will the P-47 have an optional dorsal fin?

[catchthefoxes]

Excuse my ignorance but if we're getting an optional DF loop that I'm guessing would modify the cockpit a bit why can't we get a dorsal fin? we got a spitfire with clipped wings is it possible to get a p47 with a dorsal fin or is it that all p 47 with dorsal fins also had a different engine and dive flaps as in you can't have one without the other.  and I know there was another thread about this but I couldn't find it. I honestly don't know enough about it, but is it possible?

[Legioneod]

8 minutes ago, catchthefoxes said:

Excuse my ignorance but if we're getting an optional DF loop that I'm guessing would modify the cockpit a bit why can't we get a dorsal fin? we got a spitfire with clipped wings is it possible to get a p47 with a dorsal fin or is it that all p 47 with dorsal fins also had a different engine and dive flaps as in you can't have one without the other.  and I know there was another thread about this but I couldn't find it. I honestly don't know enough about it, but is it possible?

Hopefully we will get it, it wasn't standard with the block we are getting but many D-28s were retrofitted with it in the field. There were also multiple versions of the dorsal fin, one type went all the way in a straight line and was flush with the fuselage (IMG 1) and the other was curved at the end (IMG 2)

Personally I hope it is the flush one without the curve at the end, the dorsal fin in IMG 1  just looks so much cleaner.

 

IMG 1

 

IMG 2

Edited August 19, 2018 by Legioneod

[DSR_A-24]

Probably,

but I'm pretty sure we aren't getting dive flaps ?

[Legioneod]

2 minutes ago, DSR_T-888 said:

Probably,

but I'm pretty sure we aren't getting dive flaps ?

Nope, no dive flaps were ever fitted on the D-28, only the D-30 and above ever got them. Dive flaps are one of the things that I dont think could have been fitted in the field, it had to be done at the factory.

 

No worries though, we will still be able to dive at 500+ mph.

Edited August 19, 2018 by Legioneod

[MiloMorai]

500mph at what altitude?

[Legioneod]

6 minutes ago, MiloMorai said:

500mph at what altitude?

Depends. 500mph indicated from 0 - 10k ft, the permissible indicated airspeed drops the higher up you go but it's still around 500mph or more in TAS.

[sevenless]

Wasn´t dorsal fin a field mod on the earlier models?

[PatrickAWlson]

1 hour ago, MiloMorai said:

500mph at what altitude?

 

5000 meters ... wait ... 4000 ... nope ... 3000 ...

[Legioneod]

23 minutes ago, sevenless said:

Wasn´t dorsal fin a field mod on the earlier models?

All bubbletops (D-25 and later) could be field modified with the dorsal fin but it didn't become standard (from the factory) until the D-30 or 40.

[sevenless]

Just now, Legioneod said:

All bubbletops (D-25 and later) could be field modified with the dorsal fin but it didn't become standard (from the factory) until the D-30 or 40.

 

Thanks. Then it would make sense to have it in the game, right?

[Legioneod]

Just now, sevenless said:

 

Thanks. Then it would make sense to have it in the game, right?

Yep but who knows if we'll get it. It'd be a nice addition to the thunderbolt and it would help with yaw instability.

[catchthefoxes]

I really hope we get it! It seems reasonable that it would be a modification.

[migmadmarine]

Given we get the ability to swap from full to clipped wing on the Spitfire, I think a mod like this is pretty reasonable. 

 

[69th_chuter]

I think the bigger question about the dorsal strake is whether there will be any improvement to directional stability with, versus without, it.  The turbulence behind the bubble canopy caused enough of a directional problem to make the strake a practical improvement, although one might very well argue that the larger area prop blades were a factor as well..

[Legioneod]

18 minutes ago, chuter said:

I think the bigger question about the dorsal strake is whether there will be any improvement to directional stability with, versus without, it.  The turbulence behind the bubble canopy caused enough of a directional problem to make the strake a practical improvement, although one might very well argue that the larger area prop blades were a factor as well..

If they model it correctly then it should offer some yaw stability improvement. No real reason why it wont be modeled, they modeled the differences between the clipped vs non clipped spitfire.

[Talon_]

Reasonable mods for the P-47 that saw widespread service include the dorsal fin, the K-14 Computing Gunsight, the British Gyro Gunsight Mark II and the previously seen RF antenna. It would also be nice to get the Hamilton Standard Hydromatic Propeller which will prevent RPM overspeed, however I feel that this is unlikely.

 

Armament presets should include 6 or 8 guns with minimum 200 and maximum 400 rounds per gun.

 

Rarer mods that are not without precedent given the Laggs and Mc202s we have include interesting options like these... 

 

 

Edited August 20, 2018 by Talon_

[Gambit21]

Just gimme the Jug.

[Legioneod]

20 minutes ago, Talon_ said:

Reasonable mods for the P-47 that saw widespread service include the dorsal fin, the K-14 Computing Gunsight, the British Gyro Gunsight Mark II and the previously seen RF antenna. It would also be nice to get the Hamilton Standard Hydromatic Propeller which will prevent RPM overspeed, however I feel that this is unlikely.

 

Armament presets should include 6 or 8 guns with minimum 200 and maximum 400 rounds per gun.

 

Rarer mods that are not without precedent given the Laggs and Mc202s we have include interesting options like these... 

 

Dorsal Fin, K-14, GGS, DF Loop, and a gun loadout of 400 rounds per gun all make sense for the P-47 we are getting, but the cannons and the removal of 2 guns never happened on the D-28.

 

The Hamilton prop wasn't used on the D-28 either so I doubt we will see it.

 

The cannons were only ever tested once as far as I'm aware, and the 6 gun P-47 was only really common with the P-47M

Edited August 20, 2018 by Legioneod

[catchthefoxes]

GIMMEE!! With a dorsal fin if they’re in stock!!?

[=362nd_FS=RoflSeal]

D-27 has Hamilton Hydromatic Prop

D-28 has Curtiss Electric prop 

(This naming conventions also applies to D-22/23, and D-25/26)

P-47 could get Hamilton prop as a mod to make it a P-47D-27 just how other aircraft get mods to turn it into a different designation (e.g. La-5 to La-5F, Spitfire LF Mk IX to HF Mk IX and FW-190A-5 to A-5/U17(aka F-3) and FW-190A-8 to F-8)

 

Performance between the 2 props were equal in climb, in level speeds Hamilton Standard was better by 5-8mph

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/p-47/P-47D_43-75035_Eng-47-1714-A.pdf

 

Interestingly, P-47D-30 and D-40 are seen with both props attached on, presumably at this point the USAAF saw no reason in distinguish for some reason

Edited August 20, 2018 by RoflSeal

[40plus]

Sorry for my ignorance but I'm honestly having trouble seeing what people are calling a "Dorsal fin" in the included pictures. Educate a newbie, what is it and what is it's intended purpose?

[Talon_]

45 minutes ago, Legioneod said:

removal of 2 guns never happened on the D-28.

 

As early as the P-47D-10 guns were variable. 

 

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/p-47/P-47D-10_43-75035_Eng-47-1652-A_Addendum1.pdf

 

Also up to 425 rounds per gun as per the manual

 

 

 

 

 

 

24 minutes ago, pfrances said:

Sorry for my ignorance but I'm honestly having trouble seeing what people are calling a "Dorsal fin" in the included pictures. Educate a newbie, what is it and what is it's intended purpose?

 

 

Look ahead of the vertical stabiliser

 

No dorsal fin:

 

 

 

 

Fin

 

 

 

EDIT: Alternate "N-series" fin also found its way onto D-series as retrofit, though rare

 

Edited August 20, 2018 by Talon_

[Legioneod]

43 minutes ago, Talon_ said:

 

As early as the P-47D-10 guns were variable. 

 

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/p-47/P-47D-10_43-75035_Eng-47-1652-A_Addendum1.pdf

 

Also up to 425 rounds per gun as per the manual

 

 

Interesting, I knew it was common to remove 2 guns with the P-47M but it was rare to see 6 guns on earlier P-47s. As far as the round count goes they should have multiple options, up to 425 per gun.

 

EDIT: @pfrances

The dorsal fin as shown above is to help with yaw instability, when the P-47 received the bubbletop it encountered yaw instability due to the fact that a large chuck of the fuselage was no longer there.

 

The P-51 also had trouble with yaw instability and also received a dorsal fin, though both the P-51D and P-51B/C Razorbacks needed dorsal fins, the P-47 only needed it for the bubble tops.

 

 

Edited August 20, 2018 by Legioneod

[40plus]

Thanks for the explanation guys. It makes sense now.

[TWC_Ace]

2 hours ago, Gambit21 said:

Just gimme the Jug.

 

Edited August 20, 2018 by blackram

[Gambit21]

"Take a picture for your girlfriend back home with you next to a Mustang - come home to her in a Jug"

 

 

[Bremspropeller]

2 hours ago, Legioneod said:

The P-51 also had trouble with yaw instability and also received a dorsal fin, though both the P-51D and P-51B/C Razorbacks needed dorsal fins, the P-47 only needed it for the bubble tops.

The P-51B/C didn't *need* the dorsal fairing. Many had them retrofit at the front, though, as it (of course) improved yaw-stability and thus safety.

The P-51D/K was more critical due to the loss of fuselage-area behind the CoG thanks to the bubble-canopy and the lower-cut aft fuselage.

 

The instability was most notably an issue with the rear 85gal tank filled, as it moved the CoG very close to the aft limit and made the aircraft squirrely.

The original airframe wasn't designed with the aft tank and thus, with the stability margin taken away and the fuselage cut down, the aircraft became marginal with a full aft tank.

 

Instead of cannons, I'd rather like to have the small frag bomblets in all of their interesting jury-rigged variations.

Oh, and bazookas.

[Pierre64]

[LukeFF]

11 hours ago, Talon_ said:

Rarer mods that are not without precedent given the Laggs and Mc202s we have include interesting options like these... 

 

Those mods were included in the game back when the game's creative vision was different and - more importantly - had the awful "grind to unlock" campaign system. If those planes were being added today, I've a feeling some of those mods would never see the light of day.

Edited August 21, 2018 by LukeFF

[=RvE=Windmills]

 

 

 

Seems like these clusters existed in a lot of variations.

[LukeFF]

P-47 pilots sure knew how to have fun.

[-TBC-AeroAce]

Ow I see what people are taking about now. I would call it more of a fillet than a fin but ok.

Edited August 21, 2018 by AeroAce

[69th_chuter]

My OCD is killing me here ... during the war ONLY the P-47 was known as the Razorback.  There were no razorback versions of anything else until I was a kid and all us kids grew up calling all non-bubble anythings razorbacks.  But, I know very well what people mean when they say P-51 Mustang razorback so I can let it go -----> just so long as I know everyone is aware it's not historically correct. 

 

PS - Please ignore this post.

[Legioneod]

17 minutes ago, chuter said:

My OCD is killing me here ... during the war ONLY the P-47 was known as the Razorback.  There were no razorback versions of anything else until I was a kid and all us kids grew up calling all non-bubble anythings razorbacks.  But, I know very well what people mean when they say P-51 Mustang razorback so I can let it go -----> just so long as I know everyone is aware it's not historically correct. 

 

PS - Please ignore this post.

I know you said ignore the post but it's still technically a razorback. Anything without a bubbletop could be referred to as a razorback.

 

However, in order to appease your OCD I will henceforth refer to them as humpbacks. The P-51 Humpback is by far the most interesting of the P-51 variants, as well as the Spitfire humpbacks.

Edited August 23, 2018 by Legioneod

[Rjel]

Wasn't Razorback in relation to the rather sharp spine atop the P-47? The P-51 was much more curved and rounded. Until the bubble canopy was introduced, I think they were just "airplanes". Might be wrong. 

[Legioneod]

7 minutes ago, Rjel said:

Wasn't Razorback in relation to the rather sharp spine atop the P-47? The P-51 was much more curved and rounded. Until the bubble canopy was introduced, I think they were just "airplanes". Might be wrong. 

Yep, I do believe this was the reason.

[Gambit21]

Yeah I’ve never heard or read “P-51 razorback” in my life.

[Poochnboo]

Yeah, Gambit. I think calling the early models Mustangs "razorbacks" is a gamer/flight simmer thing. Never heard a Mustang pilot call it that. I also hate, "Stang." Another gamer term that real pilots never used. 

Oh, and I also don't understand why the dorsal fin, or fin strake, is so important to some people. I'm just glad we're getting a Thunderbolt. 

[MiloMorai]

Poochnboo, you didn't mention Runstang.? That is one to hate.

[Bremspropeller]

29 minutes ago, Poochnboo said:

Yeah, Gambit. I think calling the early models Mustangs "razorbacks" is a gamer/flight simmer thing. Never heard a Mustang pilot call it that. I also hate, "Stang." Another gamer term that real pilots never used. 

Oh, and I also don't understand why the dorsal fin, or fin strake, is so important to some people. I'm just glad we're getting a Thunderbolt. 

 

I think they're getting the improvements wrong. Those fins are mostly about improving stability in the pattern (when slow), not necessarily during combat (when fast).

There are some benefits when flying high (low IAS), but it's mostly an issue that isn't really felt in a combat sim.

 

Don't wanna have a tired leg after an 8h flight? The strake might be your friend.

Add some additional yaw stability on a dogfight server? The result might be slightly disappointing.

 

Kind of like the aileron trim-tab on the K-4.

There, I said the magic code-word!

150 octan fuel vs C3 injection in 3...2...1...