FW190 D9 difference between early and late model

[LukeFF]

4 hours ago, novicebutdeadly said:

Has there been any talk from the dev's about this??

 

See the topics where Jason replied to questions on Reddit.

51 minutes ago, AeroAce said:

It is going to feel odd having a motorcannon on a 190.

 

It doesn't. 

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

12 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

 

See the topics where Jason replied to questions on Reddit.

 

 

Link Please

[LukeFF]

1 minute ago, II/JG17_HerrMurf said:

Link Please

 

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1uXBkq7U2MmcEwvNLkB2MkKNLkcAMl0em5Arq4Zn68bA/edit

 

 

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

TY

[Operatsiya_Ivy]

2 hours ago, Talon_ said:

 

I would like to fly the plane as it flew in reality. This is a simulator after all.

 

There are accounts of the 150 grade fuel in Spitfires by mid January - it was just a transition period and by mid February everyone had it.

 

Spitfires were flying on +25lbs of boost for between 6-10 weeks of our 26 week campaign, depending on location - so between 45-25% of the campaign. Not just a few days.

 

It's also an easy modification to code as it only involves modifying the boost mapping and full throttle height of an existing engine. Easier than adding the very different Merlin 70.

 

I said it to you before somewhere else.

 

If you want to change something, write a well written and documented report on it. If you have the sources etc. i am sure the devs will consider it. Constant moaning about it in topics that have nothing or little to do with it won't help your cause.

[FTC_DerSheriff]

1 hour ago, AeroAce said:

It is going to feel odd having a motorcannon on a 190.

Yup like Luke said the D-9 had no cannon firing throught the hub. Two 20mm in the wingroots and two 13mm on the cowling.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

No motorcanone until we get late war experimental types.................and that is a long ways off, if ever, at this point.

[-TBC-AeroAce]

 

26 minutes ago, DerSheriff said:

Yup like Luke said the D-9 had no cannon firing throught the hub. Two 20mm in the wingroots and two 13mm on the cowling.

 

Hmm I thought I read that it did. BAD WIKI!!! My bad that is the D12-13

Edited August 14, 2018 by AeroAce

[Talon_]

28 minutes ago, Operatsiya_Ivy said:

 

I said it to you before somewhere else.

 

If you want to change something, write a well written and documented report on it. If you have the sources etc. i am sure the devs will consider it. Constant moaning about it in topics that have nothing or little to do with it won't help your cause.

 

This topic mentioned the fuel and engine setting differences in the Dora so I brought up the Spitfire by way of example as it is a direct equivalent. I PM'd my thoroughly conclusive evidence to @Han however he's not read it yet.

[sevenless]

1 hour ago, AeroAce said:

It is going to feel odd having a motorcannon on a 190.

 

Only if 1C decides to give us the D12 and/or D13, but I doubt that, because they were VERY rare birds.

Edited August 14, 2018 by sevenless

[Operatsiya_Ivy]

24 minutes ago, Talon_ said:

 

I PM'd my thoroughly conclusive evidence to @Han however he's not read it yet.

 

Why not make it public so others can validate and contribute to it?

Edited August 14, 2018 by Operatsiya_Ivy

[Talon_]

18 minutes ago, Operatsiya_Ivy said:

 

Why not make it public so others can validate and contribute to it?

 

It's all been public at various points throughout my posting history.

 

Edit: on second thought a couple of the museum's docs I'm not at liberty to publish publicly.

Edited August 14, 2018 by Talon_

[69TD_Hajo_Garlic]

Did most Dora's have mw50 injection?  I thought the first 100 or so delivered did not but the rest received it and some of the early planes received it later.  In the old Il2 46 I thought that was the difference between the 44 and 45 models.  

[Talon_]

19 minutes ago, 69TD_Joeasyrida said:

Did most Dora's have mw50 injection?  I thought the first 100 or so delivered did not but the rest received it and some of the early planes received it later.  In the old Il2 46 I thought that was the difference between the 44 and 45 models.  

 

By December 1944 about 60 models had it and were right on the edge of entering service. The vast majority did not and could make 1.9ata.

 

All the other planes we have so far are running on "early campaign" engine settings, so likely 1.9ata for the Fw190 too.

[sevenless]

18 minutes ago, 69TD_Joeasyrida said:

Did most Dora's have mw50 injection?  I thought the first 100 or so delivered did not but the rest received it and some of the early planes received it later.  In the old Il2 46 I thought that was the difference between the 44 and 45 models.  

 

All planes produced from December onwards had MW50 injection by default.

[LeLv76_Erkki]

What kind of modifications do you think can be expected - MW50, possibly higher manifold pressure ratio, possibly bubble canopy, what else?

[LukeFF]

12 minutes ago, LeLv76_Erkki said:

What kind of modifications do you think can be expected - MW50, possibly higher manifold pressure ratio, possibly bubble canopy, what else?

 

Most likely:

• Various bomb loadouts
• 21 cm BR rockets

Less likely, but still possible:

• R4M rockets

[303_Bies]

EZ42 gyro gunsight has been confirmed by the devs.

[LukeFF]

Just now, bies said:

EZ42 gyro gunsight has been confirmed by the devs.

 

Ah yes, forgot that one!

[sevenless]

41 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

 

Most likely:

• 21 cm BR rockets 

Less likely, but still possible:

• R4M rockets

 

Never saw or read about D9s with 21cm rockets. R4Ms on the other hand were used:

 

 

 

 

Edited August 14, 2018 by sevenless

[1./KG4_ArthurMimo]

6 hours ago, Voidhunger said:

How much good/bad turning radius dora had. In comparison to A8?

 

I can't answer this question specifically. 

 

However, when Eagle Dynamics build their Dora, they conducted extensive demonstrations / interviews with a pilot who flew both the A and the D series. See here for footage.

 

While you have to take the interview with the usual grain of salt (1. it's an elder 2. he's reporting events from 70 years ago 3. his memory of the facts will be biased by his personal beliefs 4. he can only report what he personally witnessed 5. etc. etc.),  his gist was that the A8 felt like a pig in comparison to the D9. Supposedly, with a D9 you could fly very tight circles over the airstrip, which they didn't do with the earlier models. That came in addition to all the other performance benefits of the D9. So while the plane may or may not have been technically nimbler than its predecessors, the pilots apparently had much more confidence in its maneuverability and other performance aspects.

 

 

 

I'm very much looking forward to this plane being in the game. Regardless of its actual performance I'm committed to learning it simply because imo it's the most dashing looking plane from the entire period (BF109G second, Spitfires third, P39 fourth).

Edited August 14, 2018 by 1./KG4_ArthurMimo

[sevenless]

2 hours ago, Talon_ said:

 

This topic mentioned the fuel and engine setting differences in the Dora so I brought up the Spitfire by way of example as it is a direct equivalent. I PM'd my thoroughly conclusive evidence to @Han however he's not read it yet.

 

Not having it now with the Spitfire IX doesn´t mean it won´t be in once BoPl will be released. There is still a long way to go until final release. Same applies for C3 usage for german planes. We all know it was used, so it is unlikely they ignore this. 

[303_Bies]

20 minutes ago, 69TD_Joeasyrida said:

Etc500 maybe?

D9 used newer, smaller low drag ETC 504.

Edited August 14, 2018 by bies

[Operatsiya_Ivy]

1 hour ago, Talon_ said:

 

It's all been public at various points throughout my posting history.

 

Edit: on second thought a couple of the museum's docs I'm not at liberty to publish publicly.

 

The purpose of creating a thread about an Issue is not only to provide information but also to create a place to discuss, validate and refer to it.

 

We have some very knowledgeable people in this community. I am sure that they will add a lot to the Issue at hand.

[MiloMorai]

What is an ETC500? Is it an early version of the ETC501?

[69TD_Hajo_Garlic]

21 minutes ago, MiloMorai said:

What is an ETC500? Is it an early version of the ETC501?

A mistake on my part, deleted my comment not to further confuse others.  Bies said above they got the newer etc 504

[LukeFF]

59 minutes ago, sevenless said:

Never saw or read about D9s with 21cm rockets.

 

They're discussed in one of the manuals.

 

EDIT:

 

Edited August 14, 2018 by LukeFF

[sevenless]

5 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

 

They're discussed in one of the manuals.

 

Ahh I see. Thanks for the note.

Edited August 14, 2018 by sevenless

[MiloMorai]

Manuals have all kinds of stuff in them. That doesn't mean they were actually used operationally.

[sevenless]

10 minutes ago, MiloMorai said:

Manuals have all kinds of stuff in them. That doesn't mean they were actually used operationally.

 

That´s correct, but they give a valid confirmation that they could be used. If they actually were used was the decision of the unit leader and the actual supply situation of the unit. 

[Bremspropeller]

17 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

They're discussed in one of the manuals.

 

Yes, but they were never used, so it's an academic loadout at best.

The R4M rockets are much more sensible, as they were not only used/ carried operationally, they were also standard equipment in the late-late stages of the war.

On any Fw 190 version (which basicly translates into Doras at this point in the war*).

 

I'd have to work through the references to come up with a more specific source for the latter.

 

____

* Which is interesting as there were lots of projected Antons and Friedrichs out there, but it seems that at some point all the effort was concentrated in getting the Dora to be the standard 190 (no matter if fighter or Schlachtflieger) and use the D-12 and D-13 (and the DB 603 powered D-14 and D-15 wich were supposed to start production in May 45) as stopgap until the Ta 152C was going to show up in numbers.

[sevenless]

10 minutes ago, Bremspropeller said:

___

* Which is interesting as there were lots of projected Antons and Friedrichs out there, but it seems that at some point all the effort was concentrated in getting the Dora to be the standard 190 (no matter if fighter or Schlachtflieger) and use the D-12 and D-13 (and the DB 603 powered D-14 and D-15 wich were supposed to start production in May 45) as stopgap until the Ta 152C was going to show up in numbers.

 

Yeah, that was their BIG PLAN. Fortunately 7th May in Reims and 8th May in Karlshorst came in their way.

[adler_1]

ok so i guess if i see a print from lets say Adlerhorst saying aircraft etc 1944 i will skin  stating it should be placed in the early model folder and same goes for the 1945 models placing it in the late model folder since externally its the same frame and the skin does'nt show any cracks . So far i have done work on  JG2 and JG54 late 44 and early 45 for IL2  .  

[LukeFF]

1 hour ago, dog1 said:

ok so i guess if i see a print from lets say Adlerhorst saying aircraft etc 1944 i will skin  stating it should be placed in the early model folder and same goes for the 1945 models placing it in the late model folder since externally its the same frame and the skin does'nt show any cracks . So far i have done work on  JG2 and JG54 late 44 and early 45 for IL2  .  

 

There isn't going to be separate "early" and "late" model folders, like the original IL2. It's one model that can be changed with various loadouts and modifications.  

6 hours ago, Bremspropeller said:

Yes, but they were never used, so it's an academic loadout at best.

 

We know it wasn't used from the known available records. You know as well as I that a lot of German records were lost at the war's end. 

 

That, and seeing how this was the January 1945 edition of this particular manual, apparently someone somewhere saw the loadout as still being relevant.

[Bucket109]

Early D-9s reached service without the MW 50 installation, but in the meantime Junkers produced a kit to increase manifold pressure (Ladedrucksteigerungs-Rüstsatz) that increased engine output by 150 PS to 1,900 PS, and was effective up to 5,000 m (16,400 ft) altitude. It was fitted immediately to D-9s delivered to the units from September, or retrofitted in the field by TAM. By the end of December, all operational Doras, 183 in total, were converted. From November 1944, a simplified methanol water (MW 50) system (Oldenburg) was fitted, which boosted output to 2,100 PS. By the end of 1944.

Edited August 15, 2018 by bucket_109

[adler_1]

Quote

Quote

Early D-9s reached service without the MW 50 installation, 

 

thats right i tested this morning both versions and the early did'nt have it . the MW50 in IL2 starts with the BF109 10G model followed by the 14 model . However at 6500-7500 mt plus  where the B17's transit  i fail to see any significant boost in speed  once you reach 400 km hr and yet its supposed to reach 650 km hr according to what i read . The 6G model with no MW50 at 5500 mt reaches 400 km easy .

Edited August 15, 2018 by dog1

[EAF19_Marsh]

Quote

mid february... so out of the entire campaign in BoBP they were flying for half a mounth or a bit more.... sounds pretty irrelevant to me considering the MK IX in game is alredy one of, if not THE fighter with the most modifications. clip wings, engine, gyro sight, rockets, bombs. I really don't know why you people can't ever be pleased

 

The mods - rockets (pretty irrelevant), bombs (good but not helpful A2A), Merlin 70 (good for high altitude but not that useful for where much of the combat takes place) - do not really help the Spit being as competitive against the aircraft that it tended to face. We have no XIV, so the RAF will have to take on Spring 1945 a/c with a summer '44 aircraft. Offline that is probably OK if a little frustrating bu on-line ALL German aircraft will be the latest - and incredibly rare - versions (I presume you have experience of this).

 

Look at the relative positions on this:

- Spit 150 / 25lb: huge amount of evidence that this became standard from February for 25 squadrons worth of a/c

- 190 with MW50: maybe 200 but a lot of hearsay / unconfirmed reports of how many, where, with what - not to mention the reality of Luftwaffe in 1945 (which we always ignore)

- 190 with EZ-42: really? Absolute drop in the ocean

- 109 1.908 ata: maybe 20 - 40 but even their most ardent defender admits this started, stopped, suffered  technical wrangle and then maybe started again in March

 

So a '45 edition of the D-9 is totally cool but I have this feeling that the [slightly bizarre] enthusiasm for Luft '46 will trump reality when it comes to the aircraft here. I hate to think what will happen if the US contingent find themselves saddled with Sept '44 aircraft settings versus the penny-packets of German fighters with everything turned up to 11

 

Quote

We know it wasn't used from the known available records. You know as well as I that a lot of German records were lost at the war's end. 

 

With all due respect, that approach is opening a massive can of worms as to 'appropriate' versions / mods / settings

Edited August 15, 2018 by EAF19_Marsh

[303_Bies]

24 minutes ago, dog1 said:

once you reach 400 km hr and yet its supposed to reach 650 km hr according to what i read

What you see on your gauge is a speed in air IAS. Yuor true speed is far greater at this alt.

[LeLv76_Erkki]

9 minutes ago, EAF19_Marsh said:

 

TOffline that is probably OK if a little frustrating bu on-line ALL German aircraft will be the latest - and incredibly rare - versions (I presume you have experience of this).

 

 

And similarly if Spitfire IX is given 25 lbs boost in a modification, people will use nothing but it. Nobody will fly the 18lbs Spitfire IXe that flew from mid 1943 to January 1945. It'd be similar to certain other modifications already in game.

 

It should be an option but its up to mission builders to balance what planes and modifications are available both performance and historical availability wise. Problem for dogfight servers with lazy or biased mission builder, perhaps, but not for campaigns like TAW.

[LukeFF]

13 minutes ago, EAF19_Marsh said:

With all due respect, that approach is opening a massive can of worms as to 'appropriate' versions / mods / settings

 

No, it's not - it's up to the server operators & mission designers to decide what they want and don't want to allow. You know that.