The K-4 Isn't Special

[MiloMorai]

It gives the squadrons the a/c went to.

 

RM619

XIV

EA

G65

33MU 9-4-44 91S 12-7-44 130S 'AP-D' 4-10-44 Hit by flak nr Aachen Germany and abandoned 16-1-45   Was thinking the same Bada.

Edited September 17, 2018 by MiloMorai

[JV69badatflyski]

This one is considered in my stats as MU on the 10/04/44, assigned to 91Sq on the date of 20/07/44  then assigned to 130sq on the 10/10/44 and Soc-Flak on the 20/01/45.
My stats are build on the situation each airframe was  on the 10th/20st/31st of the month.
It was al long to handle , if i had to work day by day or by 5 days increminations.....damn! ?

Edited September 17, 2018 by JV69badatflyski
misspeling

[Talon_]

6 minutes ago, JV69badatflyski said:

I know, i just checked the E/FR/FRE versions as you wrote about the recco squadrons.

 

Spits were redesignated FR if they had cameras fitted and the conversion for fuselage only was super simple. There's no real distinction between FR XIVE and regular XIVE other than a few small fittings from Supermarine, so be careful on reports in that regard. Quite a few FRs never flew with a camera, and vice versa!

 

[JV69badatflyski]

Actually in the case of the 14, it was,
It was build officially in 4 different versions (according to the database found in the link milo provided here above, on which all my stats are based)
you had the "Standard", then the E, then the FR and as last the FR-E.

Shall we start another topic somewhere else? ?

Edited September 17, 2018 by JV69badatflyski

[Talon_]

Those versions were built however the FR was converted to and from the other versions.

[MiloMorai]

T. Supermarine over-delivered one FRXIV and under-delivered one XIV. Totals per the production list are therefore 431 FRXIV and 526 XIV

 

The 526 includes the 27 XIV RV.

Edited September 17, 2018 by MiloMorai

[JV69badatflyski]

i got 423 FR's  / 8FR-E's / 482 "standard" / 44 E's in total production of the mk14.

[sevenless]

10 pages for something which isn´t special? Understatement of the century?

[MiloMorai]

20 minutes ago, JV69badatflyski said:

i got 423 FR's  / 8FR-E's / 482 "standard" / 44 E's in total production of the mk14.

 

number from http://www.airhistory.org.uk/spitfire/contracts.html

[GP*]

39 minutes ago, sevenless said:

10 pages for something which isn´t special? Understatement of the century?

 

Pretty ironic, too.

[JonRedcorn]

2 hours ago, JV69badatflyski said:

Thanks milo.

With more words is sooo much better to understand the meaning of this.

 

started writig something but JonRedcorn answered meanwhile so i change slightly my thoughts here.
i'll go with german "power" expressions here:
IF in Russianplanes 100% is "Continuous combat power"  = 80/85% throttle on FW (i don't like the 109) so i'll use the Wurger as example. ?

Now to get the "Emergency power", what has to be done on the russian planes with the copy of the Hispano-suiza in front of the cockpit?
In the wurger, i push the throttle to the firewall, pedal to metal, full throttle. but what in russians then? The pilots has to insert his Red-Card into some magical hole so the plane sees it's allowed by the Politburo to use the engine's full potential?

That's thing there isn't any emergency power option. The planes were made so the pilots didn't kill the engines. The only way to kill a VVS plane is to shut all the radiators and fly full out on a summer day.

 

That's the whole point, the germans trusted their pilots to not jam the throttle forward the russians didn't so they didn't even give them the option to.

[NZTyphoon]

5 hours ago, Talon_ said:

 

Spits were redesignated FR if they had cameras fitted and the conversion for fuselage only was super simple. There's no real distinction between FR XIVE and regular XIVE other than a few small fittings from Supermarine, so be careful on reports in that regard. Quite a few FRs never flew with a camera, and vice versa!

Note, too, that the tactical recce units equipped with Spitfire FR. Mk. XIVs were still able to engage in air-air combat whenever the need arose; thus, don't discount 2, 414 and 430 Sqns, just because they weren't 'pure' fighter units.

Edited September 18, 2018 by NZTyphoon
Wouldn't you know it, images failing to process...

[IVJG4-Knight]

12 hours ago, Bremspropeller said:

 

Cut the misty-eyed nationalist peephole crap.

 

 

First of all i was responding to something absurd like germans always had bad planes.I was just mirroring he's nationalism .Also for such uncalled for insults I will just ignore you from now on.

As for what you wrote it's basically fantasy . Meteor was way inferior to me262 and not even combat used in comparable numbers if at all .Vampire used in combat during ww2 ? Fantasy.

I don't think we can come to any consensus now or in the future as our opinions are too different .

 

@ Everybody else.

 

At least the combat reports on the ww2 performance website are too one sided.Post some german air kills described from german PoV. I would be happy with that .

Everybody is more passionate about planes that flew either on allied side or german side .It's very rare or not possible to be  100% not biased that likes all sides the same.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 18, 2018 by IVJG4-Knight

[=EXPEND=13SchwarzeHand]

4 hours ago, 15th_JonRedcorn said:

hat's the whole point, the germans trusted their pilots to not jam the throttle forward the russians didn't so they didn't even give them the option to.

 

Yes they trusted their pilots so much to give them an engine option that instakills the engine after 1!!! Minute of use. That’s because every German pilot had a bionic timer built into him that would alarm him after that 1 minute. Which is also the reason you will not find any timer in the cockpit of the F4 onward (even though they were available, but bionic is so much better)

 

It is funny that even though no one has ever been able to provide a single document supporting the 1 minute in game time limit, the fact that it is in game convinces people it is real ?

Edited September 18, 2018 by =EXPEND=SchwarzeDreizehn

[ZachariasX]

1 hour ago, IVJG4-Knight said:

Meteor was way inferior to me262 and not even combat used in comparable numbers if at all .

Ehm. Inferior? The jet engines were not blowing up as nicely? They could have sent many to the squadrons if they accepted jet engines such as the German pilots had to deal with. If it came to a duel between those two, I‘d rather have 4 Hispanos than the 4 Mk108. speed was about the same.

 

Besides, there was no real need to mass produce the Meteors, as the war was won either way. On top of that, they were forbidden to cross the lines to not fall in German or Rusdian hands. The latter is actually funny, as some British moron thought he could make money by sending the Russians a Nene engine shortly after that. I wonder whether he even got the money for that one engine.

 

Regarding Mr. Wiliams and his biased combat reports, I think it is already bloody nice of him to share these many documents that he has. I should think that it is much easier to find Allied combat reports than German ones (lest Japanese ones). But if you find some (or many) please share them.

 

 

12 minutes ago, =EXPEND=SchwarzeDreizehn said:

That’s because every German pilot had a bionic timer built into him that would alarm him after that 1 minute. Which is also the reason you will not find any timer in the cockpit of the F4 onward (even though they were available, but bionic is so much better)

They just didn‘t want to throw away good watches like that. On the other hand, every English watch that is lost is a service to mankind. 

Edited September 18, 2018 by ZachariasX

[Cpt_Siddy]

34 minutes ago, ZachariasX said:

 

Besides, there was no real need to mass produce the Meteors, as the war was won either way. On top of that, they were forbidden to cross the lines to not fall in German or Rusdian hands. The latter is actually funny, as some British moron thought he could make money by sending the Russians a Nene engine shortly after that. I wonder whether he even got the money for that one engine.

 

 

 

Brits sold few soon after war to USSR. The first Mig's were using copies of them, and that's why they look like thick cigars. It was not "some" British moron, it was Labor government... so you should use plural of moron, "morons".  

Edited September 18, 2018 by Cpt_Siddy

[HagarTheHorrible]

The only conclusion I seem to be able to draw, after 10 pages, is that in late 44, early 45, there was a lot of confusion as to exactly what was actually happening at SQN level, how widespread, or how fully implemented any official dictates were.

 

What does seem to happen, as Kurfürst has alluded to is that, mistakenly or otherwise, 1.98ata was authorized, it seems to have then been deautherized, presumably because engines were being damaged, before eventually being re-authorized later in the Winter, or early 45.

 

If I had a question, it would be, and presumably can't be answered. What combat losses can be attributed to operator error, destroyed engines (when max engine power was presumably mostly used) ?  I can only assume that if the withdraw notice came from up high, after official tests, then front line units also experienced problems, how they acted on that is open to question.

[7.GShAP/Silas]

30 minutes ago, Cpt_Siddy said:

 

 

Brits sold few soon after war to USSR. The first Mig's were using copies of them, and that's why they look like thick cigars. It was not "some" British moron, it was Labor government... so you should use plural of moron, "morons".  

 

 

Yes, the British government seems to have been afflicted by some strange bout of insanity at the end of the war regarding their actions with the Soviet Union, among others.

Edited September 18, 2018 by 7.GShAP/Silas

[unreasonable]

35 minutes ago, 7.GShAP/Silas said:

 

 

Yes, the British government seems to have been afflicted by some strange bout of insanity at the end of the war regarding their actions with the Soviet Union, among others.

 

What is insane about giving top secret technology to another state that you (the British Labour Party) regard as having the most perfect system of government?

 

You might as well say that the Conservative government earlier were insane for giving the US the secrets of the cavity magnetron, along with much else. 

[ZachariasX]

1 hour ago, Cpt_Siddy said:

 

 

Brits sold few soon after war to USSR. The first Mig's were using copies of them, and that's why they look like thick cigars. It was not "some" British moron, it was Labor government... so you should use plural of moron, "morons".  

In all fairness, the Russians "sold" Su-27 to the Chinese, hoping they pay for "license building". I bet you still can make any Chinese giggle if you refer him to that happening.

 

The Americans nowadays are much better at dealing with such. They let the whole world steal gigabytes from data form large number of contractors about their new "one-size-fits-all" Wunderwaffe F-35, leaving all those fiendish robberers with plans for an aircraft that resits flying propperly, hoping they include that rubbish in their own designs. Now that is what I call psy-ops! And yes, there are people, even paying for that scrap metal, so, it's really a win-win. Disseminating plans for nukes that don't nuke well was much harder and they always got caught doing that.

[Talon_]

56 minutes ago, HagarTheHorrible said:

The only conclusion I seem to be able to draw, after 10 pages, is that in late 44, early 45, there was a lot of confusion as to exactly what was actually happening at SQN level, how widespread, or how fully implemented any official dictates were.

 

What does seem to happen, as Kurfürst has alluded to is that, mistakenly or otherwise, 1.98ata was authorized, it seems to have then been deautherized, presumably because engines were being damaged, before eventually being re-authorized later in the Winter, or early 45.

 

If I had a question, it would be, and presumably can't be answered. What combat losses can be attributed to operator error, destroyed engines (when max engine power was presumably mostly used) ?  I can only assume that if the withdraw notice came from up high, after official tests, then front line units also experienced problems, how they acted on that is open to question.

 

So far we're missing evidence of operational use of 1.98 by combat units involved in our career. That's the main issue right now - no pilot accounts or documentation anywhere that suggest 1.98 made it to the front.

[Cpt_Siddy]

14 minutes ago, ZachariasX said:

In all fairness, the Russians "sold" Su-27 to the Chinese, hoping they pay for "license building". I bet you still can make any Chinese giggle if you refer him to that happening.

 

 

 

Russians are giggling now when they sold S-300 to India. 

 

And only reason India needs them is ...well, the giggling Chinese. 

 

And the F-35? Even if you got the data, there is really no point in developing new super manned platform, when we are entering in to the age of drones. 

There is nothing you can fight with F-35, because the systems it relies on will not survive full on Wold War 3 and retain its electronics edge.

F-35, without its electronics sweet, is just a fat, slow turkey that will lose to Cessna with a stinger. And any country that can't counter F-35's abilities (read: nuke everything and take out orbital support) can be subdued with old tech. 

Edited September 18, 2018 by Cpt_Siddy

[unreasonable]

Time for a picture of a giggling Chinese:

 

 

[Cpt_Siddy]

10 minutes ago, unreasonable said:

Time for a picture of a giggling Chinese:

 

 

 

 

What hentai that is from? 

 

 

Also, the proper poster image for this thread...

Edited September 18, 2018 by Cpt_Siddy

[JV69badatflyski]

2 hours ago, ZachariasX said:

Ehm. Inferior? The jet engines were not blowing up as nicely? They could have sent many to the squadrons if they accepted jet engines such as the German pilots had to deal with. If it came to a duel between those two, I‘d rather have 4 Hispanos than the 4 Mk108. speed was about the same.

 

Besides, there was no real need to mass produce the Meteors, as the war was won either way. On top of that, they were forbidden to cross the lines to not fall in German or Rusdian hands. The latter is actually funny, as some British moron thought he could make money by sending the Russians a Nene engine shortly after that. I wonder whether he even got the money for that one engine.

 

Regarding Mr. Wiliams and his biased combat reports, I think it is already bloody nice of him to share these many documents that he has. I should think that it is much easier to find Allied combat reports than German ones (lest Japanese ones). But if you find some (or many) please share them.

 

 

They just didn‘t want to throw away good watches like that. On the other hand, every English watch that is lost is a service to mankind. 

Hey zach, on Mike's page, there is a full evaluation report of the Meteor MKIII,  their conclusion is rather simple: not fit for combat.
It's really a nice straight read (50pages)
You may have whatever guns you want on your airplane, if your airplane isn't able to initiate a turn (turns start with ailerons) you're toasted. i'm not saying meteor hadn't any great turn circle, i'm saying the meteor needed a lot of time to get into the turn, if you want some english analogy, it would be like this if any plane came behind the meteor:

                     pilot: "ooh i got a boogey on my six, will initiate turn"...trying to throw the stick on the right or on the left....heavyyyyyy, notthing happens.
meanwhile: pilot talking to it's virtual co-pilot: "i started the turn, may i have some thea please?
                     virtual co-pilot: "of course, here you are, i'm pouring slowly to keep the taste intact"
                     pilot: "thank you my dear, are those home made butter cookies?"
                     virtual co-pilot: "off course they are, do you want some?
                     Pilot: "i'd be delighted" even maybe two, i have time, my turn has been initiated, still waiting for the ailerons to respond"
                     virtual co-pilot: " off course my dear, i'll through you a few in a doggy bag, for when you get PoW"
                     Pilot: " aaaah??? shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit!!!!!!"
                    30mm bullets exploding everywhere.....(also because the wings are so huge, it's an easy target)

In this RAE report, you'll find also that the engines had their problems of their own and that actually there were not so reliable as the internet legend/Allied propaganda wants us to be.
Really worth a read.
I recommend.
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/meteor/Meteor-CFE.pdf

Edited September 18, 2018 by JV69badatflyski

[ZachariasX]

3 minutes ago, JV69badatflyski said:

Hey zach, on Mike's page, there is a full evaluation report of the Meteor MKIII,  their conclusion is rather simple: not fit for combat.
It's really a nice straight read (50pages)

Oh, haven't seen it. But I will check that out. Thnx!

 

5 minutes ago, JV69badatflyski said:

if your airplane isn't able to initiate a turn (turns start with ailerons) you're toasted.

I didn''t know that they only flew straight line ahead at 616 squadron.

[unreasonable]

If you actually want people to read a report rather than just make a rhetorical point, provide a link. It takes you all of ten seconds.

[JV69badatflyski]

3 minutes ago, unreasonable said:

If you actually want people to read a report rather than just make a rhetorical point, provide a link. It takes you all of ten seconds.

i'm too lazy ? and i like rhetorical sarcastic points.
link added.

5 minutes ago, ZachariasX said:

Oh, haven't seen it. But I will check that out. Thnx!

 

I didn''t know that they only flew straight line ahead at 616 squadron.

what was their primary role? chasing fighters or missiles?

[ZachariasX]

3 minutes ago, JV69badatflyski said:

what was their primary role? chasing fighters or missiles?

I thought that at some point turning back to their home airfield was a good start.

Edited September 18, 2018 by ZachariasX

[NZTyphoon]

29 minutes ago, unreasonable said:

If you actually want people to read a report rather than just make a rhetorical point, provide a link. It takes you all of ten seconds.

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/meteor/Meteor-CFE.pdf

 

 

If 2 TAF had more of these all those mighty 109G-14s/G-10s/K-4s would have been toast, while these would have turned Fw 190D-9s into toast with a layer of butter and some jam (preferably raspberry).

Edited September 18, 2018 by NZTyphoon

[7.GShAP/Silas]

1 hour ago, unreasonable said:

 

What is insane about giving top secret technology to another state that you (the British Labour Party) regard as having the most perfect system of government?

 

You might as well say that the Conservative government earlier were insane for giving the US the secrets of the cavity magnetron, along with much else. 

 

The US/British Empire had already undertaken military action against the USSR before the war, the mutual hostility between them(especially from the latter half of WW2 onward) was a secret only to the masses and the lowspeed sections of the military.  Any heartburn within the anglosphere in the modern era can't compare.

 

 

But that's pretty far off topic from some Special K.

 

Edited September 18, 2018 by 7.GShAP/Silas

[Cpt_Siddy]

3 minutes ago, 7.GShAP/Silas said:

 

 

But that's pretty far off topic from some Special K.

 

 

I heard from reliable sources that if you pour some 0.50 calorie milk on them, they crack, pop and shizzle. 

[IVJG4-Knight]

3 hours ago, ZachariasX said:

Ehm. Inferior? The jet engines were not blowing up as nicely? They could have sent many to the squadrons if they accepted jet engines such as the German pilots had to deal with. If it came to a duel between those two, I‘d rather have 4 Hispanos than the 4 Mk108. speed was about the same.

 

Besides, there was no real need to mass produce the Meteors, as the war was won either way. On top of that, they were forbidden to cross the lines to not fall in German or Rusdian hands. The latter is actually funny, as some British moron thought he could make money by sending the Russians a Nene engine shortly after that. I wonder whether he even got the money for that one engine.

 

Regarding Mr. Wiliams and his biased combat reports, I think it is already bloody nice of him to share these many documents that he has. I should think that it is much easier to find Allied combat reports than German ones (lest Japanese ones). But if you find some (or many) please share them.

 

 

They just didn‘t want to throw away good watches like that. On the other hand, every English watch that is lost is a service to mankind. 

 

About the two jets everyone can believe what they like .I don't want to spend more time on this issue .

 

About combat reports there are also british reports that support german planes being better :

"Johnny Johnson himself describes being badly out-turned in flat turns at full power in his Spitfire Mk V against a FW-190A. "

I remember this one from some time ago .Also where's the spitfire V comparison ? Because that's the worst spitfire .I'm sorry It just looks like he picked  info .

 

Again i've said enough and everybody can make their own mind.

 

 

 

 

 

[LeLv76_Erkki]

8 minutes ago, IVJG4-Knight said:

I'm sorry It just looks like he picked  info .

 

I think there may be some slight bias in what data and plane variants were used when compiling the comparison charts, but there is no bias in the digitalization of the reports themselves. They have not been censored or misread when typed out into web pages. But reader has to evaluate the documents him/herself. For example in the Fw 190 vs. P-47(and Hellcat, Corsair) tests they DO say that its a ground attack 190(unspecified variant, on the site they call it by two different variants but the actual reports dont say anything) with a very rough running engine. And presented data on, for example on the 109, can vary a lot from test to another.

 

Also it is not surprising that there is significantly more wartime documentation available on (Western) Allied machines than German or especially Japanese.

Edited September 18, 2018 by LeLv76_Erkki

[ZachariasX]

34 minutes ago, IVJG4-Knight said:

About combat reports there are also british reports that support german planes being better :

"Johnny Johnson himself describes being badly out-turned in flat turns at full power in his Spitfire Mk V against a FW-190A. "

I remember this one from some time ago .Also where's the spitfire V comparison ? Because that's the worst spitfire .I'm sorry It just looks like he picked  info .

 

Again i've said enough and everybody can make their own mind.

Darn. You caught me.

[NZTyphoon]

26 minutes ago, IVJG4-Knight said:

I remember this one from some time ago .Also where's the spitfire V comparison ? Because that's the worst spitfire .I'm sorry It just looks like he picked  info .

Mike Williams & Neil Stirling fully intended to write up a Spitfire V vs 190A-2/3/4 & 109F comparison, as well as updating the other Spitfire comparison's as time and new information allowed: trouble was, the instant response to the Spitfire IX & XIV articles by certain luftwhiners was so negative and nasty, that they decided that continuing with new articles, while updating others, wasn't worth the hassle (in addition, they were forced to close their WW2 Aircraft performance forum, because of the same negative and nasty behavior by the same luftwhiners who had joined the forum just to cause trouble). That's all that needs to be said about the whole, sad, sorry episode.

[IVJG4-Knight]

48 minutes ago, LeLv76_Erkki said:

I think there may be some slight bias in what data and plane variants were used when compiling the comparison charts, but there is no bias in the digitalization of the reports themselves. They have not been censored or misread when typed out into web pages. But reader has to evaluate the documents him/herself. For example in the Fw 190 vs. P-47(and Hellcat, Corsair) tests they DO say that its a ground attack 190(unspecified variant, on the site they call it by two different variants but the actual reports dont say anything) with a very rough running engine. And presented data on, for example on the 109, can vary a lot from test to another.

 

Also it is not surprising that there is significantly more wartime documentation available on (Western) Allied machines than German or especially Japanese.

 

I agree with that  .

 

16 minutes ago, NZTyphoon said:

Mike Williams & Neil Stirling fully intended to write up a Spitfire V vs 190A-2/3/4 & 109F comparison, as well as updating the other Spitfire comparison's as time and new information allowed: trouble was, the instant response to the Spitfire IX & XIV articles by certain luftwhiners was so negative and nasty, that they decided that continuing with new articles, while updating others, wasn't worth the hassle (in addition, they were forced to close their WW2 Aircraft performance forum, because of the same negative and nasty behavior by the same luftwhiners who had joined the forum just to cause trouble). That's all that needs to be said about the whole, sad, sorry episode.

 

And you think you distinguish yourself with this name calling like luftwhiners (which you wrote twice btw ) from those immature individuals ?

If i want to read stuff that shows positive things about the german planes and pilots there's little to find and i think there should be more that's all .

 

[Talon_]

4 minutes ago, IVJG4-Knight said:

If i want to read stuff that shows positive things about the german planes and pilots there's little to find and i think there should be more that's all .

 

 

You are welcome to go out there and find it yourself. All of my recent posts are based on research I'm doing in my own time from books (thanks again @EAF19_Marsh ) and reading through heavily watermarked documents from the National Archives. I'm compiling spreadsheets, mapping squadron movement, etc. all with cross-referencing and pilot accounts + ORBs.

Edited September 18, 2018 by Talon_

[EAF19_Marsh]

Quote

If i want to read stuff that shows positive things about the german planes and pilots there's little to find and i think there should be more that's all .

 

There is more stuff out there than there has been at any stage. There are autobiographies, in-depth histories, technical analyses. You want something that touches this, read Caldwell, Creek, Bergstrom or a number of other authors. I have loads of books on the Luftwaffe in English and I presume there are 10 times that number in German. Most of these are very balanced and their critiques - including all the evidence and pilot interviews - makes for great and informative reading.

[ZachariasX]

38 minutes ago, IVJG4-Knight said:

If i want to read stuff that shows positive things about the german planes and pilots there's little to find and i think there should be more that's all .

Why would one want to go and read „positive things about a specific airplane“ rather than „about a specific airplane“? If you want to get literate about any subject, you should be able to get sense from any kind of document. If you only want to see graphs that follow your idea of truth, then you are a clown.