Should the Po-2 pilot and gunner be (selectable) female?

[BMA_Hellbender]

This is a very hot topic these days, with multiple video game controversies regarding forced gender diversity in settings that did not historically feature women.

 

The latest perpetrators are the soon to be released Battlefield V which features a large amount of female soldiers, and a recent patch of Total War Rome II which has added female Roman generals. People are upset about it, whether you agree with their viewpoint or not. With this in mind, I hope we can have a civil discussion about the role the Po-2 played in female aviation history.

 

 

First of all, I'm very excited about the Po-2 and it will be a day 1 purchase. If you're not excited about an old soviet crop duster, you don't belong here. Okay, maybe you do, but I digress.

 

Second, the absolute overwhelming majority of U-2/Po-2 pilots were male. After all, most pilots in the VVS would have at one point trained on the type.

 

Third, let's not kid ourselves, its present audience is going to be overwhelmingly male, too.

 

 

With this out of the way, I still hope that its iconic role as a night bomber with the 588th Night Witches will net it a female pilot and gunner (either selectable or by default). If not at release, then at least down the line.

 

Now let's get down to business and talk money. This is a silly amount of work to implement both a fully animated female pilot and gunner, plus voice acting, all for a single plane which many people won't buy.

 

Except, of course, if many do buy it — and 1C-777 then decides to use that extra money to implement female models after all. In essence, we could vote for it with our wallets.

 

What do you think?

[BMA_FlyingShark]

Yes for me.

 

Have a nice day.

 

[SvAF/F19_Tomten]

Sure, if the devs want to  put some of their development time on it. It makes sense from a historical perspective so why not?

[InProgress]

Multi is madness anyway so nothing is really historical there, so I don't mind a girl in po2. It's not like you will even see it.

 

For sp, only in realistic role, I assume it was night only in Stalingrad? But I am not sure.

 

I don't see how animations would be needed, it's the same as guy, they just turn their heads anyway. 3d model of girl would probably take few days and that would be main thing to do. Voice? Could be done the same time as American voices. Do they really need voices actress? Maybe could be done with a volunteer, devs wife or something. I remember that rising storm was making faces based on fans who would send them pictures. So free volunteers provided faces for game characters voices are often like this too in smaller games.

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

I would certainly like to be a Woman in the Cockpit. 

[Cpt_Siddy]

In b4 anime mods.

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

Like this? 

 

 

 

 

Lovely 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hmmmmmmm..........

 

 

[ACG_Kroko]

I am sure, there were much more female pilots on the eastern front than many of the aviable aircraft modifications (more or less bizarre thinks as mg 151 at the mc. 202 (or the macchi in general ) , 37mm on early il2, sc2500 ect.) In view of such historical irrelevant stuff  (wich found its way in this game,), why should be a visual female pilot model a problem for anyone?

Edited September 24, 2018 by I./ZG1_Krokodilor

[Cpt_Siddy]

19 minutes ago, 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann said:

Like this? 

 

 

[LEWD]

 

Lovely 

 

 

 

[L L  LEWDER]

 

 

 

 

Hmmmmmmm..........

 

[DANGEROUSLY FURRY]

 

 

 

Needs more Strike withes :^) 

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

3 minutes ago, Cpt_Siddy said:

 

 

Needs more Strike withes :^) 

Nah, but I want to fly as a Women in a Black Bear Suit. 

I do now regret googling women bear furry suits. 

Edited September 24, 2018 by 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann

[Cpt_Siddy]

This thread reminded me to get them custom weeb skins finally done  

Edited September 24, 2018 by Cpt_Siddy

[Feathered_IV]

The developers seem to have a lot of graphics people these days, so maybe it's a possibility.  

[6./ZG26_Custard]

1 hour ago, Hellbender said:

This is a very hot topic these days, with multiple video game controversies regarding forced gender diversity in settings that did not historically feature women.

From a purely historical view point, I'd be disappointed if we don't get female pilot models for the Po-2

 

Just don't ask them for directions

 

 

1 hour ago, Hellbender said:

a recent patch of Total War Rome II which has added female Roman generals. People are upset about it

Just revisionist clap-trap, just install the Empire divided  mod and historical realism prevails. 

[OrLoK]

Id like female voices to be added, but other than a quick texture reskin, would female pilots in full gear look that different to men, meshwise?

 

 

[SYN_Haashashin]

Hi all,

 

Do not bring other games controversy into this forum.

 

Not much to discuss about it here since its historical correct to have them.

 

Haash

[unreasonable]

Question - did Po-2s carry radios?  If not, no need for female voices any more than we need voice acting in FC.  Given the general rarity of radios in Soviet planes, and the fact that in the picture of the two ladies in the cockpit, the helmets have no obvious earphones, so I suspect not.

 

With flying helmet on and goggles down, wearing a bulky leather coat for an open cockpit. it is pretty hard to determine the sex of a pilot anyway.  So why not make the pilot model for the Po-2 androgynous: otherwise we will need two pilot models for one aircraft, which seems like a bit of a waste of development time given how much there is to do. 

 

 

[=LwS=Wize]

http://ava.org.ru/bap/125g.htm

Let me remind you that there was still a women's air regiment at Pe-2.

[Nil]

7 hours ago, Hellbender said:

First of all, I'm very excited about the Po-2 and it will be a day 1 purchase.

I love light recon planes. my dream is to have later the fi156 and the Piper L4

New gameplay is welcome!

 

+1 for female model pilot of course!

 

By the way I will ad this topic to our OP2 topic collection.

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/37804-polikarpov-u2po2-❤️kukuruznik-fan-club-??‍✈️??‍✈️??‍✈️/

[BMA_Hellbender]

5 hours ago, SYN_Haashashin said:

Hi all,

 

Do not bring other games controversy into this forum.

 

Not much to discuss about it here since its historical correct to have them.

 

Haash

 

I agree that there's no need to discuss or create controversy where there is none.

 

Games in 2018 also can't be created in a vacuum, not even if they are meant for a (relatively) niche flightsim market.

 

 

Beyond the fact that I want to see more women in aviation in general and flightsims in particular, I don't have a hidden agenda when it comes to women in video games. I also urge civility and caution with taking a strong stand either way when discussing this topic.

 

For the most part I think the problems in other games happened because developers poorly understood their audience and miscommunicated. Here, there's an opportunity to avoid all that, maybe even set a good example for gamers everywhere and create some good press.

 

 

If the developers do nothing, then that's the end of the discussion, at least to me. It might be seen as a missed opportunity, though we also have to be realistic and accept that having a few female models is not going to magically change anything overnight.

[unreasonable]

3 hours ago, Hellbender said:

...though we also have to be realistic and accept that having a few female models is not going to magically change anything overnight.

 

Speak for yourself.  

 

Seriously though I disagree that other games have had problems because of miscommunication. It seems to me that they communicated only too clearly: there must be women in game combat roles, even where there were none in fact, to signal support for feminism and indoctrinate the same in their player base. Clearly many people play games to get away from the constant bombardment of PC propaganda, not to be exposed to it in the most intrusive and egregious fashion.

 

In the case of BoX there is a historic case to be made for Soviet female pilots (and, given TG1-Nil's reminder) voices. However, the total number of female pilots involved in a few Soviet units was a tiny fraction of all pilots. Given that there are huge gaps in the game one can reasonably ask whether developer time spent on this is justified. Should this not be better dealt with as a subject for mods?

 

In addition, where is the line?  Would a German female pilot choice be playable in a Bf109 Career for instance?  Absolutely no historical justification for that.  We have a similar problem with a black pilot model. There were some tiny number in British/Commonwealth service, and rather more in the USAAF but segregated. But they flew out of Italy, which unfortunately seems not to be in the BoX pipeline.  I would love to see a black USAAF pilot model; come to think of it a black female USAAF pilot would be even better, but is it really a priority?  Would my AI wing-person suck any less for being female? 

 

If females want to play WW2 flight sims there is absolutely nothing stopping them, any more than there is anything stopping me playing a female character in game that has loads of them.  I quite often do in RPGs since once spends so much time looking at their bums, but if I do not do so, it is not for lack of male avatars: it is because I am not interested in the subject.

[Dutchvdm]

It would be nice if there was an option to fly as an female pilot when it was historical justified. There were female pilot's for a lot of Soviet aircraft in WW2, so adding a Soviet female pilot model would be nice. I have no need for a German female pilot. Keep that SJW nonsense for Battlefield and Battlefront. 

 

Grt M

[[PFR]Sarpalaxan]

Altho it would be a welcome adition i don't really know if it needs to be. Would ad to the Nightwitches fantasy a bit but you don't see your own pilot anyway. New animations wouldn't be needet exept maybe for the pe-2 then the Navigator has to come up and help you pulling the stick for the start, (At least i thint i read that that was stardart protocol for female and Weaker pilots). But like one poster sayd where do we stop. There where Black Pilot's in the US Airforce. Also maybe some irish people with skintexture Egwhite. Do We need a character creator?  Why don't we just shave the russian pilots and give them man boobs. Could be a manly woman, could be a feminime man. 

 

 

[Volkoff]

I am also very excited about the future inclusion of the PO-2. And I certainly support the inclusion of Female pilots and crew for the Soviet side. If and when the team can add Females, great. I hope the team can add Females for the PO-2, PE-2, Yak-1, Yak-7b, Yak-1b, and any other plane that Soviet Women historically used during The Great Patriotic War.

 

P.S. If the team can add Females to both sides for multiplayer gameplay, great. At a minimum, it makes sense to have Females represented for aircraft Women actually used during the war, but adding Women in planes they didn't use historically won't harm multiplayer gameplay or anything. Female Il2 players may want to play for both sides in multiplayer, may be members of the Bf-109 Fan Club, may want to role play as Erica Hartmann, whatever. It's all good, won't harm multiplayer.

Edited September 25, 2018 by NewGuy_

[Lusekofte]

There where women flying Yak´s and IL2 together with listed above. a female pilot for Russian side would be quite something

[[I./JG62]steppa]

Is her flight log available online? I just found secondary sources.

[E_Davjack]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marina_Raskova

 

Good collected bit of information on the three regiments formed.  Initially 400 women per regiment, making 1200 to begin with.  Lesser percentage of course, but not an insignificant number in the air war, flying Pe-2s and Yaks as well as the PO-2. 

 

I agree with the idea that mainly it is female voice acting that needs to be done.  That doesn't seem too hard.  Hire a Russian woman to read a script for an afternoon.  For the model, maybe a slightly different uniform skin?  A slightly narrower chin?  I doubt they flew with their hair loose.  I'm not sure anybody could tell a Nightwitch apart from a male pilot from 50m on the ground, but I do believe that the Soviet women deserve representation.  The Nightwitches are especially badass:  flying open-topped biplanes at night in Russia.  Sometimes that's cold beyond cold.  And women tend to feel the cold worse than men.  Badass, real life warriors.

 

I also would like to see black aviators for the USAAF.  Not a lot of work, in my opinion.  Just the head model/texture.  No need for voice acting, I wouldn't want to see them hire a guy to do a "generic black voice," that would probably suck.   

 

As far as female models for everything else?  Women can fly, obviously.  Hanna Reitsch was a great pilot (though unapologetic Nazi), but she was not allowed to be in combat.  She test piloted the Comet, for instance. Piloting is something women are very capable of.  So for a flight sim, I really don't mind if being able to roleplay a woman gets more women into realistic flight sims.  We don't have to see it, in multiplayer, and if you are worried about something you can't even see...you may have a mental issue going on there. 

 

It's a question of cognition:  If you think they don't belong, does it hurt you to *know* that someone *could* see themselves as a woman in the cockpit, even though you will never see it?  I also post the flipside of this question to women I talk about war games with:  If you could choose a female model that you see, and other people could "opt-out" of female models and see your model as a man, would it matter?  What part of your cognition matters most, that you see it?  Or that you know others see it as well?

 

It is totally different from a WWII FPS, where you see your enemies up close and unhistorical stuff breaks immersion.  For instance, I wouldn't mind seeing the occasional woman in the PLAF in Rising Storm 2 (Vietnam war), but I do not want to see women on the American team.  That would be ridiculous. 

[69TD_Hajo_Garlic]

For me it doesn't matter.  I wouldnt mind it but I dont think it's going to make the chute shooter reconsider and I think the effort could be better spent elsewhere unless it's not much effort at all.

[=621=Samikatz]

I would pay for a high quality scripted campaign based on the 588th, personally. Sims like this are a great opportunity to bring to attention lesser told stories

[Guest deleted@83466]

After much deliberation, I've decided I wish to be a member of the night withches multiplayer squadron.

[unreasonable]

No one should be allowed to join a squadron whose name they cannot spell.   

[ZachariasX]

Oh, lucky me. I was to join a Kamikatze unit.

[Guest deleted@83466]

1 minute ago, ZachariasX said:

Oh, lucky me. I was to join a Kamikatze unit.

 

That was clever

[=gRiJ=Roman-]

Only when historically accurate. It's  fine in this particular case.

[Bremspropeller]

Why not go one step beyond and offer women-bios for the offline careers?

 

That way I can dress up in women's clothes AND feel self-conscious about it.

 

On 9/25/2018 at 11:22 AM, unreasonable said:

In addition, where is the line?  Would a German female pilot choice be playable in a Bf109 Career for instance?  Absolutely no historical justification for that.  We have a similar problem with a black pilot model. There were some tiny number in British/Commonwealth service, and rather more in the USAAF but segregated. But they flew out of Italy, which unfortunately seems not to be in the BoX pipeline.  I would love to see a black USAAF pilot model; come to think of it a black female USAAF pilot would be even better, but is it really a priority?

 

That is factually true, no doubt.

But all services you mentioned had women transfer-pilots who (with a bit of of an imaginative stretch) COULD have been involved in actual combat.

Certainly for the Germans. In fact, some aviatrices have been shot down, ferrying airplanes.

 

Amongst theam was this lady:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melitta_Schenk_Gräfin_von_Stauffenberg

Edited October 6, 2018 by Bremspropeller

[unreasonable]

Modders would be able to do all these things if the files are available.  I could not care less what other people do in their game. I would just rather the developers' time was spent getting some important gameplay features right: a correctly functioning Spitfire cooling system would be a good place to start.

 

Does the sex of the pilot matter if your plane emits vast quantities of white fluid at peak performance?

Edited October 6, 2018 by unreasonable

[DD_Arthur]

56 minutes ago, Bremspropeller said:

That way I can dress up in women's clothes AND feel self-conscious about it.

 

Lol Brems

[ZachariasX]

1 hour ago, Bremspropeller said:

Certainly for the Germans.

Oh yes. They even had women pilots that not only got to fly the Me-262 (besides many other types), but also one that did that AND could help Brems to

1 hour ago, Bremspropeller said:

dress up in women's clothes AND feel self-conscious about it.

Beate truly could have helped you there.

 

There is also a less sympathetic one that even flew th Fi-103 (besides almoste everything else) and lived to talk about that. So if you had a woman pilot, you could even take any bet on her that she's on average much more qualified to do whatever her job was that the average male pilot. This for the simple reason that the mountain of crap she had to endure to get there was very much higher than what her male comerades had to endure. She had to be better to get there.

 

Plus, well at least online, you don't have the choice of not shooting it out with women. There is at least  @MeoW.Scharfi that will let you have yours whether you lke it or not.

[Bremspropeller]

Didn't even think of Beate, but you're perfectly right.

Not only did she flerry fighters, she also was an entrepreneur-pioneer of post-war Germany and she flew airplanes right up to a very old age.

 

5 hours ago, ZachariasX said:

So if you had a woman pilot, you could even take any bet on her that she's on average much more qualified to do whatever her job was that the average male pilot. This for the simple reason that the mountain of crap she had to endure to get there was very much higher than what her male comerades had to endure. She had to be better to get there.

 

Certainly. This probably holds true for all nations - except maybe (I have no idea, really) the USSR.

Does anybody know if there were any japanese female aviators? Seems to have been an overly male-dominated country (much more so than other western or western-oriented societies of the time) with few opportunities for women to get any career than being a housewife.

 

[unreasonable]

The Night Geishas?  

[ZachariasX]

31 minutes ago, Bremspropeller said:

Does anybody know if there were any japanese female aviators?

AFAIK:

 

First (and only) Japanese Military pilot (F-15): Misa Matsushima. Got her wings three month ago!!

 

First Japanese airline pilot: Ari Fuji. Her first PIC flight in 2010.

 

 

3 minutes ago, unreasonable said:

The Night Geishas?  

You wish.