Stuka Dive Bombing

[InProgress]

2 minutes ago, 6./ZG26_5tuka said:

Did you center your rudder trim prior rolling over? Once at speed rudder trim will mess up your flight path and make bombs land unpredictable. Also you might want to execute the rollover slower and dive with brakes to allow for more time for leading and correcting your dive attitude.

Yeah that too There is a button, CTRL+T i think, it should reset everything.

[Mauf]

16 minutes ago, InProgress said:

It feels like you were more than 90 degrees. Hard for me to say, you also attacked this truck from angle like this / so it could also make it weird. I don't know when you dropped bomb but from high position 1cm look like nothing but on the ground it can be 10m away. You never really had that target in your crosshair, it was on the left side. Probably this is why you missed.

 

 

I assume this is when you dropped bomb, (black dot = truck) you were never really aiming on it, vertical red line shows where bomb would hit, it's next to the truck, up/down, whhatever. But it was never going to hit your truck. You could use a bit of peddals to move a bit to the right i guess.

 

Yep, that's about the point. I gave the crosshair a bit more lead since I wasn't at 90° but more 80° (and as Requiem says, you have to give it some deflection for that). If you look at the video, the bomb slipped quite a way towards the other truck to the left of it. It's that slip that has me puzzled. I'm currently not attributing it to my vertical deflection (vertical bar on the crosshair). Maybe that's wrong of me and I'm overlooking something?

 

16 minutes ago, 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann said:

Look at your Slip Indicator during the Dive. You are most  likely slipping at a couple of Degress, you your Point of Aim isn't your Point of Impact. 

 

Could be. I usually try to keep it as close to center as possible but keeping it perfectly smack-bang down in the middle is hard when you do so much stuff at once. How "perfect" does one have to be with this?

 

11 minutes ago, 6./ZG26_5tuka said:

Did you center your rudder trim prior rolling over? Once at speed rudder trim will mess up your flight path and make bombs land unpredictable. Also you might want to execute the rollover slower and dive with brakes to allow for more time for leading and correcting your dive attitude.

 

No, that is something that I will definitely try next chance I get and see if it helps.

 

What confuses me is still that if I just nose dive-bomb, all these things seem to not play a role (or I'm correcting them properly without being aware of it?):P

Edited September 6, 2018 by Mauf

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

3 minutes ago, Mauf said:

Could be. I usually try to keep it as close to center as possible but keeping it perfectly smack-bang down in the middle is hard when you do so much stuff at once. How "perfect" does one have to be with this?

 

You Aiming is always on your Aircraft Center Axis, but your Speed gain and Power Off Dive changes your Rudder Trim Effect massively, throwing your Aim off massively. You may have a Slip Angle of several Degrees by the Point you Drop, resulting in your Aim being off by a Metric Mile. 

[Mauf]

6 minutes ago, 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann said:

You Aiming is always on your Aircraft Center Axis, but your Speed gain and Power Off Dive changes your Rudder Trim Effect massively, throwing your Aim off massively. You may have a Slip Angle of several Degrees by the Point you Drop, resulting in your Aim being off by a Metric Mile. 

 

I shall investigate that. Thinking about it, I keep the rudder pretty constant but assuming that I gain speed and the deflection should increase, it's pretty likely that by the point of bomb release, I have a lot of slip again (and it would fit my observation that the deflection is sideways mostly). I only check slip shortly into the dive. Thanks for the hint.

Edited September 6, 2018 by Mauf

[montag]

Hey Mauf. I just wanted to say thank you for making this thread as the discussion has been very interesting. I will just add that I agree that keeping the ball centered is very important. Slipping will mean your cross hair does not line up with your direction of flight and it will make it much harder to get the target in the cross hair. You could maybe try some dives without a target and concentrate more on smooth flying. For a few dives work on maybe the wing over or the bunt, whichever. The next few you can work on the dive angle. Then you can work on your rudder work. Eventually you can piece it all together for some real destruction. I find breaking down what I need to work on helps me progress my skills faster even though its tempting to try and get everything right all at once.

 

Also your thread has inspired me to work on dive bombing again. I used to in CloD for a while. I never take the Stuka out on WoL because I fly alone a lot and like to be in something fast like the 110 G2 or the A20 if I am ground pounding as I don't like giving people easy air kills. A flight of stuka's though would be really fun to be in. I once saw a huge flight on WoL of at least 12 Stukas, but I didn't get to participate as I had just hopped on for some 109 flying. It was pretty awesome though watching all of the Stukas go to work at the target.

Edited September 6, 2018 by sealgaire
Adding more.

[Thad]

19 hours ago, Mauf said:

Still, I would really like to get the roll-over version mastered too, looks much fancier:D

Absolutely, in the end, looking good is what combat flying is all about. ?

[Mauf]

So gentleman, I just nailed 8 roll-over dive bombs in a row (and the 9th was bloody damn close, I swear). All of the points listed here were very valuable and are things I need to improve upon. But wanna know what the real culprit was?

 

 

It was the bloody wind. When in dive, I of course used the rudder to coordinate the plane... crosshair down on target, rudder to keep it from wandering sideways... of course, when you have your plane pushed sideways by the wind because you bloody forgot to check whether you have wind on and you're not following the "dive into the wind" advice, a coordinated flight would look like the crosshair wandering with the winds direction and a crosshair that remains stable on target actually means you're slanting your plane to compensate for the drift messing up your aim. Since I always used the same quick mission and the same target, I never had a different wind situation and never noticed the effect change.

 

Once I did the proper dive into the wind (with a bit of compensation on the crosshair for deflection) things went smoothly. Disabling wind resolved the issue altogether.

 

Now on to training it properly and making it look smooth like butter. Thanks to everyone in this thread for the help and I hope fellow dive bumbling fools learn something from it.

 

 

Edited September 6, 2018 by Mauf

[NETSCAPE]

On wind: it looks like most multiplayer mission designers make the wind all from the same direction at all altitudes, which is stupid. In singleplayer you will notice by default the direction changes (this can be observed by setting any amount of wind speed and checking the magical wind data if you are in a bomber/bombsite view).

 

In real life these wind direction changes can sometimes be dramatic. I won't dig through Mahlke's book again today, but I do recall him entering that situation in the dive as you previously described by gamers in this thread, like spinning a 180 or 360 in the dive to try and aim. Mahlke says that most of their bombs ended up off target due to dramatic wind direction changes while in the dive... so it even happened to the pro's... just sayin.

 

Yesterday after this discussion my mind was on Stuka's so I got back in one and tried a few attacks. I was rusty and missed my first dive target by about 30m. The following 3 were dead on target. I think I had the wind speed at 1m/s in the QM. Granted that's at ground level. I'll try it on 3 or even 5 m/s today just for fun. When in doubt, drop bombs lower I say and pull back on that stick hard!

Edited September 6, 2018 by NETSCAPE

[Mauf]

6 minutes ago, NETSCAPE said:

On wind: it looks like most multiplayer mission designers make the wind all from the same direction at all altitudes, which is stupid. In singleplayer you will notice by default the direction changes (this can be observed by setting any amount of wind speed and checking the magical wind data if you are in a bomber/bombsite view).

 

In real life these wind direction changes can sometimes be dramatic. I won't dig through Mahlke's book again today, but I do recall him entering that situation in the dive as you previously described by gamers in this thread, like spinning a 180 or 360 in the dive to try and aim. Mahlke says that most of their bombs ended up off target due to dramatic wind direction changes while in the dive... so it even happened to the pro's... just sayin.

And THAT is a good thing, speaks to the accuracy of the simulation (if used properly). I think my experience here just demonstrates why looking at what the real pilots did can be very valuable to us in the game and hence why we should look at these books for hints. I was really surprised of how much even a soft wind already affects my aim. I'll definitely train more on stronger winds to at least be able to judge the effect.

[[DBS]El_Marta]

US training film on dive bombing in three parts. I find part 2 especially worth watching:

Edited September 8, 2018 by [DBS]El_Marta

[FodderMonkey]

Not sure if anyone has mentioned this, but the difference between a roll-over and a nose-down is fuel injection. The Germans had it on their 109’s, but the Hurricane was carbureted. Early in the Battle of Britain the Germans realized they could simply nose down to escape a Hurricane, while the British had to take time to roll over to avoid starving their engine for fuel and regain their target after the roll. Early pilots would likely have been trained on the roll technique, especially if their trainer aircraft lacked fuel injection. I’m not sure on the specifics of the Stuka engine but it was likely injected as well, leaving it to the pilot’s discretion as to how to enter a dive.

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

10 hours ago, FodderMonkey said:

Not sure if anyone has mentioned this, but the difference between a roll-over and a nose-down is fuel injection. The Germans had it on their 109’s, but the Hurricane was carbureted. Early in the Battle of Britain the Germans realized they could simply nose down to escape a Hurricane, while the British had to take time to roll over to avoid starving their engine for fuel and regain their target after the roll. Early pilots would likely have been trained on the roll technique, especially if their trainer aircraft lacked fuel injection. I’m not sure on the specifics of the Stuka engine but it was likely injected as well, leaving it to the pilot’s discretion as to how to enter a dive.

The Pre-War Ju-87A had the JuMo 210, which was a much smaller, much less Powerful (550 to 700hp) and carburetted in most Versions. These were the early Legion Condor Pilots  and Planes who brought back their Experience and Technique to the Luftwaffe Pilots who would then go on into WWII.

The Roll over also just looked really good iin the Wochenschau.

[Lusekofte]

On 9/6/2018 at 5:01 PM, 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann said:

You Aiming is always on your Aircraft Center Axis, but your Speed gain and Power Off Dive changes your Rudder Trim Effect massively, throwing your Aim off massively. You may have a Slip Angle of several Degrees by the Point you Drop, resulting in your Aim being off by a Metric Mile. 

I never dive 90 degree angle. Then you have to control all 4 axis. I have a steep dive make sure not using rudders into the target. As Mann says coming in skidding sideways only make you miss

[Sublime]

Ok wait wait. With the auto thing Im supposed to drop when the horn stops?

 good to know. My accuracy had dropped. Not to awful levels.. but noticeably.

Fwiw I dont even bother with roll overs.  I fly zig zags almost to keep the target to my 10 or 1 o clock.  As I near I do a diving turn into my targets.

I find - for me - it too easy to misjudge a bunt ans the negative Gs are a PITA.  Rolling over can go wrong so many ways. But basically with dive flaps open if youre off target you feel like youre suspended there while flak shoots. Its not but hell it must make it easier. Lotta dying that way. (If this was IRL Id have the armorer cover my floor window)

The exception to my zig zag attack is if I know theres likely good flak or fighters. Then Ill pay close attention to the route in and out.  I will purposefully miss my target by flying paralell past it.  I fly these very low level and it takes practice with navigation. I still mess up often.  Close to target i rev engine as fast as she can- pick up speed and climb to 1km tops- slow to continous - flak should perhaps be stsrting but this pop up should if done correctly allow you to find your target, adjust, and immediately dive to attack.

The golden rule is unless undefended 1 pass only. Any plane.

MP undefended? 2 or 3 passes before youre in extreme danger of aerial interception

[Blitzen]

Slightly OT: Recently I have started hearing a ‘pull-out’ horn during dive bombing attacks & apparently an auto bomb drop ( tho I’m not sure about this.I wonder if the auto pull out has recently been added with an update? There was some discussion about its absence early on ( as compared to the olde IL-2 1946 Stukas,) and if I remember correctly many said that generally this device was disabled by Stuka pilots who wanted to decide when to drop there bombs. If I am correct about it now in game, is there a way to disable it?

[Yogiflight]

1 hour ago, Blitzen said:

If I am correct about it now in game, is there a way to disable it?

Don't enable it

[Blitzen]

If it is indeed "enabled " I didn't do it....

[Plurp]

4 minutes ago, Blitzen said:

If it is indeed "enabled " I didn't do it....

It cannot be disabled in the stuka

 

 

[Yogiflight]

1 hour ago, Blitzen said:

If it is indeed "enabled " I didn't do it....

Sorry mate, I thought I was flying a Stuka career after the update 4.002, which implemented the dive recovery system, but it obviously was before. I just did some test missions and yes it is enabled always in the Stuka.

 

[Requiem]

7 hours ago, Blitzen said:

Slightly OT: Recently I have started hearing a ‘pull-out’ horn during dive bombing attacks & apparently an auto bomb drop ( tho I’m not sure about this.I wonder if the auto pull out has recently been added with an update? There was some discussion about its absence early on ( as compared to the olde IL-2 1946 Stukas,) and if I remember correctly many said that generally this device was disabled by Stuka pilots who wanted to decide when to drop there bombs. If I am correct about it now in game, is there a way to disable it?

Set the contact altimeter to zero height. That way if it goes off you'll only hear it for a fraction of a second before you explode upon hitting the ground.

[BB-Madman]

18 minutes ago, SYN_Requiem said:

Set the contact altimeter to zero height. That way if it goes off you'll only hear it for a fraction of a second before you explode upon hitting the ground.

 

[-FISTN-V-T]

I used to have troubles hitting while divebombing, then i realized i should STOP using rudders. This is because rudder causes me to fly sideways. 

 

Rolling over to dive has a few good sides to it: it makes it harder for target to track me. I first fly over the target (causes target to turn AAA 180 degrees), then roll, dive, drop, and pull up (again, another 180 degree turn for target to track me in case i miss). 

 

Biggest trouble with rolling over before dive is leveling out. too many times the dive angle is off, and one dives down sideways. I tend to take a peek upwards to align the horizon with canopy frames to ensure i'm really diving down, not left or right. And the trick is to roll to line up, not pushing rudders.

 

And also i tend to do almost vertical dives as i'm too bad at aiming with angles.

 

Now i hit my targets pretty well. To ensure destruction, pick big enough bomb. Direct hit isn't always needed ;) 

 

S!