Before IL-2 Pacific, IL-2 Battle of the Meditteranean?

[Algy-Lacey]

Considering the MASSIVE amount of work needed in the development of a Pacific theater of operations - Aircraft Carriers: Landing system (flags), Wires etc... Japanese Naval and Army Aircraft with scarce historical sources of info, few existing Aircraft for theater (P-40, P-38, P-39), Huge new maps...

 

 

I think it would be very prudent for 1C to deliver a 2nd western front release:

 

IL-2 Battle of the Mediterranean (they'd have to think of a new accronym as BoM is already taken!)

This would cover the Naval battles 1941 to 1943, the map could be huge without being too resource hogging, with masses of sea around the Island of Malta as far north as Sicilly for Italian / German airbases and South West for North African Airbases, both Sicily and N. Africa were involved in the Malta campaign, I believe. (See my attached Map) (estimate map size 500,000 Square kilometres)

 

The first battles would be against shipping in the Med, then the air defence of Malta, and finally the invasion of Sicily in 1943.

 

Aircraft already modelled include:

 

Allies:

Spitfire Mk.Vb,

Spitfire Mk.IXc

Curtiss P-40

Lockheed P-38J

Douglas A-20

 

Axis:

Bf109e7

Bf109f2

Bf109f4

Bf109g2

Bf109g4

Bf109g6

Macchi Mc.202

Heinkel He.111

Junkers Ju88

Junkers Ju87

Bf110c4

Bf110g2

 

Aircraft needed to flesh out the lineup:

 

Allies:

Spitfire Mk.Vb Aboukir Filter                     (slight modification of existing Mk.Vb)

Spitfire Mk.Vc Tropical Vokes Filter        (slight modification of existing Mk.Vb)

Spitfire Mk.Vc Trop. 4 x 20mm cannon  (slight modification of existing Mk.Vb)

Spitfire Mk.VIII                                            (extensive modification of existing Mk.IX?)

Seafire Mk.Ib                                               (modification of existing Spitfire Mk.Vb)

Seafire Mk.IIc                                              (modification of Spitfire Mk.Vc)

Hurricane Mk.IIb 'Hurribomber'

Hurricane Mk.IIc 4 x 20mm cannon

Lockheed P-38F through to H                  (modification of existing P-38J)

Consolidated PBY Catalina Maritime Patrol

North American B-25 AI

Consolidated B-24 AI

 

8 x new aircraft

4 x adapted from existing aircraft

 

Axis:

Fiat.G50

Macchi Mc.200 Saetta                             (modification < Macchi Mc.202)

Reggiane Re.2001 Falco

Macchi Mc.205 Veltro                              (modification > Macchi Mc.202)

Bf109's with Tropical Air Filter

CANT z.506 Maritime Patrol

CANT z.1007 Bomber AI

Savoia-Marchetti SM.79 Bomber AI

 

5 x new aircraft

2 x adapted from existing Mc.202

 

16 x Allied aircraft total

19 x Axis aircraft total

 

Ok, that is FAR more aircraft than other IL-2 Battles, but if you only count new aircraft then it's

 

12 x Allied (including variants)

8 x Axis (including variants)

 

The other GREAT thing about this era is that 1C Games could add 1 Aircraft Carrier for the Seafire's to operate from without needing to model 2 x whole fleets of different types of Aircraft Carriers, Battleships, Frigates, Destroyers etc: American, British and Japanese.

 

The number of ships would be vastly reduced for a Battle of the Med, but would allow the created Ship Types to be used again for the Pacific expansion.

 

Ok, I've been working on this post for well over an hour now. Please do post an 'upvote' if you would like to see this development also.

 

 

Algy Lacey

 

 

 

 

How about a smaller Malta campaign. Much more likely than Mediterranean 1941 through to 1943 with areas of North Africa (N.Africa being covered by Team Fusion and CloD)

 

 

I've modified my proposal to suit... (edit)

 

The first battle would be the air defence of Malta 1942

Then combat against shipping in the Med, in the area around Malta 1942

And finally the invasion of Sicily in 1943. (this battle brings the later war Italian fighters into play: Mc.205, G.55 also Allied Spitfire Mk.IX, Spitfire Mk.VIII, P-38J)

 

Aircraft already modelled include:

 

Allies:

Spitfire Mk.Vb

Spitfire Mk.IXc

Curtiss P-40

Lockheed P-38J

Douglas A-20

 

Axis:

Bf109f4

Bf109g4

Macchi Mc.202

Heinkel He111

Junkers Ju88

Junkers Ju87

Bf110g2

 

Aircraft needed to flesh out the lineup:

 

Allies:

Spitfire Mk.Vb Aboukir Filter                     (slight modification of existing Mk.Vb)

Spitfire Mk.Vc Tropical Vokes Filter        ( modification of existing Mk.Vb)

Spitfire Mk.VIII                                            (extensive modification of existing Mk.IX?)

Seafire Mk.IIc                                              (modification of Spitfire Mk.Vc)

Hurricane Mk.IIb 'Hurribomber'

Hurricane Mk.IIc 4 x 20mm cannon

Bristol Beaufighter? Or Fairey Firefly?

Consolidated PBY Catalina Maritime Patrol

North American B-25 AI

Consolidated B-24 AI

 

8 x new aircraft

2 x adapted from existing aircraft

 

Axis:

 

Reggiane Re.2001 Falco                          (No Re.2005 Sagittario, very limited numbers delivered)

Macchi Mc.205 Veltro                              (modification > Macchi Mc.202)

Fiat G.55 Centauro

Bf109f4 with Tropical Air Filter               (slight modification of existing f4)

Bf109g4 with Tropical Air Filter              (slight modification of existing g4)

Fieseler Fi.156 Storch                               (A slow flying field aircraft that would be SO fun to fly!)

CANT z.506 Maritime Patrol

CANT z.1007 Bomber AI

Savoia-Marchetti SM.79 Bomber AI

 

6 x new aircraft

3 x adapted from existing aircraft

 

Only counting new aircraft it's

 

10 x Allied (including variants)

9 x Axis (including variants)

 

The other GREAT thing about this Battlefront is that 1C Games could add 1 Aircraft Carrier (HMS Argos?)for the Seafire's to operate from without needing to model 3 x whole fleets of different types of Aircraft Carriers, Battleships, Frigates, Destroyers etc: American, British and Japanese.

 

The number of ships would be vastly reduced for a Battle of the Med, but would allow the created Ship Types to be used again for the Pacific expansion.

 

Here is my revised Map Area:

 

Edited November 13, 2018 by Algy-Lacey
Revised proposal, now just Malta and Sicily

[DD_Arthur]

1 minute ago, Algy-Lacey said:

Ok, I've been working on this post for well over an hour now.

 

 

Sigh............

[Algy-Lacey]

4 minutes ago, DD_Arthur said:

 

Sigh............

In your opinion, an hour wasted?

[LukeFF]

2 minutes ago, Algy-Lacey said:

In your opinion, an hour wasted?

 

Yes. Jason's already said they aren't modeling the Med. 

[Legioneod]

Just now, LukeFF said:

 

Yes. Jason's already said they aren't modeling the Med. 

Huge mistake imo. Clod needs to die.

[DD_Arthur]

8 minutes ago, Algy-Lacey said:

In your opinion, an hour wasted?

 

Well....yes....and no.  You set out a good case for a great map, albeit pretty ambitious on size and planeset and I'd be delighted and amazed if it was ever built but for the foreseable future it won't be happening for a variety of reasons.

 

I'll let others reel 'em off but yes, you are quite right.  I and many others fancy a med. campaign of some sort.  We've got a viable LW planeset for it right now and something on the time line of Operation Husky would give us all sorts of possibilities including carriers and even radio controlled glider bombs for the axis....but......

 

Nice idea 

Edited November 12, 2018 by DD_Arthur

[sniperton]

1 minute ago, Algy-Lacey said:

In your opinion, an hour wasted?

No, your idea is reasonable, but it should cover a later period, 1943/44, in order not to interfere with the holy cow CloD and to utilize BoBp aircraft.

Only one new map (Southern and/or Central Italy), a few Italian planes, and new ships and naval technologies would be needed. Could be a testbed for the Pacific. I would be very much for it, but I doubt it will happen.

[DD_Arthur]

2 minutes ago, sniperton said:

Only one new map (Southern and/or Central Italy), a few Italian planes, and new ships and naval technologies would be needed. Could be a testbed for the Pacific. I would be very much for it, but I doubt it will happen.

 

See?  It really is a good idea..........

 

btw, I'll have my SM79 flyable please!

Edited November 12, 2018 by DD_Arthur

[EAF19_Marsh]

Mr dear Algy, I would certainly buy this if the team offered it but I have a feeling that it is not happening any time soon.

[-=PHX=-SuperEtendard]

5 hours ago, LukeFF said:

 

Yes. Jason's already said they aren't modeling the Med. 

I could see Italy invasion being possible, separated from CloD's North Africa expansion enough imho.

Edited November 13, 2018 by -=PHX=-SuperEtendard

[Eicio]

4 minutes ago, -=PHX=-SuperEtendard said:

I could see Italy invasion being possible, separated from CloD's North Africa expansion.

 

To be frank I'd prefer the Clod team to work on BoX than Clod, I know it's probably not possible at all but it'd have been better to put new content in BoX and have one big WWII framework rather than many sims that can't get along.

[=27=Davesteu]

Asiatic-Pacific-Theatre has to be next! Preferably Papua New Guinea or even Burma.

[Legioneod]

24 minutes ago, =27=Davesteu said:

Asiatic-Pacific-Theatre has to be next! Preferably Papua New Guinea or even Burma.

New guinea would offer the most bang for your buck. It spanned the whole Pacific war and would allow us to use aircraft from 42-45 including aircraft from Bodenplatte. It would also allow for some carrier action as well depending on how much map they include.

[Finkeren]

If for some reason they needed to do another title before moving to the Pacific and they flat out refused to go back to the Eastern Front, then I think a 1943-44 Italy title would be feasible. 

 

That's a mighty big "if" though. IMHO it is more likely that we skip out of WW2 entirely, if for some reason the PTO still isn't happening, and move on to Korea. 

[sevenless]

I guess based on BoBP sales they need to make a decision what their audience is most likely to buy versus investment of ressources and technical feasibility of the engine. I think with the BoBP planes they check the US market. If it floats there with desired sales numbers PTO might happen. If there is a technical showstopper, we might very well see Italy 44, Normandy 44 or Eastfront 44-45 as a next possible module. We will know for sure in 2019. What is sure for me, however, that I would buy all three possible modules incl. a PTO module. All of them would offer something unique and interesting. 

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

15 minutes ago, Legioneod said:

It spanned the whole Pacific war and would allow us to use aircraft from 42-45 including aircraft from Bodenplatte.

That's way overstretched. It would be useful for 1942 - 1944 scenarios, but certainly no aircraft from Bodenplatte would apply. If you want anything from Bodenplatte than Leyte might be a chance since P-47s and P-38Js served there, though not exactly the models we are getting.

 

Personally, I dont see further postponing of PTO happening. There was plenty of time to dig sufficient documentation and get people to start translating it. 

[No601_Swallow]

Algy - I'm with you! I suspect it would be easier to sell as a "Mini-Battle" - a small map with Malta and the coast of Sicily (like one of the old IL2 maps), with a limited number of ship types and just a couple of new aircraft (Hurricane, possibly Gladiator, I suppose). But it would be - and here's the selling point! - a perfect test bed for... Carrier Operations! You just need one British Carrier (HMS Argos, I think). Thus the team get to try out the mechanics necessary for the PTO, with minimum time and effort!

 

Sold! ?

[Legioneod]

15 minutes ago, =362nd_FS=Hiromachi said:

That's way overstretched. It would be useful for 1942 - 1944 scenarios, but certainly no aircraft from Bodenplatte would apply. If you want anything from Bodenplatte than Leyte might be a chance since P-47s and P-38Js served there, though not exactly the models we are getting.

 

Personally, I dont see further postponing of PTO happening. There was plenty of time to dig sufficient documentation and get people to start translating it. 

P-47s served in New Guinea though most if not all were razorbacks, either way Bodenplatte aircraft could act as a stand in for certain types.

P-38s also served in New Guinea iirc.

 

Either way New Guinea would offer the most variation due to the campaign lasting to the end of the war.

Edited November 12, 2018 by Legioneod

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

Well yes, if you want to stretch it thaaaat much, than yes, 64" MAP P-47 D-28 can represent P-47 D-2. Or we can just get it done properly with machines adequate to time and place. 

[Legioneod]

5 minutes ago, =362nd_FS=Hiromachi said:

Well yes, if you want to stretch it thaaaat much, than yes, 64" MAP P-47 D-28 can represent P-47 D-2. Or we can just get it done properly with machines adequate to time and place. 

More Like D-15 and a mix of others.

And you act as if i'm saying bodenplatte aircraft have to be exclusive, I'd hoe they add more aircraft fit to the period like the D-15. All I'm saying is New Guinea spanned the whole war so theres nothing wrong with having what if scenarios.

 

Also, it's not like the D-28 was the first to have 64" so it wouldn't be too bad.

Edited November 12, 2018 by Legioneod

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

348th Fighter Group in July 1943 had D-2s. Look at the list of crashes and losses: https://www.pacificwrecks.com/aircraft/p-47/index.html 

D-11s, not to even mention D-15s, appeared much later, effectively past evacuation of Japanese Navy from Rabaul and Japanese Army from Wewak.

[AWC]

I think the Mediterranean theatre is a great idea and I agree with everything in your post. However, although theyve already stated they wont model the MTO as long as TF is around, my dream would be to see the Mediterranean AFTER Pacific. This is because theyve already committed to the Pacific and is taking th series in a great direction.

[Legioneod]

16 minutes ago, =362nd_FS=Hiromachi said:

348th Fighter Group in July 1943 had D-2s. Look at the list of crashes and losses: https://www.pacificwrecks.com/aircraft/p-47/index.html 

D-11s, not to even mention D-15s, appeared much later, effectively past evacuation of Japanese Navy from Rabaul and Japanese Army from Wewak.

Regardless, P-47s did see action over New Guinea throughout the war, D-11 and D-15, and D-23s included. I'm talking about the whole campaign from 42-45 not just a small portion of it.

 

Also, what does P-47 losses have to do with anything?

Edited November 12, 2018 by Legioneod

[40plus]

This would get my money a lot quicker than the Pacific would but from what I've read it's a pipe dream, People seem to think that because an old, obsolete game engine is doing the Med, this one can't.

[Blackhawk_FR]

Meditteranean, already seen (at least IL2 1946)

Pacific, already seen (CFS2 and Pacific Fighter)

Battle of britain, already seen (CFS1, IL2 BOB)

East front, more than already seen... (IL2 1946, IL2 GBs)

 

Battle of France, never fu***** ever seen.

Edited November 12, 2018 by F/JG300_Faucon

[-332FG-Gordon200]

I'd love to see the area developed you have outlined in the second map

 However, you overlooked a valuable asset for the region to be added. Tanks

The Ju52  should also be included for the axis list of available aircraft.

[Legioneod]

45 minutes ago, F/JG300_Faucon said:

Battle of France, never fu***** ever seen.

Would be interesting but not my first choice. Main reason I'd like it is for the P-36, one of the most successful fighters during the battle.

 

One good thing about a battle of France map would be the potential for later aircraft additions to represent other battles. Battle of Britain and Normandy could be done depending on the size of the map.

Edited November 12, 2018 by Legioneod

[Gambit21]

3 hours ago, Algy-Lacey said:

In your opinion, an hour wasted?

 

Understatement

[Enceladus828]

12 minutes ago, Legioneod said:

One good thing about a battle of France map would be the potential for later aircraft additions to represent other battles. Battle of Britain and Normandy could be done

Yeah, that's why Cliffs of Dover will cover all 3 of them.

[Legioneod]

Just now, Novice-Flyer said:

Yeah, that's why Cliffs of Dover will cover all 3 of them.

Shame. Cliffs only hurts BoX imo.

[sniperton]

46 minutes ago, Gambit21 said:

Understatement

I wanna go to the Pacific, period. Sunshine, see, palm trees, cocktails, ships, torps, dive bombers, carrier landings.

But I know it shall be a long way to get there.

If I had to choose between

(a) two years spent to get them in the Pacific, or

(b) one year spent to get some of them in Italy, and another year spent to have them all in the Pacific,

then I'd be for option (b). It's better to have Italy soon than to have a full Pacific later.

If the devs opt for the Pacific instead, I'm pretty sure the first release won't be much different from an Italy release as to gameplay. You can go the Anzio-Guadalcanal-Midway route, or you can go the New Guinea-Coral Sea-Midway route, it's all the same to me.

Edited November 13, 2018 by sniperton

[sevenless]

37 minutes ago, Novice-Flyer said:

Yeah, that's why Cliffs of Dover will cover all 3 of them.

 

Not in this decade.

[danielprates]

3 hours ago, Legioneod said:

Huge mistake imo. Clod needs to die.

 

It always makes me sad when people bash CloD, with all Team Fusion is trying to do to get it right, with a semi-pro team and little financial return. 

 

Its a petty thing to do, like wishing harm or failure to other people when all they are doing is to have a different project than yours. 

 

Imho CloD gets it right in many respects, it has many strong points. It deserves, at the very least, some well-wishing in regards to their current project, which is promising and fills a much needed gap, one that is not in any other game's roadmap. Besides, there is very little wrong with CloD right now, mostly the AI afaik, which the team has already acknowledged and is supposed to be working very hard at it at the moment. Blitz already was, in my point of view, a great step forward and Tobruk promises to be no less than a great simulation. 

 

If anything, people should be encouraged to support its development. It is just sad when people who don't like it go all "ugh! Ermagherd dis is owful" and scare away people who might enjoy it. 

[Legioneod]

30 minutes ago, danielprates said:

 

It always makes me sad when people bash CloD, with all Team Fusion is trying to do to get it right, with a semi-pro team and little financial return. 

 

Its a petty thing to do, like wishing harm or failure to other people when all they are doing is to have a different project than yours. 

 

Imho CloD gets it right in many respects, it has many strong points. It deserves, at the very least, some well-wishing in regards to their current project, which is promising and fills a much needed gap, one that is not in any other game's roadmap. Besides, there is very little wrong with CloD right now, mostly the AI afaik, which the team has already acknowledged and is supposed to be working very hard at it at the moment. Blitz already was, in my point of view, a great step forward and Tobruk promises to be no less than a great simulation. 

 

If anything, people should be encouraged to support its development. It is just sad when people who don't like it go all "ugh! Ermagherd dis is owful" and scare away people who might enjoy it. 

I like CloD but it failed, and it's still unplayable for many. It'd be much more productive to have the Team Fusion people work for BoX.

 

I'd support CloD more if it didnt interfere with potential BoX. The main reason CloD leaves a bad taste in my mouth is because BoX wont expand into the same areas as CloD which is unfortunate.

 

We could have Battle of Britain, Normandy, Africa, etc all in BoX but because of CloD that will never happen for the foreseeable future.

Thats the main reason I don't support it.

Edited November 13, 2018 by Legioneod

[DickDong]

I love clod but its time has passed imho.  No VR, aged graphics and a shrinking user base.  I would like to see TF man hrs put into BoX where the can make decent compensation for the fantastic work they can do.  @danielprates we're not discouraging them imo, letting them know our feelings....what would be more discouraging would be a TF5 flop in sales on release, probably crushing them.

 

BoP before any other theatre to get back on topic.

Edited November 13, 2018 by Banzaii

[dburne]

3 hours ago, Finkeren said:

If for some reason they needed to do another title before moving to the Pacific and they flat out refused to go back to the Eastern Front, then I think a 1943-44 Italy title would be feasible. 

 

That's a mighty big "if" though. IMHO it is more likely that we skip out of WW2 entirely, if for some reason the PTO still isn't happening, and move on to Korea. 

 

I sure hope not - WWII is my "thang"...

32 minutes ago, danielprates said:

 

It always makes me sad when people bash CloD, with all Team Fusion is trying to do to get it right, with a semi-pro team and little financial return. 

 

Its a petty thing to do, like wishing harm or failure to other people when all they are doing is to have a different project than yours. 

 

Imho CloD gets it right in many respects, it has many strong points. It deserves, at the very least, some well-wishing in regards to their current project, which is promising and fills a much needed gap, one that is not in any other game's roadmap. Besides, there is very little wrong with CloD right now, mostly the AI afaik, which the team has already acknowledged and is supposed to be working very hard at it at the moment. Blitz already was, in my point of view, a great step forward and Tobruk promises to be no less than a great simulation. 

 

If anything, people should be encouraged to support its development. It is just sad when people who don't like it go all "ugh! Ermagherd dis is owful" and scare away people who might enjoy it. 

 

Agreed. TF Cliffs does not compete with IL-2 GB, but compliments it.

If Jason did not believe TF's work on Cliff's was a viable product they never would have entered an agreement with them to release the source code and allow them to further develop it. Time will tell how successful or not it will be. I wish TF all the best in this endeavor.

 

I used to fly it quite a bit after TF got ahold of it, but now that I only do VR it is no longer installed. If/when they do provide VR support for it I will gladly purchase their product and install it again.

Not a lot out there right now for us, the more the merrier. Cliffs was certainly a diamond in the rough, only problem was there was way too much rough. TF is doing good at addressing that.

[Jade_Monkey]

+1 for this and thanks for putting some thought into the post instead of just another "I want X" post.

 

Chances are pretty low but I would 100% support it if it was announced.

[Enceladus828]

All in all, I think that it’s just a miracle, probably the greatest miracle in the IL-2 series that a game made by official developers could fail, become abandoned, development is restarted by a group of amateurs and now they are the official developers of this game. Can anything top that?

I like Cliffs of Dover, but I only play it sometimes right now because there is just one map, you can’t select ordinances, they say that vehicles and artillery guns are playable, but they aren’t, there are some technical and performance issues, currently there is no VR. 

However, in early 2019 TF 5.0 will be released (we’re currently at 4.53), which will have the Tobruk map, release many new flyable aircraft, some are, Wellington, Dewoitine D.520, Bf 108, Gladiator Mk.II, P-40C/E, Hurricane Mk.IID Tankbuster; new ships will be added, many game issues will be corrected. In roughly mid 2019 VR will be implemented. As an important note when TF 5.0 is released the only thing you’ll have to pay for will be the Tobruk map and the new aircraft/ships, the fixes will all be added to the game for free.

In the future, possibly 2020-21, TF 6.0 will be added, which will include the Fw 190, Aircraft carriers, probably the Siege of Malta.

 

I understand right now why someone would rather play BoX than CloD, but for someone to say that they should axe the game and let BoX take over is totally wrong. If that happened, then BoX would have to start from scratch and therefore would be fewer new planes than in CloD. Here is a question for you people who believe that CloD should be axed, why did Jason give them the 1C source code then?

 

2B fair, if TFS wasn’t given the source code then TF 5.0 would be a low budget, less detailed product instead of a comprehensive professionally developed product.

 

I think that it is totally unfair that a group of amateur people have put this much effort and are trying all of their best to make this game a success, and yet there are people who just want them to stop. Fact is that every product made by TFS financially benefits TFS and 1CGS. For people who want CloD to be axed, you can say that as much as you want, but just be prepared that it won't happen

 

For those who haven’t already, check out the Cliffs of Dover section on the forum and see all of the updates since July.

 

Thank you for reading this.

Edited November 13, 2018 by Novice-Flyer

[-LUCKY-ThanksSkeletor]

Clod for me is still a broken mess, at least on windows 10. Running a 3440x1440 resolution seems to cause a host of GUI errors and when I hit escape I cant click anything and I have to just exit the game entirely. For once I just would like the game to actually work on modern machines with a  modern OS, hopefully TF 5.0 fixes these issues.

Edited November 13, 2018 by -LUCKY-ThanksSkeletor

[DickDong]

Been debating this with friends... Battle of Korea with all the contributions of carrier based aviation which many know little about. Me262 gets the jet tech in game, and it allows them time to develop carriers for the Pacific with easier material to find.  Some BoBo aircraft are Korea used as well.  Sabre, Mig, Panther, Corsair, F51, Skyraider.  I'd prefer this over Italy and be patient on BoP with this.