Terrain and tanks

[danielprates]

Gents, 

 

I'll start out with a disclaimer: I do know TC is in early access, and neither this post is intended to complain/nag. So this is meant only as a suggestion, since TC and FC early access is (among other things) intended to let us start fleshing out possible problems or useful ideas and perspectives. 

 

So. I did some extensive  fiddling with TC. I am reaching the conclusion that an important feature of 1.0 version of TC necessarily have to be a 'bumpier', more irregular terrain. Much of the tactical use of tanks in a real battlefield has to do with positioning, in order to take advantage of whatever concealment/protection it can give you. The 'hull down' situation, for instance, where you  conceal most of your tank's hull behind something and leave only your turret free is a very basic and essential tactic. Also,  flanking requires travelling through the longer but tactically logic path, which is almost always a concealed, lover-height path. 

 

The thing is, as beautiful and detailed that BoX's maps are so far, they do their job very well insofar as airplanes go. When you are on the ground fighting with a tank, it becomes obvious they are too ... perfectly flat. You frequently have a totally flat, unending surface extending for kilometers and kilometers. Most obstacles are the 'absolute' type of obstacle:  buildings etc . But the terrain itself offers no possibility for concealment, be it to fight behind, be it to travel shielded from enemy view.  If you can't find a ditch, a slope, a small hill etc., the fighting quickly loses sophistication and becomes this mere aim-and-shoot thing. 

 

If you compare to 'steel fury kharkov' or even the older 'panzer elite' (I mean the good one, not 'panzer elite action'), you see a lot of effort was dispensed towards making terrain very realistic, as far as irregularity goes. You can have a target 1500m away within line of sight, but if you move a bit, you sink slightly in some irregular feature of terrain and you lose the target. We need this. Tank combat simply makes no sense without it. 

 

Again I'll say, I fully know what the maps were originally designed for, also that TC is early access, yadayadayada. My point is,  some solution to this matter should go under consideration as early as possible, since circumventing this terrain limitations could take a while and it makes no sense to release a 'full' game with a dozen tanks perfectly modeled in each side, when all can do is to place them on a flat chessboard and have them simply shoot it out. 

 

Just hoping to contribute with some observations. Cheers.

Edited July 30, 2018 by danielprates

[RedKestrel]

12 minutes ago, danielprates said:

Gents, 

 

I'll start out with a disclaimer: I do know TC is in early access, and neither this post is intended to complain/nag. So this is meant only as a suggestion, since TC and FC early access is (among other things) intended to let us start fleshing out possible problems or useful ideas and perspectives. 

 

So. I did some extensive  fiddling with TC. I am reaching the conclusion that an important feature of 1.0 version of TC necessarily have to be a 'bumpier', more irregular terrain. Much of the tactical use of tanks in a real battlefield has to do with positioning, in order to take advantage of whatever concealment/protection it can give you. The 'hull down' situation, for instance, where you  conceal most of your tank's hull behind something and leave only your turret free is a very basic and essential tactic. Also,  flanking requires travelling through the longer but tactically logic path, which is almost always a concealed, lover-height path. 

 

The thing is, as beautiful and detailed that BoX's maps are so far, they do their job very well insofar as airplanes go. When you are on the ground fighting with a tank, it becomes obvious they are too ... perfectly flat. You frequently have a totally flat, unending surface extending for kilometers and kilometers. Most obstacles are the 'absolute' type of obstacle:  buildings etc . But the terrain itself offers no possibility for concealment, be it to fight behind, be it to travel shielded from enemy view.  If you can't find a ditch, a slope, a small hill etc., the fighting quickly loses sophistication and becomes this mere aim-and-shoot thing. 

 

If you compare to 'steel fury kharkov' or even the older 'panzer elite' (I mean the good one, not 'panzer elite action'), you see a lot of effort was dispensed towards making terrain very realistic, as far as irregularity goes. You can have a target 1500m away within line of sight, but if you move a bit, you sink slightly in some irregular feature of terrain and you lose the target. We need this. Tank combat simply makes no sense without it. 

 

Again I'll say, I fully know what the maps were originally designed for, also that TC is early access, yadayadayada. My point is,  some solution to this matter should go under consideration as early as possible, since circumventing this terrain limitations could take a while and it makes no sense to release a 'full' game with a dozen tanks perfectly modeled in each side, when all can do is to place them on a flat chessboard and have them simply shoot it out. 

 

Just hoping to contribute with some observations. Cheers.

The solution is that TC will come with a dedicated tank map more suited to ground vehicle combat, that can also be used by aircraft. I believe it will be 50 km x 50 km. Its mentioned in the release announcement. They have also mentioned in BoBp dev diaries that they are using some more advanced map tech that makes map building a little easier and quicker, so maybe more maps will follow.

The maps we have for flying are probably too large to do that kind of fine detailing you need for ground combat without hitting performance issues.

[Thad]

6 minutes ago, danielprates said:

Gents, 

 

So. I did some extensive  fiddling with TC. I am reaching the conclusion that an important feature of 1.0 version of TC necessarily have to be a 'bumpier', more irregular terrain. Much of the tactical use of tanks in a real battlefield has to do with positioning, in order to take advantage of whatever concealment/protection it can give you. The 'hull down' situation, for instance, where you  conceal most of your tank's hull behind something and leave only your turret free is a very basic and essential tactic. Also,  flanking requires travelling through the longer but tactically logic path, which is almost always a concealed, lover-height path. 

 

The thing is, as beautiful and detailed that BoX's maps are so far, they do their job very well insofar as airplanes go. When you are on the ground fighting with a tank, it becomes obvious they are too ... perfectly flat. You frequently have a totally flat, unending surface extending for kilometers and kilometers. Most obstacles are the 'absolute' type of obstacle:  buildings etc . But the terrain itself offers no possibility for concealment, be it to fight behind, be it to travel shielded from enemy view.  If you can't find a ditch, a slope, a small hill etc., the fighting quickly loses sophistication and becomes this mere aim-and-shoot thing. 

 

If you compare to 'steel fury kharkov' or even the older 'panzer elite' (I mean the good one, not 'panzer elite action'), you see a lot of effort was dispensed towards making terrain very realistic, as far as irregularity goes. You can have a target 1500m away within line of sight, but if you move a bit, you sink slightly in some irregular feature of terrain and you lose the target. We need this. Tank combat simply makes no sense without it. 

 

Again I'll say, I fully know what the maps were originally designed for, also that TC is early access, yadayadayada. My point is,  some solution to this matter should go under consideration as early as possible, since circumventing this terrain limitations could take a while and it makes no sense to release a 'full' game with a dozen tanks perfectly modeled in each side, when all can do is to place them on a flat chessboard and have them simply shoot it out. 

Salutations,

 

Your observations are very valid and most have been voiced on the forums even prior to the initial release of Tank Crew.

 

Terrain masking is a MUST for any tactical ground combat. Actually, s completely new map will be forthcoming for Tank Crew vehicles to create havoc on. It is expected to have more detailed terrain mapping. Let's hope so.

 

A LOS determination requirement must also apply to the AI as with a live player. Currently the AI can spot through anything and fire through wooded areas. They can't fire through blocking terrain but it doesn't stop them attempting to fire through in blocking terrain... thereby wasting ammunition. Not good.

1 minute ago, RedKestrel said:

The solution is that TC will come with a dedicated tank map more suited to ground vehicle combat, that can also be used by aircraft. I believe it will be 50 km x 50 km. Its mentioned in the release announcement. They have also mentioned in BoBp dev diaries that they are using some more advanced map tech that makes map building a little easier and quicker, so maybe more maps will follow.

The maps we have for flying are probably too large to do that kind of fine detailing you need for ground combat without hitting performance issues.

It is supposed to be 100km x 100km.

[sevenless]

You have a point here, but I bet the devs are aware of it. IIRC the original Panzer Elite back in 1999 by Wings Simulations used 1/25.000 scale topo maps and additional 1 meter height bumps. But let´s wait and see how the Prokhorovka map turns out, which is designed exclusively for tank warfare in mind.

[RedKestrel]

1 minute ago, Thad said:

Salutations,

 

Your observations are very valid and most have been voiced on the forums even prior to the initial release of Tank Crew.

 

Terrain masking is a MUST for any tactical ground combat. Actually, s completely new map will be forthcoming for Tank Crew vehicles to create havoc on. It is expected to have more detailed terrain mapping. Let's hope so.

 

A LOS determination requirement must also apply to the AI as with a live player. Currently the AI can spot through anything and fire through wooded areas. They can't fire through blocking terrain but it doesn't stop them attempting to fire through in blocking terrain... thereby wasting ammunition. Not good.

It is supposed to be 100km x 100km.

Ah, sorry, got that one wrong. Even better.

[danielprates]

Hum. ... I wonder if it is possible to create, in the maps we already have, a 'bumpyness' randomizer which could simple  'warp' a little the already extant maps. Having dedicated maps is good, but it sure is a shame to lose the ones we already have. 

[Thad]

This would be up to the developers. But I expect any such current map changes very unlikely. We aren't losing the current maps, they will just remain as they are, (built for a aircraft simulation, relatively flat except for Kuban).

[Lysus]

I'm "all in" for highly detailed maps for tanks, but the fact of the matter is, people aren't as good at simulation as they give themselves credit for.  Might need some towing capacity.

 

[Thad]

Perhaps... but what an easy target now. ?

[LizLemon]

Can't the terrain editor feature in the mission builder do this?

[Thad]

No, it doesn't permit us to actually modify the terrain elevations on any map. ?

[Yogiflight]

The Stalingrad Map is not that flat either. You only have to start at the tank starting point near Kalach in QMB, and then tell me again, that this map is flat.

But like already mentioned there is a new map coming for TC, built exactly for a tank sim, while the current maps were made for flying and therefore didn't have to be that exactly.

[Dakpilot]

According to DD 195 the Prokhorovka 100 x100km 'Tank map' will have 16 times more detailed landscape  wireframe than current 'aviaton' maps. 

 

Now I don't really know what that actually means ?but it sounds like it is what people are looking for

 

Cheers, Dakpilot 

[-TBC-AeroAce]

Although I agree that the ground cover/texture..... could be much better I disagree with the notion of what we have is totally flat.

 

I have had many a tank battle in box where I am hiding in a dip or over a hill .....

Edited July 30, 2018 by AeroAce

[Thad]

The AI can and does currently spot you, even if behind a hill or a wooded area. They will fire into the hill in a senseless attempt to attack 'through' the ground. They will fire 'through' wooded terrain and kill you. The current maps simply were not really made for ground combat and the AIs aircraft programming doesn't take Line Of Sight into consideration as a result. Hopefully this will change real soon. ?

[GreenSocialist]

Using noise height-maps and mesh displacement with dynamic tessellation you can really get a lot of random lumpy detail onto a surface without too much graphics cost. So it shouldn't be impossible to have more variation in the terrain. Plus level-streaming/loading allows for on the fly landscape loading. You can just keep loading in new terrain into memory as you go.

Can you imagine if IL-2 took advantage of the server tech that Star Citizen or other MMO's use to have multiple servers sharing the burden of an enormous world - to cram a massive amount of detail into a single map?

 Though personally I find the simplified grass is driving me crazy the most, lol. I hope they fill out the tank-game with a rich and varied flora. This after all is what you will be looking at most of the time. Flying planes you constantly have the beautiful view in sight. Tanks need a similar beauty going on in the background. I counted 5 types of grass and flowers in one area in War Thunder, once - you kind of expect IL-2 to look better.

 

[danielprates]

4 hours ago, AeroAce said:

Although I agree that the ground cover/texture..... could be much better I disagree with the notion of what we have is totally flat.

 

Yeeeaaahhhh I didn't say "totally flat",  like,  all through the map. But for large patches, obviously. Too large. Also .....

 

6 hours ago, Yogiflight said:

The Stalingrad Map is not that flat either. You only have to start at the tank starting point near Kalach in QMB, and then tell me again, that this map is flat.

 

.... this place has a hill as a starting point,  but other than that,  pretty featurless,  homogenous, even. You cross the river and there is a slight flat upward inclination towards  the city,  then in arches downward at the city to another huge flat area. Great for a Sergio Leone-type mexican standoff, but little room for sophisticated tank tactics.

 

I am not saying current maps are nothing but a flat surface all over. It would have been crazy to say so, hence I didn't. I think other people got my gist though. We need bumps,  ditches, elevated roads,  craters,  walls and hedges,  bushes.... the works. Current maps are not totally flat (no kidding!) but offer little features,  and for a great part, no features for kilometers.

 

Still,  great to know that a dedicated map will address those issues. Can't wait to see it!

Edited July 31, 2018 by danielprates

[-TBC-AeroAce]

14 minutes ago, danielprates said:

 

Yeeeaaahhhh I didn't say "totally flat",  like,  all through the map. But for large patches, obviously. Too large. Also .....

 

 

 

yeeeah large parts of the world are very flat!

[danielprates]

20 minutes ago, AeroAce said:

 

yeeeah large parts of the world are very flat!

 

Sure,  you are right. Quilometers unending of pure, laboratory-grade smoothness. What was I thinking. I stand corrected!

 

 

Edited July 31, 2018 by danielprates

[-TBC-AeroAce]

All I am saying is that there is plenty of undulation in the current maps!

[Gambit21]

1 minute ago, AeroAce said:

All I am saying is that there is plenty of undulation in the current maps!

 

Yep - quite a bit of elevation change.

[danielprates]

23 minutes ago, AeroAce said:

All I am saying is that there is plenty of undulation in the current maps!

 

There is no questioning that. I am so obviously talking about something else,  though! It doesnt bother you that such elevation changes could be measured with a laser pointer as to how straight they are? No warping, no ripple,  no bump, no nothing?  That is what I was refering to.

 

Oh well. As said above,  we'll have to wait and see the final map. 

[-TBC-AeroAce]

25 minutes ago, danielprates said:

 

There is no questioning that. I am so obviously talking about something else,  though! It doesnt bother you that such elevation changes could be measured with a laser pointer as to how straight they are? No warping, no ripple,  no bump, no nothing?  That is what I was refering to.

 

Oh well. As said above,  we'll have to wait and see the final map. 

 

Well any game or anything really can be broken down to lines in the end. I have played on Tank servers .......... and there is plenty of cover from the landscape.  I had I fight with a Tiger in a T34 last night and to even get a shot on him I followed the contours of the land to get at his side. He blew me to bits the second my turret went over the bluff of the hill! 

 

Look It could be better but there is plenty of elevation changes in the currents maps in certain locations . I think maybe you have not really played that much with the tanks because what you are saying is not really a problem.

 

Peace and love!

[SCG_Slater]

Well,anyone know Steel Beasts? it a very good tank simulator, and the terrain in that one is maybe what you referrer to.

 

https://youtu.be/IF879uWVIBo

[danielprates]

1 hour ago, Slater said:

Well,anyone know Steel Beasts? it a very good tank simulator, and the terrain in that one is maybe what you referrer to.

 

https://youtu.be/IF879uWVIBo

 

Yup thats what i'm talking about! 

 

I get you @AeroAce. Maybe I was spoiled by "steel fury". Man,  those maps really made you feel that you were in a "real" place. Insofar TC's maps kinda make me feel driving around a kind of arcadish simulation of sorts.

 

I sure have high expectations for TC in that respect!

[OrLoK]

It looks like im in the minority by being happy with the current maps level of detail.

 

As long as the Ai have acceptable LoS rules im happy as is.

[Thad]

I have to agree. IF the AI abides by realistic LOS restrictions in detecting and firing on opponents... I can tolerate the current maps terrain. 

[danielprates]

This LoS issue could be one of those "kill two rabbits" situations. If they solve it, they will probably also solve the AI planes seeing you through clouds,  which IIRC is still a thing.

[RedKestrel]

2 hours ago, danielprates said:

This LoS issue could be one of those "kill two rabbits" situations. If they solve it, they will probably also solve the AI planes seeing you through clouds,  which IIRC is still a thing.

I've successfully hidden in clouds from AI before. I think the way the clouds work is sometimes it looks to you like you're in the cloud, but to the observer you are not fully in the cloud. 
 

[danielprates]

1 minute ago, RedKestrel said:

I've successfully hidden in clouds from AI before. I think the way the clouds work is sometimes it looks to you like you're in the cloud, but to the observer you are not fully in the cloud. 
 

 

Oh its like you have to go deeper inside? That would be realistic. But as far as I remember,  AI could see through clouds entirely. Up until recently,  at least.

[LLv34_Flanker]

S!

 

AI has the all seeing eye. Infuriating getting shot down by AA through a forest etc. AI tracking is not impaired by anything. AI has to have LOS rules or tank map will be a WTF fest when AI kills you from a distance without you even knowing it was there.