Air to air claims ???

[NiiranenVR]

Der Herren ( und die Fruen ) 

The claims I can get - is it when a plane  is shoot down or its ok only Damage a plane ??

 

 

A little story - I have just landed my plane .... I open the Windows 'VR' and see Holes after bullets in my plane - allso through my cockpit ? ...... Issue or not , but om still Alive ✌️?

 

 

Sire

[Taxman]

In order to claim a victory the enemy plane must be shot down.  A damaged plane is not a victory, util it crash's. 

[PatrickAWlson]

You should just claim shot down.  If you claim damaged planes there is a chance that the claim will be awarded ... insert long explanations about vague log entries and fuzzy PWCG logic here.

[dburne]

Wait a sec - I mean the game tells you how many air to are kills you got after you complete the mission, that is what you should claim I would think.

Main thing is remembering how many of each type plane that you shoot down.

At least that is what I always do on air to air kills.

 

Bombers - I think if you damage enough they have to drop their bombs prematurely, you are awarded kill for that.

Edited August 20, 2018 by dburne

[PatrickAWlson]

Unfortunately that is not necessarily reflected in the logs.  Sometimes there is a clear victor associated with the victim.  PWCG always honors that.  However, quite often this is not the case, and it is not uncommon that the victim is an aircraft that you most certainly downed.   No idea why.  

 

Because of this PWCG engages in fuzzy logic.  Were there victims with no victors?  Does the type of plane roughly match an unconfirmed claim by the player?  Did the plane crash near a spot where the player was flying?  If yes, yes, and yes then the victory is awarded to the player.

 

Very few players will ever notice this since most players actually under claim rather than vice versa.  However, if a player was to over claim they might be awarded some undeserved victories.  

 

[TheSNAFU]

Interesting indeed. I only claim kills I see go down and at least one other friendly could have confirmed. Works for me and I can barely ever recall getting credits I didn't expect. 

[busdriver]

Pat, speaking of fuzzy logic, please excuse my ignorance. Is it labor intensive on your part to build in some fog of war WRT the ID of victories and the Pilot's or Squadron Journal? When we make a claim, we must select a specific model of airplane. Could you easily aggregate all 109s into simply Bf-109 and likewise use arch type for other airplanes? Could you easily have this general ID appear in the journal rather than Bf-109 E-7 flown by Fw Fritz Pritz of I./SchXX?

 

Thanks for your efforts on our behalf!

 

 

[PatrickAWlson]

I could.  I know it's not entirely realistic, especially for WWII, but I kind of like the detail.  Not sure what the consensus is.   I could keep the logging the same and add a flag that would obfuscate some of the details on presentation.

[Yogiflight]

11 hours ago, dburne said:

Wait a sec - I mean the game tells you how many air to are kills you got after you complete the mission, that is what you should claim I would think.

Main thing is remembering how many of each type plane that you shoot down.

At least that is what I always do on air to air kills.

 

Bombers - I think if you damage enough they have to drop their bombs prematurely, you are awarded kill for that.

The game's AAR map shows you the aircraft types you downed. 

[dburne]

33 minutes ago, Yogiflight said:

The game's AAR map shows you the aircraft types you downed. 

 

Thank you!

I will have to remember to look at that.

[dburne]

On ‎8‎/‎21‎/‎2018 at 5:28 AM, Yogiflight said:

The game's AAR map shows you the aircraft types you downed. 

 

Ok so I am still a little confused (likely dense).

In determining kills to claim, I do not see the AAR really until after I submit my claim showing me what planes I downed?

[PatrickAWlson]

52 minutes ago, dburne said:

 

Ok so I am still a little confused (likely dense).

In determining kills to claim, I do not see the AAR really until after I submit my claim showing me what planes I downed?

 

Correct: you submit your claims.  PWCG mashes that against the logs and awards or denies victories for your claims.  The debrief map comes after that process is complete.

 

Claiming was originally put in place to deal with inaccuracies in the logs.  Key point: what the game prints to the logs does not match what the game tells you on the after mission screen.  To handle this discrepancy PWCG had to implement rules around undefined victories, which are very common in the logs.  The end result is that if you claim exactly what the game tells you in the after mission screen the PWCG results will almost always match.  I suspect that this is what most people do.

 

The advantage of the PWCG system is that it allows players to NOT claim victories that they feel they would not historically have received credit for.  These are the smokers that crash 50km later.  Some people like to do this.  Further, because PWCG will credit your unused victories to AI pilots, it is a way to give victories to your AI squadron mates, which accelerates their improvement.  This was also done historically, where senior pilots would let a junior pilot finish off the victim to get a kill under their belt.  

 

In the end you have flexibility.  If you claim exactly what the game tells you to claim you will almost always get matching results.  If you choose to under claim that can be done too.  If you choose to over claim you may or may not get credit (also historically accurate  )

Edited August 22, 2018 by PatrickAWlson

[dburne]

Great thanks Pat, that is what I have been doing claiming exactly what the game tells me - hopefully I get the aircraft types correct which I usually do I think.

[NiiranenVR]

Well , I could now write for hours - but All be said and explained .... Thanx ??

[FTC_Woop]

If you want to be entirely realistic about it, you can claim like this. o7

 

Luftwaffe claims kills like so:

 

CONFIRMED KILL

Where the aircraft was seen by the claiming pilot and one witness to crash, to be forced to land on enemy territory, to be on fire or where the pilot/crew was seen to parachute from the aircraft. In short, where the enemy aircraft was seen to be destroyed.

 

With no witness you have no kill!

 

Kills cannot be shared in the LW.

 

 

VVS claims like so:

 

CONFIRMED KILL

Where the aircraft was seen by the claiming pilot and one witness to crash, to be forced to land on enemy territory, to be on fire or where the pilot/crew was seen to parachute from the aircraft. In short, where the enemy aircraft was seen to be destroyed.

 

With no witness you have no kill!

 

Claims in the VVS can be either PERSONAL or GROUP claims:

PERSONAL

Where an aircraft was destroyed by a single pilot. The victory is attributed to the claiming pilot only.

GROUP

Where an aircraft was destroyed by several pilots. The victory is attributed to all pilots of that squadron that flew in the sortie.

 

 

RAF claims like so:

 

DESTROYED

Where the aircraft was seen by the claiming pilot, to be forced to land on enemy territory, to be on fire or where the pilot/crew was seen to parachute from the aircraft. In short, where the enemy aircraft was seen to be destroyed.

PROBABLE DESTROYED

Where the destruction of the aircraft was not seen, but where the aircraft was so badly damaged that, in the opinion of the claiming pilot, it could not have reached safety.

SHARED DESTROYED/PROBABLE

Where the aircraft was seen by the claiming pilot, to be forced to land on enemy territory, to be on fire or where the pilot/crew was seen to parachute from the aircraft. In short, where the enemy aircraft was seen to be destroyed. One aircraft may be claimed by two or more pilots, and so it is split equally between them, each getting a proportion of it.

DAMAGED

Where the enemy aircraft was damaged. Can not be shared.

 

 

Edited August 22, 2018 by ACG_Woop

[PatrickAWlson]

1 hour ago, dburne said:

Great thanks Pat, that is what I have been doing claiming exactly what the game tells me - hopefully I get the aircraft types correct which I usually do I think.

 

PWCG is forgiving.  If you claim one kind of fighter but the logs say you shot down another, the kill is credited.  

@ACG_Woop

Thanks for the post.  At the moment I use a "German" method across the board because it is straight forward.  It is also the only method possible given limited information in the logs.  The logs only give me damaged records for the player, so I will not have any idea who damaged whom outside of the player.  Further, victories have either a single victor or no victor at all - never more than one.  As a result shared or partial victories are not possible and damaged records would be limited to the player.

[Murleen]

17 minutes ago, PatrickAWlson said:

 

PWCG is forgiving.  If you claim one kind of fighter but the logs say you shot down another, the kill is credited.  

@ACG_Woop

Thanks for the post.  At the moment I use a "German" method across the board because it is straight forward.  It is also the only method possible given limited information in the logs.  The logs only give me damaged records for the player, so I will not have any idea who damaged whom outside of the player.  Further, victories have either a single victor or no victor at all - never more than one.  As a result shared or partial victories are not possible and damaged records would be limited to the player.

 

I found out that career mode has a trick to generate damage records for AI planes as well - I'm testing a patch on my career that enables this in PWCG missions.

[PatrickAWlson]

31 minutes ago, Murleen said:

 

I found out that career mode has a trick to generate damage records for AI planes as well - I'm testing a patch on my career that enables this in PWCG missions.

That would be useful.  If it is possible to configure log outputs I wonder what else could be exposed.

[Murleen]

4 hours ago, PatrickAWlson said:

That would be useful.  If it is possible to configure log outputs I wonder what else could be exposed.

 

OK, it's worked pretty well for me in a few different scenarios, so I've pushed the update for review.

[PatrickAWlson]

1 hour ago, Murleen said:

 

OK, it's worked pretty well for me in a few different scenarios, so I've pushed the update for review.

 

Merged both pulls.  They will be available in the next update.

[busdriver]

On 8/20/2018 at 9:16 PM, PatrickAWlson said:

I could.  I know it's not entirely realistic, especially for WWII, but I kind of like the detail.  Not sure what the consensus is.   I could keep the logging the same and add a flag that would obfuscate some of the details on presentation.

 

If it's not too labor intensive, could you make this "fog of war" an option? Having read WWII combat journals, frequently pilots misidentified their victories or vaguely ID'd their victories as the arch type, or number of engines. Several PWCG versions ago I tried deleting the details (pilot and unit assignment) in the mission log/journal entry but knackered a career or two because of my ignorance.

 

Thanks for your work.