Kurfürst fans?

[Kurfurst]

Even the ‘46 Tempest will have issues with the 109K at certain altitude bands (3-4000) but I guess that is just part of the dynamics of the planes. That probably the best thing about the K-4 (apart from having both of its historical DB and DC engine settings) - it is quite able to match any opponent in any scenario: Tempests down low and P47s high up.

 

I am very much hopeful of late war Soviet planes add on, fighting La 7s in this thing was legendary. 

 

I wonder though  makes the boost to last only 10 minutes, whereas the flight manual of the thing is quite clear that WEP can be used 2x10 minutes, with an apprx 5 min interval at lower settings to allow engine components to cool down.

 

If we are to have this ‘timer’ thing which I do not approve very much, that handles time limits in manuals as they were countdowns like that of a hand granade, at least it should be consistent in sticking to what the manuals say - or finally replace that WEP system that makes more sense.

[TWC_Ace]

K4 is a beast. Last night I shot down one on KOTS in my P47 but we had numbers on our side (in that dogfight). Once I tried K4 I was very comfortable in BnZing ppl. With that said P47 is very durable in high speed dives and it can take punch. Love em both with their strenghts and weaknesses.

Edited November 21, 2018 by blackram

[Legioneod]

1 hour ago, blackram said:

K4 is a beast. Last night I shot down one on KOTS in my P47 but we had numbers on our side (in that dogfight). Once I tried K4 I was very comfortable in BnZing ppl. With that said P47 is very durable in high speed dives and it can take punch. Love em both with their strenghts and weaknesses.

K4 is a beast no doubt, I'm glad it's going to be limited in MP (hopefully) lol.

 

The P-47 is a different story imo, it's good no doubt but it's rather weak structurally. I've lost wings and shot them off with MGs alone. The wings of the P-47 are too weak imo. Also, it loses control surfaces in the dive at lower speeds than it should (structurally and historically it shouldn't lose controls at the speeds it can dive) I've lost controls at 560 and 570 mph, this shouldn't happen.

The K4 is slower in the dive from what I've experienced but it can dive quite a bit faster before losing anything, I've gotten up to 580-590 before losing anything on the K4.

[Cpt_Siddy]

I have a sneaking suspicion that the K was rushed out a bit and is not in its final form. I just over dove that thing to 900++ IAS and it had no comprehensibility or shake, while P-47 had all these features. 

 

Edited November 21, 2018 by Cpt_Siddy

[Legioneod]

3 minutes ago, Cpt_Siddy said:

I have a sneaking suspicion that the K was rushed out a bit and is not in its final form. I just over dove that thing to 900++ IAS and it had no comprehensibility or shake, while P-47 had all these features. 

 

The K-4 got stiff but it did attain a higher dive than the P-47 was able to.

Both aircraft need to be looked at when it comes to the dive. The P-47 dives well and is quite accurate imo but it losses control surfaces when it wouldn't irl.

Edited November 21, 2018 by Legioneod

[Cpt_Siddy]

Just now, Legioneod said:

The K-4 got stiff but it did attain a higher dive than the P-47 was able to.

 

 

Yeah, that's my results too, it got stiff but i could pull out with stabilizer, so no compressability. While P-47 disintegrated on me and had a nose down tendency from the compressability. 

 

I think that the models are still very WIP as far as the fine tuning goes. 

[Legioneod]

Just now, Cpt_Siddy said:

I think that the models are still very WIP as far as the fine tuning goes. 

Agreed. Compressibility in the P-47 seems accurate from the accounts but it shouldn't lose any control surfaces.

K4 is def over performing in the dive. Time will tell if it gets looked at.

 

Despite the downsides and some inaccuracies I've enjoyed both aircraft, especially the P-47.

[Cpt_Siddy]

2 minutes ago, Legioneod said:

 

K4 is def over performing in the dive. 

 

 

Ya think? I almost broke the sound barrier diving

Edited November 21, 2018 by Cpt_Siddy

[Blackhawk_FR]

What I felt the first time I've took off and climb with the K4...... Feels like it could reach the moon.

 

[Cpt_Siddy]

 

 

I am starting to have a nasty flashbacks 

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

2 hours ago, ZachariasX said:

It is not. While the „46“ mod with 1.98 ata does make it a great ride, the Mustang and especially the Tempest are faster. The Tempest is even considerably better in zoom climbs, sort of negating its spectacular climb rate.

It's marginal speed and only with 150-octane which is not certain for it. So far I think only Spitfire got it confirmed. If P-51D will be limited to 67" MAP only then it will be slower than K-4. But regardless, the top speed has to be reached first and maintained. P-51D has shorter WEP than K-4. And K-4 has far superior acceleration, which means it will reach certain speeds faster and keep them in manouvers or regain after manouvers fairly easily. Also, if I'm not mistaken, K-4 has higher cruising speeds. Plus of course it has all other benefits of the airframe like fairly good manouverability.

On the other hand P-51 drained out of energy will take some time to recover. You have to fly it wisely.  In DCS it takes a lot more skill to get from P-51 consistent positive results, so I expect similar needs here.

 

I like current P-47 challenge to be fair, though its even greater gap than between 67" P-51 and 1.8 Ata K-4 from DCS.

[Kurfurst]

15 minutes ago, Cpt_Siddy said:

I have a sneaking suspicion that the K was rushed out a bit and is not in its final form. I just over dove that thing to 900++ IAS and it had no comprehensibility or shake, while P-47 had all these features. 

 

 

Dive limits were increased on the 109K, see below from its historical manual, to 850 kph. Given that planes in the game have a bit of a safety margin on their paper dive limits, it might be even right, depending on the altitude. For higher alts  900+ IAS is definietely a bit too much.

[Cpt_Siddy]

3 minutes ago, VO101Kurfurst said:

 

Dive limits were increased on the 109K, see below from its historical manual, to 850 kph. Given that planes in the game have a bit of a safety margin on their paper dive limits, it might be even right, depending on the altitude. For higher alts  900+ IAS is definietely a bit too much.

 

 

I think i will try to break sound barrier, if i can manage to do that, then we might have a bit too much on the dive side, i agree. 

 

(other vice i am sure you all feel it is needed balance for axis to be competitive)

Edited November 21, 2018 by Cpt_Siddy

[ZachariasX]

1 minute ago, =362nd_FS=Hiromachi said:

It's marginal speed and only with 150-octane which is not certain for it.

If you give the 109 25% more horepower than the competition, even that old thing should be fast. we'll see what we are getting. So far the 109K4 is the dream version while the rest is a collection of all low settings you can find.

 

But so far, it's good fun.

 

7 minutes ago, =362nd_FS=Hiromachi said:

Also, if I'm not mistaken, K-4 has higher cruising speeds.

No. Not for practical purposes. Cruising speed is the speed that gives you endurance/range. That is around 400 km/h for the 109. Less fo the G-6, for the G-10 and K-4 maybe a tad above that. That is really slow, same goes for the Spit Mk.IX. But you can of course just shove the throttle forward and go at 550 km/h and have fun for half an hour. Real world cruising speed is something the very least of all 1GCAP would ever use.

 

12 minutes ago, =362nd_FS=Hiromachi said:

I like current P-47 challenge to be fair, though its even greater gap than between 67" P-51 and 1.8 Ata K-4 from DCS. 

This is my impression as well.

[Voidhunger]

46 minutes ago, Legioneod said:

 it's rather weak structurally. I've lost wings and shot them off with MGs alone. The wings of the P-47 are too weak imo.

 

From my yesterday testing P47 can withstand tremendous punishment, mainly elevator and the rudder.

95 % time pilot or engine is killed ,but the plane holds together. It can structuraly survive multiple 30mm rounds(not concentrated in one place) and many 13mm and 20mm rounds even from Fw190a8.

[kramer]

When even Kurfürst fans said the speed in a dive is too big there's something to know.?

[LLv24_Zami]

Dive speeds are plane manufacturers limits from the manual. K4 850 km/h and P-47 500 mph. Of course every plane can dive faster than these safe limits. They cannot be taken from any pilot memoirs or other anecdotal evidence.

[Cpt_Siddy]

Just now, LLv24_Zami said:

Dive speeds are plane manufacturers limits from the manual. K4 850 km/h and P-47 500 mph. Of course every plane can dive faster than these safe limits. They cannot be taken from any pilot memoirs or other anecdotal evidence.

 

 

Not the Russian ones, they cant. Yak-1's lose ailerons the second you move them at the overspeed range. 

[Legioneod]

2 minutes ago, Voidhunger said:

 

From my yesterday testing P47 can withstand tremendous punishment, mainly elevator and the rudder.

95 % time pilot or engine is killed ,but the plane holds together. It can structuraly survive multiple 30mm rounds(not concentrated in one place) and many 13mm and 20mm rounds even from Fw190a8.

This hasn't been my experience. 13mm by themselves have taken off my wings no problem and I've shot the wings of with 13mm as well. I understand a few 20mm or a 30mm taking the wings off but not 13mm, 13mm alone should never take wings off, the amount of damage for that to happen is higher than the 13mm could ever achieve in actual combat imo.

[LLv24_Zami]

Just now, Cpt_Siddy said:

 

 

Not the Russian ones, they cant. Yak-1's lose ailerons the second you move them at the overspeed range. 

Were not flying the same game I see.

[Cpt_Siddy]

1 minute ago, LLv24_Zami said:

Were not flying the same game I see.

 

Dunno, my 700+ hours of yak and lagg frame wrangling has shown me the lessons hard way.  Take my opinion for what it is worth. 

4 minutes ago, Legioneod said:

This hasn't been my experience. 13mm by themselves have taken off my wings no problem and I've shot the wings of with 13mm as well. I understand a few 20mm or a 30mm taking the wings off but not 13mm, 13mm alone should never take wings off, the amount of damage for that to happen is higher than the 13mm could ever achieve in actual combat imo.

 

The 13mm are wonderful, if i had a chose, i would install +1 of those for engine mounted, with more ammo, if possible.

[=EXPEND=13SchwarzeHand]

 

6 minutes ago, Cpt_Siddy said:

 

 

Not the Russian ones, they cant. Yak-1's lose ailerons the second you move them at the overspeed range. 

 

Actaully they can because the devs set them 100kph above the manufacturer limits. You´d be loosing parts at 650 if they took the manual as a basis

 

Devs probably did the same to the K4 and P47 then:

 

P47 500mph (manual) + 60 mph margin

K4 850kph + 100kph margin

 

So nothing new, but the same procedure they have applied to all aircraft. Except the lagg3 which IIRC got +150 kph due to pilot accounts

Edited November 21, 2018 by =EXPEND=SchwarzeDreizehn

[Cpt_Siddy]

2 minutes ago, =EXPEND=SchwarzeDreizehn said:

 

 

Actaully they can because the devs set them 100kph above the manufacturer limits. You´d be loosing parts at 650 if they took the manual as a basis

 

The parts flying off is not contingent on the speed alone but the force you apply on them.  Any kind of strong stick movement at the critical speeds and buh buy goes the surfaces.  There is also an RNG element involved, but in general, you don't want to control your plane until you are at the factory limits again. 

 

Every axis plane can use all his might at the speeds where russian planes disintegrate. And i have yet seen any citation from devs that they have indeed done that. Can you show me some, please?

Edited November 21, 2018 by Cpt_Siddy

[=EXPEND=13SchwarzeHand]

1 minute ago, Cpt_Siddy said:

but in general, you don't want to control your plane until you are at the factory limits again

 

see that´s where you are wrong.

It´s the in game limits, not factory limits

Edited November 21, 2018 by =EXPEND=SchwarzeDreizehn

[TWC_Ace]

When you go super fast in dive you shouldnt be using pitch controls at all, just trimming. I didnt have issues with high speed dives well beyond 600 kmh in P47....I will do some testing since I only used the plane for an hour in MP....

Edited November 21, 2018 by blackram

[Kurfurst]

Just now, ZachariasX said:

No. Not for practical purposes. Cruising speed is the speed that gives you endurance/range. That is around 400 km/h for the 109. Less fo the G-6, for the G-10 and K-4 maybe a tad above that. That is really slow, same goes for the Spit Mk.IX. But you can of course just shove the throttle forward and go at 550 km/h and have fun for half an hour. Real world cruising speed is something the very least of all 1GCAP would ever use.

 

You are thinking of the economy cruise ratings for max range. Maximum cruise speed for tactical purposes was way higher than that.

 

Actual 109E-K cruising speeds at Höchtz. Dauerleistung = Max. Continous rating. Given as in original manuals, range tables and datasheets.

 

109E / 601A. 520 kph / 5000m

109F4/ 601E: 605 kph at 6000m, 585 kph at 7 km. Gives an endurance on internal fuel 1 hour 5, 1 hour 10 minutes, depending on altitude. 

109G-1 / 605A: 600 kph at 6000m

109G-6/14 / 605A/m: 585 kph / 6500 m

109G-6/14/AS: 610 kph at 8000m?

109G-10 / 605DM: 628 kph at 8400 m

109K-4 / early 605DM: 645 kph at 8400

109K-4 / 605DB/DC: probably similar and slightly higher compared to the DM model, with ca. 4% increased cruise speeds under ca. 6500 due to higher cruise power ratings compared to DM

 

Max. cruise settings are 2400 rpm, 1.35ata for the DB/DC engine version we have.

[Cpt_Siddy]

1 minute ago, =EXPEND=SchwarzeDreizehn said:

 

see that´s where you are wrong.

It´s the in game limits, not factory limits

 

The in game limits are modeled after factory limits, if i am not totally mistaken. 

[=EXPEND=13SchwarzeHand]

Just now, Cpt_Siddy said:

 

The in game limits are modeled after factory limits, if i am not totally mistaken. 

 

Yes you are totally mistaken.

 

Like I said. The devs added a margin

[Cpt_Siddy]

5 minutes ago, =EXPEND=SchwarzeDreizehn said:

 

Yes you are totally mistaken.

 

Like I said. The devs added a margin

 

 

Well, then, let me just say on record that that margin has been on severe weight loss regime when it come to USSR machines. 

Edited November 21, 2018 by Cpt_Siddy

[=EXPEND=13SchwarzeHand]

like the extra 50 kph that the lagg3 got?

[Voidhunger]

19 minutes ago, Legioneod said:

This hasn't been my experience. 13mm by themselves have taken off my wings no problem and I've shot the wings of with 13mm as well. I understand a few 20mm or a 30mm taking the wings off but not 13mm, 13mm alone should never take wings off, the amount of damage for that to happen is higher than the 13mm could ever achieve in actual combat imo.

mg's are too strong in this game imho. 

With the P47 is almost imposible to just damage Bf109. Wings, tail just came off when i was behind.

 

Its like shooting sparrow with double barreled shotgun

Edited November 21, 2018 by Voidhunger

[Cpt_Siddy]

Just now, =EXPEND=SchwarzeDreizehn said:

like the extra 50 kph that the lagg3 got?

 

 

Compared to what? You do know that when you enter the over speed state, there is RNGeesus element that you will tear something off, that probability approaches to 1 when your speed grows. 

 

I have lost my ailerons at slight over speed, and sometimes kept them trough sheer luck in gross over speeds. 

[LeLv76_Erkki]

Max dive speeds in this sim are about 50 kmph lower than in 1946. Soviet fighters from 760-770 to 720-ish, LW from 900 to 850 ish. The margin between Vne written in manual and speed above which one can lose parts in game(control surfaces moving or not) is smaller but based on same real life data.

 

P-47's Vne is based on Vne written on the manual this time around. 

[TWC_Ace]

2 minutes ago, Voidhunger said:

mg's are too strong in this game imho. 

With the P47 is almost imposible to just damage Bf109. Wings, tail just came off when i was behind.

P47 has 8 of them....camon..and yes, its possible just to damage the 109...

[Cpt_Siddy]

Just now, blackram said:

P47 has 8 of them....camon..and yes, its possible just to damage the 109...

 

 

Buy hurting its feeling's, maybe. 

[II./JG77_Manu*]

5 minutes ago, Cpt_Siddy said:

Compared to what?

Compared to the manual as already mentioned a few times

[Cpt_Siddy]

2 minutes ago, II./JG77_Manu* said:

Compared to the manual as already mentioned a few times

 

 

So 50kph is considered thicc margin - from Vne and catastrophic cockup? Idd say that its about correct, then. 

 

We have much much T H I C C er margins flying on axis and US side of the fence. 

Edited November 21, 2018 by Cpt_Siddy

[=EXPEND=13SchwarzeHand]

9 minutes ago, Cpt_Siddy said:

Compared to what?

 

All other planes.

 

Lagg3 got manual +150kph instead of 100 like the others

 

look in the FM section. The topic of factory vs in game limits has been discussed there a lot. Should be easy to find the info you are looking for!

Edited November 21, 2018 by =EXPEND=SchwarzeDreizehn

[Cpt_Siddy]

5 minutes ago, =EXPEND=SchwarzeDreizehn said:

 

All other planes.

 

look in the FM section. The topic of factory vs in game limits has been discussed there a lot. Should be easy to find the info you are looking for!

 

Jesus wept, i don't want to continue this topic, if you cant understand the concept of the speed range from where damage is possible and damage is inevitable. 

Edited November 21, 2018 by Cpt_Siddy

[=EXPEND=Tripwire]

1 minute ago, Cpt_Siddy said:

 

Jesus wept, i don't want to continue this topic, if you cant understand the speed range from where damage is possible and damage is inevitable. 

 

Why, I'm sure it's only a few more posts till you realise you're the one confused here, why stop now?

 

The lagg has 150km/h of margin ingame vs manual compared to all other planes that have 100.

 

The 50 is in reference to the bonus it gets over every other plane due to pilot anecdotes.