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Ta-152 Collector Plane

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If they made the Ta-152, then by all means you could make the Spit 21 as well. And the P-51H. Both existed even in higher numbers than any version of the Ta-152.

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10 hours ago, sevenless said:

 

Agreed. It is one of the most perfected propellor aircraft of WW2 and certainly would deserve to be modelled. It is up to the devs to find a place where it may make sense. My bet would be on a late war east front release. We will see what the future brings.

 

 

Ta152.jpg

Ta152-1.jpg

 

 

"... perfected ..." is probably the wrong word to describe the 152H.  There were multiple engine, multiple landing gear, aileron control linkage, rudder control linkage, and airframe stress problems that weren't all successfully dealt with.  The pressurized cockpit was officially deactivated and the tailwheel was locked down, at least for awhile out of frustration.  And then there's the stability problems brought about by the aft CG location.  The only reason this aircraft even made it into production is because ... well ... the enemy was at the gate.  There was actually about a year of flight test development left to do on the type when it was sent to the front.

 

Cool plane though, and I've done a bunch of research on the type including crawling all over NASM's plane.  (Incidentally, I disagree with NASM as to this aircraft's ID.)

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As I recall the problem with a Ta-152 is that only around 20 were ever delivered to front line units and all of them were missing equipment or had malfunctioning equipment. So do you model them as they were in RL or as they were designed?

 

 

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13 minutes ago, Sgt_Joch said:

So do you model them as they were in RL or as they were designed?

 

I have an idea - don't model it at all and model a useful addition instead. F4U, Typhoon, Me410, A6M, Ki43 - just to mention 5 of the ~100 planes that have a higher priority for me.

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Would love to see it and would gladly pay for it, but I agree that there are other aircraft which are more important.

 

Ta-152H was a superb design though, and with those high AR wings it could probably outturn any Allied fighter in the ETO with the Spitfires being the only exception. A 580 km/h top SL speed was quite respectable as well, albeit not enough to outrun a Mustang. So the prototype Tank was flying was probably either considerably lighter than the "production" version, or more likely those aircraft that were chasing him weren't actually Mustangs but instead Yaks, which incidently were often mistaken for Mustangs at a distance that late in the war. 

 

Edited by Panthera

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2 hours ago, JtD said:

 

I have an idea - don't model it at all and model a useful addition instead. F4U, Typhoon, Me410, A6M, Ki43 - just to mention 5 of the ~100 planes that have a higher priority for me.

 Well why don't you start your own thread then.

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On 11/3/2018 at 12:04 PM, chuter said:

 

 

"... perfected ..." is probably the wrong word to describe the 152H.  There were multiple engine, multiple landing gear, aileron control linkage, rudder control linkage, and airframe stress problems that weren't all successfully dealt with.  The pressurized cockpit was officially deactivated and the tailwheel was locked down, at least for awhile out of frustration.  And then there's the stability problems brought about by the aft CG location.  The only reason this aircraft even made it into production is because ... well ... the enemy was at the gate.  There was actually about a year of flight test development left to do on the type when it was sent to the front.

 

 

Sources please, never read it anywhere.
thanks

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I would not mind it, it would make an interesting collectors plane with something like the Spitfire XIV or the P-47M, giving both sides that rare, extreme high altitude niche plane that, err, nobody really needs and which doesn't really have its practical use.

 

I am very much with Jtd, in that there are more practical planes to have. Mossie VIs and Me 410s would be my first choice (the RAF doesn't have twin, the LW doesn't have a late war twin/ground pounder) as its more useful for online campaign scenarios and frankly, more interesting than another set of late war uber fighters.

 

That being said, I would also not mind seeing some Russian late war planes such as the Yak 3 and La 7 to spice up DF servers a bit.

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More squadrons of Spit XIV in 2TAF than Mosquito VI that's for sure.

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5 hours ago, JV69badatflyski said:

 

Sources please, never read it anywhere.
thanks

 

There was plans to enlarge the stab.

As for the Spitfire XIV being a collector airplane, then so should be the 1.98ata K-4 of which there is questionable documentation and numbers used.

Edited by MiloMorai

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3 hours ago, VO101Kurfurst said:

the LW doesn't have a late war twin/ground pound

 

They have the 190 F-8 and G-8. 

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2 hours ago, LukeFF said:

They have the 190 F-8 and G-8. 

 

Even better they have the 262; two engines too.

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43 minutes ago, VO101Kurfurst said:

As if that was a twin engine

 

That doesn't matter - the 410 was irrelevant by the fall of 44, and the 190 was by far the most prevalent ground attacker the Germans had at the same time. 

Edited by LukeFF
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49 minutes ago, VO101Kurfurst said:

As if that was a twin engine

 

It does have a twin row radial engine.

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1 hour ago, LukeFF said:

 

That doesn't matter - the 410 was irrelevant by the fall of 44, and the 190 was by far the most prevalent ground attacker the Germans had at the same time. 

 

Quite irrelevant as collector planes are loosely tied to any specific scenario or timeframe. They have always pushed to the bounderies a bit in the past. In any case, we already have the 190 (if you have not noticed) and people still want the 410 and Mossie (and the Typhoon); the sim needs these much more so than another overhyped and semi-operational design of Tank.

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8 hours ago, VO101Kurfurst said:

Quite irrelevant as collector planes are loosely tied to any specific scenario or timeframe.

 

That was the case in the past, but not anymore. An Me 410 would be entirely useless in career mode and would be essentially limited to MP and the random quick mission. Not exactly a great idea. 

 

8 hours ago, VO101Kurfurst said:

In any case, we already have the 190 (if you have not noticed)

 

No kidding - we have three of them and soon a fourth one. All of them have maps or will eventually have maps where they actually flew.

 

8 hours ago, VO101Kurfurst said:

people still want the 410 and Mossie (and the Typhoon); the sim needs these much more so than another overhyped and semi-operational design of Tank.

 

I never said anything about the Mosquito not being a good choice, and the Typhoon would be a perfect fit for the coming map. There's still at least two Allied bombers - the B-25 and the B-26 - that would go very well with the Bodenplatte map, to say nothing of the Ar 234.

Edited by LukeFF
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I'd love to see a 152 added to the game but I expect a P-47M and Spitfire XIV in return.

While I do want these aircraft added one day I'd much rather see some medium bombers first.

On 11/3/2018 at 7:38 AM, Panthera said:

Would love to see it and would gladly pay for it, but I agree that there are other aircraft which are more important.

 

Ta-152H was a superb design though, and with those high AR wings it could probably outturn any Allied fighter in the ETO with the Spitfires being the only exception.

 

 

P-47M could give it a run for it's money I'd say, though it's very close. 473 mph official top speed, some pilot accounts state it could go faster.

Edited by Legioneod

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On 11/6/2018 at 11:19 AM, Legioneod said:

I'd love to see a 152 added to the game but I expect a P-47M and Spitfire XIV in return.

While I do want these aircraft added one day I'd much rather see some medium bombers first.

 

P-47M could give it a run for it's money I'd say, though it's very close. 473 mph official top speed, some pilot accounts state it could go faster.


Won't be possible to get the M, as 777 Will have to introduce Regular mechanical (engine) failures in the game engine.....😁

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1 hour ago, JV69badatflyski said:


Won't be possible to get the M, as 777 Will have to introduce Regular mechanical (engine) failures in the game engine.....😁

Thats fine, they can also model poor manufacturing and poor German pilots while they're at it. 😆

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1 hour ago, Legioneod said:

Thats fine, they can also model poor manufacturing and poor German pilots while they're at it. 😆


the "German" wasn't really necessary, as we all know it's not because you spend 4 years to wear your trousers on a university bench that you come out like you better know the world than someone with a great life experience...being a combat pilot is something natural, you got it or not and even a whole year of combat training will made you one.

anyway, the poor (skills) pilots are called iA in this game...😉

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On ‎11‎/‎3‎/‎2018 at 1:45 AM, sevenless said:

 

That certainly would be nice. I ever since SWOTL (in 1991) liked the concept to get game additions which introduced singleplayer plane specific careers with iconic planes. Do 335, He 162, P-80, P-38. Maybe we can see something similar in this sim in the future? As for multiplayer the Ta-152 H0/H1 would be a beast, since it was designed to take up the high altitude escorts and I guess it would have performed very well against P51s or P47s, even at lower altitudes than 10.000 metres. However, that´s just my personal guess. We will never know for sure.

 

That is exactly my point in the feedback. The collectors planes should come with additional material to use it: mini map, career, missions, etc. It would make it much more attractive to buy them.

I bought the Ju52 and I haven´t use it yet.

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On 11/2/2018 at 9:32 PM, Finkeren said:

No thanks. As few unicorns as possible.

 

Less than 70 Ta 152 produced, not all of which saw action, only fully equipped a single Stabstaffel, fewer than 20 operational at its peak, a grand total of 7 victories scored and 4 combat losses.

 

Hardly worth the effort to model what is essentially a completely new airframe that is to my knowledge not very well documented.

 

To play the devil's advocate here, the airframe wasn't new, the 152s were either mostly or exclusively built from refurbished A-8 airframes by adding a tail extension plug alongside the new engine and weapons.

4 hours ago, JV69badatflyski said:


Won't be possible to get the M, as 777 Will have to introduce Regular mechanical (engine) failures in the game engine.....😁

 

This is an urban legend. The R-2800-57 C series Double Wasp wasn't any more prone to failure as the -59 B series fitted to the P-47D, almost certainly even less due to higher build quality.

However, the engines were improperly packaged for transit over the Atlantic, causing salt water corrosion of engine parts, notably the ignition harnesses, which subsequently developed a severe tendency for cracking.

That is what prevented large scale operations of P-47Ms in early 1945, not any kind of engine reliability or build quality issue.

Edited by PainGod85

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On 11/6/2018 at 11:19 AM, Legioneod said:

I'd love to see a 152 added to the game but I expect a P-47M and Spitfire XIV in return.

While I do want these aircraft added one day I'd much rather see some medium bombers first.

 

P-47M could give it a run for it's money I'd say, though it's very close. 473 mph official top speed, some pilot accounts state it could go faster.

 

In speed yes, but I think the Ta-152H would trump it everywhere else rather significantly. 

 

That said I would like to see the Spitfire XIV ingame even more so than the 152, and think it's only appropiate it gets added considering that it saw a good amount of action in the ETO and also some during Bodenplatte. 

Edited by Panthera
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agree Panthera about the mk14...but the 152 just for the "elegance", such a nice looking plane🤩

 

3 hours ago, PainGod85 said:

 

To play the devil's advocate here, the airframe wasn't new, the 152s were either mostly or exclusively built from refurbished A-8 airframes by adding a tail extension plug alongside the new engine and weapons.

 

This is an urban legend. The R-2800-57 C series Double Wasp wasn't any more prone to failure as the -59 B series fitted to the P-47D, almost certainly even less due to higher build quality.

However, the engines were improperly packaged for transit over the Atlantic, causing salt water corrosion of engine parts, notably the ignition harnesses, which subsequently developed a severe tendency for cracking.

That is what prevented large scale operations of P-47Ms in early 1945, not any kind of engine reliability or build quality issue.


Maybe, i just read that on wikistuff and thought it was funny 🤣
anyway The Razorback would have more it's place in the game than the M.

Edited by JV69badatflyski

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The contemprary of the Ta-152 would be the Spit Mk.21 or 22, for the 190D9 it is the Spit Mk.XIV and for the 190A8 it would be the Spit Mk.IX. At low levels, the Ta-152H is NOT what you want. At 4 tons it is half a ton heavyer than the 190D9 and it has wing span you don't need.

 

We have nothing in the game at 40k ft to shoot at. If you need to shoot something at altitude, the Me-262 will be a far better bet. The only thing you would need maneuvrability to shoot it at that altitude would be a PR Spit Mk.XIX. And there you have about zero performance plus on your side, making an intercept very hard.

 

And if it comes down to duel, the choice betrween a Ta-152H (or even C) and a Spit Mk.21 (200 kg lighter) is not that hard.

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Just now, ZachariasX said:

We have nothing in the game at 40k ft to shoot at. If you need to shoot something at altitude, the Me-262 will be a far better bet. The only thing you would need maneuvrability to shoot it at that altitude would be a PR Spit Mk.XIX. And there you have about zero performance plus on your side, making an intercept very hard.

 

Not sure about the 262 at a very high altitude... She would still be very fast but acceleration/climb would decrease dramatically as the 262 is a very early jet. From graphs I can see the P-38J should beat the 262 +30K ft readily in that metric. So the jet driver would be strictly limited to hit and run tactics.

Edited by Ehret

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43 minutes ago, ZachariasX said:

The contemporary of the Ta-152 would be the Spit Mk.21 or 22, for the 190D9 it is the Spit Mk.XIV and for the 190A8 it would be the Spit Mk.IX. At low levels, the Ta-152H is NOT what you want. At 4 tons it is half a ton heavier than the 190D9 and it has wingspan you don't need.

 

Were any MK.21 Spitfires sent to the Continent before war's end? I know about 91 Squadron, but they were based out of the UK.

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15 minutes ago, Ehret said:

So the jet driver would be strictly limited to hit and run tactics.

Oh yes. The 262 practised that on the PR Spitfires. The PR Mosquitoes were quickly put back to the hangars as soon as the Me-262 came out. At least the Spit could outmaneuver the 262 such that is was a hard job even for a pair of 262 to take it out.

1 minute ago, LukeFF said:

Were any MK.21 Spitfires sent to the Continent before war's end? I know about 91 Squadron, but they were based out of the UK.

No, very few. just that squadron thatI know of. They may have shot up some stuff on the continent, but I don't know of any air victories. The "definitive Mk.21 was the Mk.22 with the teardrop canopy that was kept until the 50s. While the Mk.21 at least saw some flights over the continent during the war, I'm not aware that the Mk.22 was really used in the WWII at all. Same as the Ta-152C.

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3 hours ago, ZachariasX said:

The contemprary of the Ta-152 would be the Spit Mk.21 or 22, for the 190D9 it is the Spit Mk.XIV and for the 190A8 it would be the Spit Mk.IX. At low levels, the Ta-152H is NOT what you want. At 4 tons it is half a ton heavyer than the 190D9 and it has wing span you don't need.

 

We have nothing in the game at 40k ft to shoot at. If you need to shoot something at altitude, the Me-262 will be a far better bet. The only thing you would need maneuvrability to shoot it at that altitude would be a PR Spit Mk.XIX. And there you have about zero performance plus on your side, making an intercept very hard.

 

And if it comes down to duel, the choice betrween a Ta-152H (or even C) and a Spit Mk.21 (200 kg lighter) is not that hard.

 

IMHO the Ta-152H & Spitfire XIV are more contemporary, however the Spitfire XIV is just a more valid addition to the game considering it saw more action during the war.

 

As for the Ta-152H, it would be great at all altitudes tbh, also low level. Sure it's some 20 km/h slower than a P-51 at low level, but in return it will outturn & outclimb the P-51, those high AR wings provided an amazing L/D ratio and increased the CLmax, something which becomes quite apparent when you see how much shorter the take off run of the Ta-152H is as compared with the Dora. The only Allied fighter aircraft I really see as superior is the Spitfire XIV, but the Germans are getting the Me262 to deal with that menace.

 

So IMHO they should add the Spitfire Mk.XIV first, and then later on think about adding the Ta-152H. 

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On 11/8/2018 at 12:04 AM, Panthera said:

 

IMHO the Ta-152H & Spitfire XIV are more contemporary, however the Spitfire XIV is just a more valid addition to the game considering it saw more action during the war.

 

Can you explain why you think that? Xiv was delivered late 43 and active in January 44, and from what I can see Ta152 was a full year later (unless I'm mistaken). Xiv then would be more of a contemporary of 109 g10/k4. Unless you're substituting the word 'equal' for 'contemporary'. 

 

Then others have said the mk 21 would be a better fit (but both would be out of place in the bodenplatte area I think). Or the p51h/p47m. 

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1 hour ago, Tarks91 said:

 

Can you explain why you think that? Xiv was delivered late 43 and active in January 44,

 


no, it wasn't nor delivered, nor in duty on the timestamps you wrote....

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🤣

there was no airframe that was assigned to any squadron until jan44.
there were 20 airframes build untill the 31st dec43, all awaiting allocation.

So you consider 8 airframes as an operationnal squadron?...especially by RaF standards? Those airframes were there to learn how to operate them, by pilots and grease monkey's.
The squad is not operationnal at this timeframe, they go to school...

610 seems to be fully equipped (assigned airframes) as from end-feb44 with 17 airframes on it's name.
Now, what kind of combat did they see with the610? the only german things were the V1's they saw until  what? sept44?

(numbers of airframes for the 610 seems to be the same in their Orb's as on my airframes' chronology study)

Anyway, throwing the F21 in the discussion, something build in  121 examples, protos included, can not be considered as mass production by allied standards . Not even starting about the number of airframes that were assigned to duty...
But agree that purely on a time-line, the ta152 (that also may be considered as a pre production serie, as were the A0 and A1 ) is more in equation with the f21 than the 14.

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3 hours ago, Tarks91 said:

active in January 44

 

2 minutes ago, JV69badatflyski said:

assigned to any squadron until jan44.

Don't understanding what you're contending here? Do aircraft entering service not count as being 'active'? Or do we have to wait for full squadrons/wings to be fully outfitted with them? In that case did the Ta152 ever actually enter service? Production numbers seem to several dozen at best. 

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6 minutes ago, Tarks91 said:

In that case did the Ta152 ever actually enter service? Production numbers seem to several dozen at best. 

Never enough to equip a full squadron. If you are talking about the 152H. Of those, they had individual planes occasionally that they used a couple of times. At that time, it was hard to become airborne without getting Allied company anyway. If you call that operative, fine. The 152C AFAIK never left the ground in anger.

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By raf Standards, operationnal use starts when the squad is fully equipped. you can't go on operation with 8 assigned airframes (example here), even with the best hypothetical availabilty ratio of 75% (best average) you do not have the capacity to send the squad in the air. Now, take also in account that we're speaking about a whole new airplane, with completely different characteristics than the mk9 and different engine. you need a transition period, pilots have to learn how to ride it and greasemonkeys have to learn how to maintain the beast.
I'm almost sure that if you get the airframes' logbooks in your hands, you'll see that at least one of those 8airframes made it's first flight 2or3 weeks after being delivered, cause it was send directly to the hangar on the arrival, then put apart and used as a learning tool.
Britisch were more conservative than germans on this (new airframe type), they gave more learning time (not a bad thing), germans when receiving a new type it was more like: aach gutt, grosser motor? viel ps? jaaa, gutt, das is immer noch eine wurger. vollgas!🤣

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The British, having the option of getting airborne (on most airfields) without immediate action could well afford to be conservative to call an aircraft „operative“. Conversely, they, along with the Americans could make any German aircraft „operative“ by shooting at it.

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