees bent over looking through goggles and a gun scope in a maneuvering plane, amazingly able to predict your flight path coming out of his blind field of view and calculate lead on an attacking plane going over 400kph and hit it's engine block or pilot with appalling accuracy.

 

Typically shrugged off as "settings" "field of fire" etc etc. or whatever other excuse to dismiss the discrepancy.

 

 

1 hour ago, LeLv76_Erkki said:

They're omnipotent - the Pe-2 bottom gunner - who aims through a periscope - will be aware of you attacking head-on and can and often will shoot you as you pass by the millisecond you enter his field of fire. Gunners also dont care about G forces or maneuvering.

 

Yep, and this is why every inevitable reply in every Pe-2 thread ever of hurr durr don't attack from muh 6 completely misses the point.

 

Never mind the fact that the most effective way of killing B-17 and B-24 over Europe as shown by research was exactly that: attacks from 6 0'clock with 20/30 mm cannons.
 

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Not only are the Pe-2 gunners omnipotent. They are also, and perhap above all - fearless, as befits Soviet Heroes.

I was repeatedly hit by the Peshka gunner when the aircraft was going down severly damaged or burning. Defence was fierce and accurate, despite the fact that Peshka was in nearly vertical configuration with fast autorotation - due to the asymetry after one wing loss..

Once, Vassiliy the Gunner was able to hit me precisely in the engine (one bullet shot - one hit) when his Peshka was lying broken in the wood and I was passing above the wreck.. Guys, its ridiculous how the Pe-2 gunners are "simulated" in the game.. 

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3 minutes ago, Mikojad said:

Once, Vassiliy the Gunner was able to hit me precisely in the engine (one bullet shot - one hit) when his Peshka was lying broken in the wood and I was passing above the wreck.. Guys, its ridiculous how the Pe-2 gunners are "simulated" in the game.. 

 

You must have approached "Vassiliy" from the 6 o'clock position though (big no no) so that's totally accurate and plausible.

 

Or probably it was the "server settings" or Vassiliy's great "field of view" from his down plane in the woods. Practically a dug in AAA position!

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I thought this issue to be fixed since the last patch? aren't the allmighty Pe-2 gunners now just as bad as any others?

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48 minutes ago, CUJO_1970 said:

 

There is absolutely no comparison in gunner accuracy or damage model between 110, Ju88 or He111 and the Pe-2 at any setting in this sim. Especially damage model. Stop pretending there is any equivalence between the two because there isn't. 

 

This is why nobody backs up this claim of equivalency between German bombers and Pe-2 damage model or gunnery accuracy with statistics or tracks from the sim. Interesting, isn't it? On the contrary, online tracks, online stats have been posted ad-nauseam over the months and years regarding this, showing Pe-2 ridiculous feats of gunnery in damaged and maneuvering airplane while soaking up absurd amounts of gunfire.

 

Pe-2 belly sniper, crouches down on his knees bent over looking through goggles and a gun scope in a maneuvering plane, amazingly able to predict your flight path coming out of his blind field of view and calculate lead on an attacking plane going over 400kph and hit it's engine block or pilot with appalling accuracy.

 

Typically shrugged off as "settings" "field of fire" etc etc. or whatever other excuse to dismiss the discrepancy.

 

 

 

Yep, and this is why every inevitable reply in every Pe-2 thread ever of hurr durr don't attack from muh 6 completely misses the point.

 

Never mind the fact that the most effective way of killing B-17 and B-24 over Europe as shown by research was exactly that: attacks from 6 0'clock with 20/30 mm cannons.
 

 

 

Pe2 35
Defensive armament:
Top: 7.62mm machine gun "ShKAS", 750 rounds, 1800 rounds per minute
Belly: 12.7mm machine gun "UB", 200 rounds, 1000 rounds per minute
Side: 7.62mm machine gun "ShKAS", 225 rounds, 1800 rounds per minute


Pe2 87/110:
Defensive armament:
Top: 12.7mm machine gun "UB", 200 rounds, 1000 rounds per minute
Belly: 12.7mm machine gun "UB", 200 rounds, 1000 rounds per minute

Side: 7.62mm machine gun "ShKAS", 225 rounds, 1800 rounds per minute
Top turret: 12.7mm machine gun "UB", 200 rounds, 1000 rounds per minute (modification "series 110")

 

a20
Defensive armament:
Top: 12.7mm machine gun ANM2 .50, 390 rounds, 850 rounds per minute
Belly: 7.92mm machine gun ANM2 .30, 600 rounds, 1150 rounds per minute

 

vs


ju88
Defensive armament:
Nose: 7.92mm machine gun "MG 81", 750 rounds, 1600 rounds per minute
Top: 7.92mm machine gun "MG 81", 1000 rounds, 1600 rounds per minute
Belly: 2 x 7.92mm machine gun "MG 81", 950 rounds, 1600 rounds per minute

 

He111h6
Defensive armament:
Nose: 7.92mm machine gun "MG 15", 600 rounds, 1000 rounds per minute
Top: 7.92mm machine gun "MG 15", 1125 rounds, 1000 rounds per minute
Belly-backward: 7.92mm machine gun "MG 15", 1200 rounds, 1000 rounds per minute
Belly-forward: 7.92mm machine gun "MG 15", 675 rounds, 1000 rounds per minute
Left: 7.92mm machine gun "MG 15", 450 rounds, 1000 rounds per minute
Right: 7.92mm machine gun "MG 15", 450 rounds, 1000 rounds per minute

Nose: 20mm gun "MG FF", 240 rounds, 540 rounds per minute (modification)
Belly-forward: 20mm gun "MG FF", 330 rounds, 540 rounds per minute (modification)


He111h16
Nose: 20mm gun "MG FF", 240 rounds, 540 rounds per minute
Top: 13mm machine gun "MG 131", 1000 rounds, 900 rounds per minute
Belly-backward: 2 x 7.92mm machine guns "MG 81", 850 rounds, 1600 rounds per minute
Left: 7.92mm machine gun "MG 81", 500 rounds, 1600 rounds per minute
Right: 7.92mm machine gun "MG 81", 500 rounds, 1600 rounds per minute


110Es
Defensive armament:
Backward: 7.92mm machine gun "MG 15", 825 rounds, 1000 rounds per minute

 

110g
Defensive armament:
Backward: 2 x 7.92mm machine guns "MG 81", 750 rounds, 1600 rounds per minute


yes nooooooo reason why pe2 gunner will hurt more then most german gunner, nothing obvious comes to mined it must be some conspiracy vs axis.

like it was said befor try attack h16 with 13mms shoting at you in 109 and see how differant is from attacking pe2 with 12,7s shooting at you. Its same with any bombers ai behaves same, diferance is most axis bombers shoot at you with small calibar while pe2s with bigger. Speed of movment and reaction of gunners on both side is same. Its not same when 7mm hits you or 12mm hits you in this game. 

Edited by 77.CountZero
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TBH honest the difference between 8 mm and 12,7 mm is also that one produces (at least somewhat, way or another) believable gunner performance results, the other does not. Its not helped by the fact that Pe-2 is the only Soviet bomber in game = every Soviet bomber has borderline superhuman gunners.

 

When B-25 will get introduced that will be literal flying fortress if gunner AI isnt tuned. :) 

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Do people here really, truly believe that 1C coded one set of logic for German gunners to make them really awful and and another for Russian gunners to make them really good?  Can we please stop that nonsense.

 

When I generate missions almost every plane is a novice except fighters.  On novice the gunners seem real to me.  Sometimes they hit you, mostly not unless you do something stupid.  I fly LW so yes, Russian gunners are not super heroes on novice settings.  If you set the bomber crew to ace then what do you expect?  Next question: why set the bomber crew to ace or veteran?  Are you expecting loops and barrel rolls?  There is simply no need.  Even at novice they hit their targets (when they choose to drop at all).

 

Short version: it's all about the AI setting.

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7 minutes ago, 77.CountZero said:

yes no reason why pe2 gunner will hurt more then most german gunner, nothing obvious comes to mined it must be some conspiracy vs axis.

like it was said befor try attack h16 with 13mms shoting at you in 109 and see how differant is from attacking pe2 with 12,7s shooting at you. Its same with any bombers ai behaves same, diferance is most axis bombers shoot at you with small calibar while pe2s with bigger. Speed of movment and reaction of gunners on both side is same. Its not same when 7mm hits you or 12mm hits you in this game. 

 

Nobody is talking about gun power here and I don't recall anyone saying Vassilliy wasn't shooting a 12.7.

 

Also, your claim that the H-16 gunner behaves the same way as the Pe-2 gunner (top or bottom) is clearly wrong (sorry).

 

Finally - someone always wants to set up some fake, non-historic test method to excuse the Pe-2, like attacking a He-111 with a 109 ("remember to attack from the top where the 13mm can shoot at you!"). I don't give a damn what happens when I fly a 109 against a He-111. I only care what happens when a Pe-2 is attacked by a German fighter or a German bomber is attacked by a Russian fighter - because, you know, that's what's actually happening in the sim.

 

The only way to test accurately (it's already been done) is to reproduce the scenario as accurately as possible. This is normal in testing anything in the real world. In the virtual world we can do that perfectly. Yet here we say "hey let's set up a completely different scenario to test for this other scenario to see if we can draw some conclusion from it.

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18 minutes ago, PatrickAWlson said:

Short version: it's all about the AI setting.

 

This.

 

The expert gunners are deadly in any plane, whether it is a pe-2, a 110 or the (curiously not mentioned, yet also deadly) ju-87. 


 

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1 hour ago, CUJO_1970 said:

 

There is absolutely no comparison in gunner accuracy or damage model between 110, Ju88 or He111 and the Pe-2 at any setting in this sim. Especially damage model. Stop pretending there is any equivalence between the two because there isn't. 

 

My actual testing/experimenting with AI settings tells me different.

 

Have you done similar testing in the editor or are you in fact the one pretending?

25 minutes ago, PatrickAWlson said:

Short version: it's all about the AI setting.

 

Yep

Anything else is inane silliness.

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18 minutes ago, PatrickAWlson said:

Do people here really, truly believe that 1C coded one set of logic for German gunners to make them really awful and and another for Russian gunners to make them really good?  Can we please stop that nonsense.

 

Can you reproduce the quote "1C coded one set of logic for German gunners to make them really awful and and another for Russian gunners to make them really good"

and where it appears anywhere in this thread? Other than where you typed it out yourself? Total straw man.

 

But I will say this - the gunners in this sim are a problem - and that includes the absurd AAA gunners - and everybody knows it. The AAA is another issue altogether.

 

Go read the OP and what is being discussed: it is specifically the complete unrealistic behavior of a gunner that can kill you at any speed, at any angle of attack, regardless of your tactics while he himself is being shot at, in a maneuvering and damaged plane, with the capability to calculate lead and put a bullet in your engine or virtual head while sitting on his knees, looking through goggles and a gun scope.

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I fly against bombers all the time in quick missions.  The claims that Pe2 gunners are more accurate are complete nonsense.  Attacking a flight of 4 Ju88s is like trying to run through a downpour without getting wet.

2 minutes ago, CUJO_1970 said:

 

Can you reproduce the quote "1C coded one set of logic for German gunners to make them really awful and and another for Russian gunners to make them really good"

and where it appears anywhere in this thread? Other than where you typed it out yourself? Total straw man.

 

You should try reading your own posts,  because that is exactly what you are insinuating. 

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12 minutes ago, Gambit21 said:

 

My actual testing/experimenting with AI settings tells me different.

 

Have you done similar testing in the editor or are you in fact the one pretending?

 

 

I've done more testing online for years in this sim as that is the issue the OP is discussing.

 

You are approaching this from a mission builder angle and dismissing the problem as "AI settings" instead of dealing with what the OP is actually talking about.

 

Scores of videos online have been posted about this ongoing issue - we've all seen them - I'd link them, but from an accuracy/plausibility standpoint they are rather embarrassing to watch.

15 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said:

You should try reading your own posts,  because that is exactly what you are insinuating. 

 

I don't have to "try reading my own posts" - I did write them after all and wrote exactly what I meant to say and have been saying for a long time.

 

How you, or anyone else reads into them and assigns false meaning to them as an attempt to derail is your own problem, really.

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The problem is the AI is very good at making deflection snapshots instantly, and quite some times the gunner aims and predicts the impact point before the plane passes through the field of view/firing angle of the gun.

 

The He 111 H-16 isn't as effective as the Pe-2 because it has the tail blocking a bit, but it can be very effective. I have been damaged by H-16s while doing high speed 600 km/h passes in La-5FNs similar to what can happen in a Pe-2 with a 109.

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Its just about AI programming. Actually the bomber doesn't have a defensive mind set, and people trying to attack bombers expecting bombers to go defensive fall in their trap: that's what happens most of the time.

 

If you look carefully at fast bombers (JU88, PE2) and at how they react to the presence of a fighter you will notice when you try to attack the in the rear side (up to 3 and 9 o clock with extrememy high speed) that they will always turn their six to you,, very very quickly with excellent timing and accuracy!

 

 

You are actually getting ambushed!!!

 

one of the most fun move is the zig zaging to expose yourself to the rear jedi gunners, them being red or blue doesn't make any difference. Another one is how quickly the get back speed, even with draggy bombloads attached externally 😀

 

The interesting thing is the  extremely accurate and lightning slowing down and speed up moves they are able to put out of their hat to disturb you  and get you hit by the gunners or forced to collide!

 

What i find also fascinating is that it seems like the gunners and the AI pilot are reacting to your inputs very precisely. If you give some erratic inputs they seem to be unable to react as efficiently. Try to zig zag with erratic rudder and with stick and notice how close you can approach the bomber without being hit. The moment you fly a straight aiming path guess what, the jedis wake up and you're in trouble lol!

 

The best way to attack -lets say a Pe2- is to actually go for the rear dead straight 6 oclock: because then the AI will slow down to trap you with its gunners so you will be able to gain rapidly. The trick is to zig zag erraticaly while you are approaching the bomber, this zig zaging will have a strange effect on the AI : he will stop to fire and even let the weapons in "sleep" mode. If you are lucky you can come as close as for a taran without the bomber firing back a single shot at you lol. the difficulty is of course to fire accurately while zig zaging like crazy, because as soon as you don't put erratic inputs in your ac, AI will wake up and shoot at you with deadly accuracy.

 

But all this is not a tactic i would recommend, it is just a little experiment you can do to learn about the AI programming. Actually i recommend to attack bombers only with height and frontal and only when they are en route to the objective in formation and straight. As long as they go for the mission objective they behave like bombers, once they have dropped, you are facing bunkers with MG nests, they are waiting for you, you are ambushed....

 

Anyway just as the reaction of some fighters crashing in the ground or turning endlessly (as old as AI in rise of flight which had the exact same issue BTW) this bomber thing is really interesting to observe. The best is not to engage, it's what i do, and it actually requires a lot of discipline to control the greedy part in all fighter pilot. Think also that for most of us a realistic bomber behaviour would be piece of cake to shoot down. If Bombers are shot down that easily, then who's gonna fly bombers online, given the fact that people are more looking for kills than to protect the heavies...

 

I sincerly hope for a better AI, and i also would like to thank the team for trying to improve it recently.

Edited by Caudron431Rafale
spelling ,grammar
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48 minutes ago, CUJO_1970 said:

 

How you, or anyone else reads into them and assigns false meaning to them as an attempt to derail is your own problem, really.

 

No, it really isn’t my problem.  Pat was spot on.

2 hours ago, CUJO_1970 said:

 

There is absolutely no comparison in gunner accuracy or damage model between 110, Ju88 or He111 and the Pe-2 at any setting in this sim. Especially damage model. Stop pretending there is any equivalence between the two because there isn't. 

 

This seems pretty clear.

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1 hour ago, CUJO_1970 said:

 

Can you reproduce the quote "1C coded one set of logic for German gunners to make them really awful and and another for Russian gunners to make them really good"

and where it appears anywhere in this thread? Other than where you typed it out yourself? Total straw man.

 

 

How about one from you ... this pretty clearly suggests that He111 gunners behave differently than Pe2 gunners ....

 

1 hour ago, CUJO_1970 said:

Also, your claim that the H-16 gunner behaves the same way as the Pe-2 gunner (top or bottom) is clearly wrong (sorry).

 

 

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The only other possible explanation is that you’re speaking a dialect of gibberish which is not familiar to us.

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I had experienced being shredded by any type of turret at distances including +700m. That the target plane was spinning and going to crash in few seconds hadn't matter at all for the gunner(s). Not even killing them... To the contrary - usually it's just at the end when my plane gets de-winged and/or de-tailed - if anything it feels like there is a "revenge" kill-switch with probability set around 50%.

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3 hours ago, PatrickAWlson said:

 

How about one from you ... this pretty clearly suggests that He111 gunners behave differently than Pe2 gunners ....

 

 

 

 

Do you understand the difference between the He-111 gunner and the fact that it indeed does behave differently by it's very nature than the Pe-2?

 

Pointing out that simple fact that they are indeed different - and behave differently in the sim as a matter of fact - has nothing to do with insinuation. So please, stop it.

3 hours ago, BraveSirRobin said:

The only other possible explanation is that you’re speaking a dialect of gibberish which is not familiar to us.

 

It's pure English, with no passive-aggressive innuendos or double-speak attached.

 

Which is clearly why you are having a hard time grasping it.

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7 minutes ago, CUJO_1970 said:

 

Do you understand the difference between the He-111 gunner and the fact that it indeed does behave differently by it's very nature than the Pe-2?

 

Yes, I understand exactly what you believe is happening.  And it’s almost exactly what Pat said.  The fact that you still don’t understand this is quite funny.

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1 minute ago, BraveSirRobin said:

 

Yes, I understand exactly what you believe is happening.  And it’s almost exactly what Pat said.  The fact that you still don’t understand this is quite funny.

 

You know what would really be funny?

 

You trying to prove your point with online stats and tracks instead of your usual forum ankle-biting.

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1 minute ago, CUJO_1970 said:

 

You know what would really be funny?

 

You trying to prove your point with online stats and tracks instead of your usual forum ankle-biting.

 

Tracks and stats don’t really prove anything about whether the VVS AI is much better that the Luftwaffe AI.  You need to have access to the code.  Also, claiming that the devs are biased is a good way to get banned.  That’s probably the real reason you’re pretending that you’re not doing that.

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Hi all,

 

Keep it civil.

 

The fact that this is a complain subsection doesnt mean members are allowed to complain with false statements and accusations. Rules still apply in this section.

 

Haash

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8 hours ago, CUJO_1970 said:

 

I've done more testing online for years in this sim as that is the issue the OP is discussing.

 

You are approaching this from a mission builder angle and dismissing the problem as "AI settings" instead of dealing with what the OP is actually talking about.

 

Scores of videos online have been posted about this ongoing issue - we've all seen them - I'd link them, but from an accuracy/plausibility standpoint they are rather embarrassing to watch.

 

I don't have to "try reading my own posts" - I did write them after all and wrote exactly what I meant to say and have been saying for a long time.

 

How you, or anyone else reads into them and assigns false meaning to them as an attempt to derail is your own problem, really.

 

...and yet I'm actually not the one with the problem here.

 

I approach the issue for the angle of someone who has spent countless hours in the mission editor, and understands the game logic, at least as much as is possible for someone who isn't a coder and viewing the actual code. I know where that little tick box is in the aircraft properties and I've played with it extensively.

 

No I'm not from the angle of online observations, all of which are predicated on the AI setting that the mission builder used for each aircraft.

Not to mention your feelings.

 

Here in essence is what you're saying...there are a few options.

 

A. The developers inexplicably, despite always being on the ragged edge with regard to resources,  took the time to intentionally code a separate, and "super" AI bot for the Pe-2 only...just for grins. They like it this way, and refuse to change it.

 

B. The developers somehow, inexplicably and accidentally coded a "super" AI bot for the Pe-2 only. Not only this, but despite all the histrionics about it, they haven't even bothered to look at it. They're just ignoring you.

 

C. The developers somehow, inexplicably and accidentally coded a "super" AI bot for the Pe-2 only. They've looked at it, determined that yes it's different, but didn't bother to change it

despite that fact that it would basically be a quick, single sitting cut and paste job from another aircraft.

 

D.  Any controlled tests done by myself with various AI settings and controlled test missions don't matter, because somehow "online" really shows what's going on while offline testing doesn't. Further if you set the AI of the A-20, 110 or any other aircraft to "high" or "Ace" they're not nearly as accurate, and you've demonstrated this via tests using the editor as myself and others have.

 

 

Pick one.

 

Or could it be that all AI bots are coded the same, with the same abilities, and it's the AI setting in the editor that the mission builder in question used governs how each AI bot behaves in each aircraft, and that controlled tests in the editor are more conclusive than online observations and feelings?

 

Hmm...I wonder.

 

 

 

Edited by Gambit21
  • Upvote 4

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How many times have you been killed (PK) by a german gunners (Ju87, 110, H111H6)? I think there is no such eventuality!
How many times a german gunners blew up the plane as he was falling in flames?

Basically it is said that all the gunners (russians and germans) are the same and have the same characteristics and change only the caliber of the machine guns, right?

I can agree (with some doubt) , all the gunners (russians and germans) have the same reaction times, the same aim, the same ability to aim in any condition then all the gunners (russians and germans) are extraterrestrials.

But here there is a problem because it is very easy to be extraterrestrial with a 12.7 mm, while no one notices an extraterrestrial gunner with 7.92mm.

And if all gunners (Germans and Russians) have the same characteristics and created equal, it would be necessary for them to be humanized and make them behave more realistically and more humanly. 

So we will not see any more the gunners who in milliseconds discover the enemy, they aim and kill the pilot of a fighter that goes to over 700 KM \ h or gunners that aren't affected by physics and gravity.

I think everyone can agree!

And so we will no longer see the extraterrestrials behind a machine gun shoot down a multitude of russian planes even while they are falling in flames!

 

S! and sorry for my English

 

Edited by ITAF_Cymao

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I second Gambit's points. Additionally:

 

There are God knows how many incidents of German fighters attacking Pe-2s that take place online and offline every month.  A number of the fluke hits by gunners get posted here as videos.  What does not get posted are all the misses.  All that posting videos of specific such incidents can ever do is to illustrate that something can happen, not the probability of it happening.

 

A 12.7 mm bullet hit has the same energy as about 4.5  7.62 mm hits at the same speed: that is how much more it weighs.  One 12.7 hit is equivalent to getting hit by the whole of a short burst of 7.62 - or better  (from the bullet's pov) in some instances, as it has superior penetration.

 

The firing from spinning, disintegrating planes has been there from RoF days.  It will, I hope, be eliminated in an AI patch eventually. 

Edited by unreasonable
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However getting hit and damaged/shot down by the Peshka gunner is not a "fluke" but rather common. On the other hand its relatively safe to attack an ace AI Ju 88 from dead astern despite of the three very rapid firing guns of the two gunners and them also having good fields of view. Or A-20, or Il-2 even(despite Il-2 gunner also having very good field of fire). Its so bad that I nowadays rarely even bother attacking Peshkas unless an opportunity to do that head-on or directly from the side presents itself. I did not have time to fly last taw but in the one before that I shot down about 12 Peshkas, they were about half of my kills, and did not suffer engine damage only twice - once when I was in Bf 110... Anecdotal? Yes absolutely, but I'm not only one who has similar experiences. OTOH I do not find A-20's gunner to be as lethal as Peshkas and He 111 H-16(top)'s, but I'm sure that is only because the A-20 top gunner's field of fire is very limited and it has to reload after a short burst. I do not believe the AI is any different from plane or faction to another.

 

In addition to perfect the gunners' perfect awareness and it not caring about maneuvering and G forces, another thing that effects this phenomenon must be the gun recoil effects being lackingly modelled. The guns, especially ones held and partially supported by the gunner(ie. not in powered turret) in real life are not perfectly rigid in and their shake, which would depend on the gun and the way its mounted, would add a lot to dispersion to a burst.

 

1 hour ago, ITAF_Cymao said:

How many times have you been killed (PK) by a german gunners (Ju87, 110, H111H6)? I think there is no such eventuality!

 

I have seen all those three shoot down fighters, but its a rare occurrence and in my experience typically needs the enemy fighter to be extra poor shooter and extra greedy to stay in the six for quite some time. Many Soviet fighters have no cockpit armor ahead so even Ju 87 gunner can get lucky.

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2 hours ago, ITAF_Cymao said:

How many times have you been killed (PK) by a german gunners (Ju87, 110, H111H6)? I think there is no such eventuality!

 

You rang?

 

I do not find the Pe2 gunners to be significantly more annoying than the german ones. All of them are annoyingly accurate snipers, level of annoyance dictated by the caliber of the gun.

Edited by Mauf

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