Unclear engine limitations/tech tips in some planes

[=RvE=Windmills]

Most planes are fully accurate on their tech tips, matchin up with the technical specification sheet. This gives a very clear idea of what mode your engine is in and how long it will last in this mode. However, some planes do not really adhere to this.

 

Probably the clearest example is the P39. Its spec sheet lists the following power ratings. 'Nominal', 'military power', 'take off power' and 'maximum possible power'. However, ingame the tech tips will only display 3 modes, 'continuous mode', 'combat mode' and 'emergency mode'. Not only does it use completely different names for each mode, one of the modes listed in the specifications is entirely missing from the tech tips.

 

Other planes that have comparable issues are:

 

Spitfire IX, while both tech tips and spec sheet have 3 power modes, it uses different names.

 

'Max cruising' = continuous

'International'= combat

'Emergency max all out' = emergency

 

Spitfire V is comparable, but 'Emergency max all out' is now instead referred to as 'boosted mode' ingame.

 

 

A20, the tech sheet lists 'cruise', 'nominal' and 'combat'. Yet ingame there is merely a 'continuous' and an 'emergency' mode. The latter is not even listed at all on the tech sheet.

 

P40, 'takeoff power' is actually 'emergency power', and 'all out power' is not mentioned at all when engaged by the tech tips ingame.

 

This is probably not a complete list but I think it makes the point clear. For me personally I'm fine with how the sim handles engine limits, but it does need to always be clear on which mode you are in and what the limits are. For some planes that are already somewhat difficult to manage their engines (P39/P40), this makes it even harder.

I really likes Il2s UI, the devs have done a great job at balancing accessibility with complexity. Which is why this aspect is so confusing to me. Why do most planes match exactly with their stat sheet, but other planes diverge completely from it? Not being able to rely on ingame tech tips for 'some' planes hurts this accessibility and I hope this gets changed in the future.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[-TBC-AeroAce]

I completely agree but be prepared for all the hardcore pilots to jump in this thread to let you know that tips is cheating and you should turn them off .....blah

[Ehret]

2 hours ago, Windmills said:

I really likes Il2s UI, the devs have done a great job at balancing accessibility with complexity. Which is why this aspect is so confusing to me. Why do most planes match exactly with their stat sheet, but other planes diverge completely from it? Not being able to rely on ingame tech tips for 'some' planes hurts this accessibility and I hope this gets changed in the future.

 

No all engines modes can map directly to the GUI's "continuous/combat/emergency" plus "boosted" notices. In case of the P-39 you have nominal/military/takeoff/max but not a boost function. That's why last 2 are in the GUI's emergency message. (probably)

 

Looking at P-39L/K manual names are different, still: "take-off, emergency-maximum, continuous-maximum, economical-maximum".

 

Ideally, each different plane should get own power mode names just like they are in manuals. However, not homogeneous notices could result in confusion, too, especially for pilots flying many different airplanes.

Edited August 26, 2018 by Ehret

[Jade_Monkey]

Yes, the technochat has a standard language across the board and not a plane-by-plane engine mode name.

 

I feel your pain, that's the exact reason why i ended up creating the pilot notes (guides section), so i can fly by the planes specs instead of taking cues from the technochat.

 

Once you focus on a plane for a while you will end up learning the engine settings pretty quickly.

 

 

Edit: take a look at the printouts if interested. They are straight from the game, just formatted differently.

Edited August 26, 2018 by Jade_Monkey

[unreasonable]

1 hour ago, AeroAce said:

I completely agree but be prepared for all the hardcore pilots to jump in this thread to let you know that tips is cheating and you should turn them off .....blah

 

Oh snap! That was exactly my thought when reading the OP. 

9 minutes ago, Jade_Monkey said:

Yes, the technochat has a standard language across the board and not a plane-by-plane engine mode name.

 

I feel your pain, that's the exact reason why i ended up creating the pilot notes (guides section), so i can fly by the planes specs instead of taking cues from the technochat.

 

Once you focus on a plane for a while you will end up learning the engine settings pretty quickly.

 

 Indeed  - i find a good old fashioned paper pocket notebook with a page for each plane listing key engine settings and anything else weird about the plane does the trick. I just add one plane at a time when I do a training circuit or two and then have the notebook next to the joystick  if I need an in-flight reminder.  

[JonRedcorn]

1 hour ago, AeroAce said:

I completely agree but be prepared for all the hardcore pilots to jump in this thread to let you know that tips is cheating and you should turn them off .....blah

Can you ever make a post without shitting on this Sims player base? ?

[Barnacles]

1 hour ago, AeroAce said:

I completely agree but be prepared for all the hardcore pilots to jump in this thread to let you know that tips is cheating and you should turn them off .....blah

tips is cheating and you should turn them off

[=RvE=Windmills]

1 hour ago, Jade_Monkey said:

Yes, the technochat has a standard language across the board and not a plane-by-plane engine mode name.

 

I feel your pain, that's the exact reason why i ended up creating the pilot notes (guides section), so i can fly by the planes specs instead of taking cues from the technochat.

 

Once you focus on a plane for a while you will end up learning the engine settings pretty quickly.

 

Does it? Because for instance the 110E and 109E both have 4 engine modes and techno chat correctly displays this (continuous>combat>emergency>boosted), down to the wording. With the Spit V and A20, the spit has 'boosted' as max while the A20 skips 'combat'.

 

There doesn't really seem to be a standard for technochat, as it already modifies itself per plane to some degree. Considering it can apparently do so accurately for most planes, why not for all? The different wording is an annoyance, but not a huge thing. Actually missing modes from tech chat I find to be a fairly major thing.

 

There's evidently no real issue for tech chat to show 4 engine modes, but it just does not for planes like the P39.

 

This feels more like an oversight then some limitation of the system.

 

Also, yes I agree memorizing/notes is the solution here but I would like the sim to be as intuitive and consistent as possible. Especially to newcomers this is very important. It doesn't seem right that some planes arbitrarily can rely fully on HUD information while others need to keep a close eye on instruments.

Edited August 26, 2018 by Windmills

[Jade_Monkey]

What I mean is that they don't use the same nomenclature as the plane's manual, or the specs sheet for that matter.

So what TC calls combat, might be called International Power for the Spitfire for example. This leads to some confusion over which modes are equivalent when there are more than one that don't follow the same shceme.

[Legioneod]

1 hour ago, 15th_JonRedcorn said:

Can you ever make a post without shitting on this Sims player base? ?

Well there are a few known people on these forums who are a-holes.

 

OP, best bet is just have a list of notes like everyone else posted, it helps alot when flying a new aircraft or when you need a reminder on engine limitations.

[Willy__]

I agree with you OP, but I dont think we will see any changes anytime soon. The best advice I can give you for now is: focus on RPM's and ATA/mmHg/PSI instead of the nomenclature of the UI 

[=RvE=Windmills]

1 hour ago, Legioneod said:

Well there are a few known people on these forums who are a-holes.

 

OP, best bet is just have a list of notes like everyone else posted, it helps alot when flying a new aircraft or when you need a reminder on engine limitations.

 

Sure, but its a workaround. The whole idea with the techno chat is that you shouldn't really need to do this.

 

11 minutes ago, Willy__ said:

I agree with you OP, but I dont think we will see any changes anytime soon. The best advice I can give you for now is: focus on RPM's and ATA/mmHg/PSI instead of the nomenclature of the UI 

 

Likely, though it would be nice to have it going forward at least, plenty of machines still coming up. I do hope its something they can go back to at some point for the already released planes though.

Edited August 26, 2018 by Windmills

[Guest deleted@134347]

interestingly in .. dare I say it.. VR.. we are forced to learn to read the manifold pressure/rpm numbers and learn which reading corresponds with the appropriate engine mode. And the reason why we are forced to learn it is because turning on the HUD takes away 10-20fps from the performance, which extremely noticeable inside the headset. I have a hotas button mapped to toggle on the HUD for 1-2 seconds just to read the chats or see if my engine is reporting as 'damaged' after a dog fight (if i'm not trailing anything).

[-TBC-AeroAce]

On 8/26/2018 at 3:09 PM, 15th_JonRedcorn said:

Can you ever make a post without [Edited] on this Sims player base? ?

 

There are some and there are many.

 

TBH with you I have always tried to talk about features for normal play such as adjustable icons, corrected tech chat... the list is very big and I have always been [edited] on by the hardcore community saying that I need to grow up and play full real ... and that I need to learn .... and ...... 

 

Most of the things that I have raised have been to correct subtle things like the OP is talking about just for the sake of correctness and or having a feature truly work as intended. I know how to fly all planes without helpers...

 

Maybe Im a lil sick of the hardcore people beating me down because I like and are happy with normal.

 

Who is [edited] on who can be unclear. 

Edited August 28, 2018 by SYN_Haashashin
Lenguage

[sniperton]

@Windmills: I suggest you should report your findings in the GUI section of the bugreport. Otherwise there's little chance that the devs take notice of the discrepancies you mentioned.

[klebor]

It is not a bug.

It's a decision to put the workforce in much more important matters. Technochat is kind of novice players help to more or less know the limits of the plane. I doubt it is even consider to expand it even more to cover every specific engine regime in every plane.

 

Who would lose the time to code all  low mix different economy modes, cruise, nominal, different types of combat, climb, emergency, take off, all out, maximum possible, boost, erhohte, forsazh, international power with different mix, RPM, manifold, supercharger settings and so on and so on.

Devs would lose a big amount of precious time to code some tutorial functionality. Techno will give you some estimated most basic regimes when you are begginer (and lie you in many cases) and that's all you need to know for start. When you will know the plane better just print them from official topic or from here and you are good to go:

 

Edited August 28, 2018 by sereme1

[=RvE=Windmills]

6 hours ago, sereme1 said:

Technochat is kind of novice players help to more or less know the limits of the plane.

 

There are strict time limits, not 'more or less limits'. If an engine mode lasts pretty much exactly a minute, I don't want a 'more or less' indication,

something precise is required. And it is precise for the majority of planes.

 

6 hours ago, sereme1 said:

I doubt it is even consider to expand it even more to cover every specific engine regime in every plane.

 

It doesn't need to be expanded, just to cover the few modes for the few planes it does not cover right now.

 

6 hours ago, sereme1 said:

Who would lose the time to code all  low mix different economy modes, cruise, nominal, different types of combat, climb, emergency, take off, all out, maximum possible, boost, erhohte, forsazh, international power with different mix, RPM, manifold, supercharger settings and so on and so on.

 

Who is asking for this exactly? Because I'm strictly talking about anything that affects engine limits.

 

 

6 hours ago, sereme1 said:

Devs would lose a big amount of precious time to code some tutorial functionality.

 

It's extremely helpful information for newer players, as well as extremely useful to have these projected on the HUD. Rather than having to look at RPM/manifold and comparing notes.

 

6 hours ago, sereme1 said:

Techno will give you some estimated most basic regimes when you are begginer

 

It gives you all regimes with a timer on them, you know, the critical ones. At least for the vast majority of planes.

 

6 hours ago, sereme1 said:

and lie you in many cases

 

When exactly? That should be a bug.

 

6 hours ago, sereme1 said:

When you will know the plane better just print them from official topic or from here and you are good to go

 

Again, not the point I'm arguing.

 

 

 

[klebor]

49 minutes ago, Windmills said:

There are strict time limits, not 'more or less limits'.

Let's take Fw 190 A3 or A5. You have 3 minutes of 1.42ata/2700RPM guaranteed but in practice you can go more than 6 minutes. With ~5 minutes you are 99% save all the time.

So there are no "strict limits". The engine is not going to give up after the time delivered by developers from manual.

(In real life the engines would go even longer but it's another story)

 

49 minutes ago, Windmills said:

When exactly? That should be a bug.

No, it's not a bug, it's a choice and necessary simplification of techno. If you supass the limit by 1% what is completely insignificant techno will tell you you are in i.e. "combat mode", "don't cruise with combat mode" and so on. But you exeeded the RPM limit by 1% what will not have any consequences contrary to what you could anticipate seeing "combat mode" warning.

Anyway it's sufficient for novice players which have to know the basics.

Edited August 28, 2018 by sereme1

[=RvE=Windmills]

1 hour ago, sereme1 said:

With ~5 minutes you are 99% save all the time.

So there are no "strict limits"

 

On my first try I killed the engine in 4:30 so your odds seem unlikely.

 

And no, the fact that there's margins involved does not disprove that the timer exists and matters. Unless there are notably different margins used for each aircraft it is completely besides the point.

 

1 hour ago, sereme1 said:

Anyway it's sufficient for novice players which have to know the basics. 

 

Yeah I've read this phrase enough by now, thanks I get it.

 

The funny thing is that technochat being precise and consistent is most important to these 'novice players' you keep saying its for. That's partly the point I'm making so you don't even really disagree.

Edited August 28, 2018 by Windmills