Tank defense not working?

[SAS_Storebror]

Hi chaps,

 

I've got another question for the Mission Editor experts again.

This time I'm trying to build a tank defense for a home base, in order to protect it from idiots players who think it'd be funny to jump let's say a Tiger tank, drive to the enemy homebase and have some "fun" with spawning player planes.

In my naïvety, I expected that assigning an "attack area" command to the defending tanks with priority "high" on "attack ground targets" would make them hunt incoming enemy (player) tanks.
Actually what they do is this: They stay where they are, and only if you happen to travel within their gun range yourself, they'll start shooting at you.
This means you can find yourself a safe spot where you can attack the base objects while keeping some obstacle between yourself and the defender(s), and vulche as much as you like.

 

Am I missing something?

 

Mike

[Sketch]

I'm not an expert on the matter, but I'm going to go with gut and say,  "This is an Ai problem." It'd be nice to limit players from entering a certain area, and if they do enter that area, have them get destroyed. It's possible to do just that in single player or cooperative, because the playable objects  are selectable in the mission editor, but not dogfight style multiplayer because the playable vehicles are dynamically generated.

 

Now that I'm thinking about it, you could kick a player from the server if they enter an area though. As I understand it, Coconut's and TAW have something similar, where they check to see if your plane matches their database. Once that player (who's plane doesn't match the database) leaves the checkzone, the server sends a server command mcu to kick that player id.

 

You could a server command mcu to kick player id if they enter a checkzone that doesn't match their coalition's side. And if you're nice, you could give them a 10-20 second warning too. "Hey bud! Leave this area or get kicked!" Probably not the best solution, but it should work.

 

Maybe someone else can chime in here, and give you better advice.

Edited July 27, 2018 by [TWB]Sketch
grammar

[LLv34_Temuri]

Kicking is done via rcon, not mcu. You’d also need to send the warnings via private chat, as there’s no way to target those other text messages that are shown on the UI. Also, I don’t think it’s possible to see which player is in certain area by using triggers.

[Juri_JS]

Storebror, what you've mentioned is the main problem facing Tank Crew when it comes to single player missions. Every ground vehicle AI movement needs to be carefully scripted, because the AI doesn't move on it's own. Of course this makes it very difficult for mission builders to achieve a flexible AI behavior that can react to changing situations in a mission. For example at the moment the AI is unable to automatically turn its heavy frontal armor towards the enemy, which is a huge disadvantage for AI tanks.

[[DBS]Tx_Tip]

Wrong tool for the job.

Use 2 to 4 88mm or 85mm artillery pieces set to high unlimited ammo linked to a MCU Attack Area "ground targets" only on high which surrounds the airbase. You can have them pointed towards the probable Tank approach or have them covering 360*. They will shoot through whatever is in their way to destroy approaching Tanks. If Tank approach to base is on uneven terrain raise the Attack Area so they can see above it.

Tip

[Thad]

Salutations,

 

I agree. The AI doesn't really do much thinking on its' own. We mission builders have to be creative to give the illusion that they do react to the changing mission situation. It is very time consuming and requires playtesting over and over to get the 'result' desired.

 

For example. In my current mission (in playtesting), I have simulated sending a lone KV-1 to move to a ambush position with a elevated advantage versus a column of axis tanks. After getting into position the carnage begins. Eventually, if one of the enemy tanks is destroyed a on killed event is assigned to it that, in turn, activates the KV-1s waypoint. When that happens, the KV-1 will begin to move to the WP and start moving back towards town. Engaging along its route. 

 

What we mission builders need are more AI action variables to use. IF, (this happens) THEN (move to this waypoint) etc. 

 

From my point of view, this could and should be done.

[JimTM]

2 hours ago, Juri_JS said:

Storebror, what you've mentioned is the main problem facing Tank Crew when it comes to single player missions. Every ground vehicle AI movement needs to be carefully scripted, because the AI doesn't move on it's own. Of course this makes it very difficult for mission builders to achieve a flexible AI behavior that can react to changing situations in a mission. For example at the moment the AI is unable to automatically turn its heavy frontal armor towards the enemy, which is a huge disadvantage for AI tanks.

 

FYI, limited turning behaviour is available by using the "Vehicle: Set Direction and Stop" option in the Formation command. However, you have to specify the direction to turn in the AY field of the command. See pg. 244 of the editor manual.

 

Wild thought Storebror, but try the cover command (perhaps on Low) rather than the attack area command and see what happens.

Edited July 27, 2018 by JimTM

[Thad]

Thanks JimTM. There is so much that 'can' be done in the ME. It's actually amazing.

 

You need to add such examples in your updated mission building guide. Any time next week would be fine.  ?

Edited July 27, 2018 by Thad

[Sketch]

3 hours ago, Thad said:

Salutations,

 

I agree. The AI doesn't really do much thinking on its' own. We mission builders have to be creative to give the illusion that they do react to the changing mission situation. It is very time consuming and requires playtesting over and over to get the 'result' desired.

 

For example. In my current mission (in playtesting), I have simulated sending a lone KV-1 to move to a ambush position with a elevated advantage versus a column of axis tanks. After getting into position the carnage begins. Eventually, if one of the enemy tanks is destroyed a on killed event is assigned to it that, in turn, activates the KV-1s waypoint. When that happens, the KV-1 will begin to move to the WP and start moving back towards town. Engaging along its route. 

 

What we mission builders need are more AI action variables to use. IF, (this happens) THEN (move to this waypoint) etc. 

 

From my point of view, this could and should be done.

Damn Ai not doing it's own thinking! How dare it! /s

 

Really though, every game engine has it's limitations, and as we get better and better mission's developed we learn how far we can take it and what illusions we can create and which we can not. Hopefully, we can share our findings with each other to help limit the required playtesting to get our desired result.

[JimTM]

12 minutes ago, Thad said:

Thanks JimTM. There is so much that 'can' be done in the ME. It's actually amazing.

 

You need to add such examples in your updated mission building guide. Any time next week would be fine.  ?

 

OK, next week, 2020.  

[Juri_JS]

36 minutes ago, JimTM said:

 

FYI, limited turning behaviour is available by using the "Vehicle: Set Direction and Stop" option in the Formation command. However, you have to specify the direction to turn in the AY field of the command. See pg. 244 of the editor manual.

I know, but that only works when you know the direction the enemy is approaching from beforehand. So it doesn't really work when the AI is fighting a player controlled tank. What's need are a few  AI actions that get performed automatically. For example turning the front towards the enemy or reversing a few meters in the opposite direction when coming under heavy fire. All this could be scripted in a AI vs. AI mission, but not when a human play is involved who doesn't follow a predefined route.

[Thad]

You may be right. But I wonder if tanks can be give area attack assignments. If they can, they can be set to medium or low. Based upon what their setting is, they will engage a closer moving target. Need to experiment. ?

[Gambit21]

You can use triggers to select various routes that you’ve placed on the map etc, that way the tanks react (sort of) to the player. Still comes down to the fact that AI must be scripted. 

[Thad]

Of course it must be scripted. It is artificial intelligence. We need a more robust list of assignments or directives for the AI.

[Gambit21]

19 minutes ago, Thad said:

Of course it must be scripted. It is artificial intelligence. We need a more robust list of assignments or directives for the AI.

 

In contrast to aircraft that make their own decision with regard to maneuvering, vs placing way-points and triggers.

[Thad]

Yea, and we know  how well the AI pilots perform. They can't really compete with a good living pilot. Everyone knows that the real challenge flying air combat is against human pilots. That may never change much in IL2.

 

Regardless, from a mission builders point of view, I'd like to see more AI dictates, assignments or flexibility available for my use.

Edited July 27, 2018 by Thad

[Thad]

I'll try to give some idea of where I am coming from by referring to the basics of Steel Beasts Route settings. IL2 uses simplistic nav points for movement. Better suited of aircraft routes. (as expected)

 

There are six route tactics for units. Assault, Engage, March, Retreat, Scout or Breach.

 

Designated (programmed) Default unit Route Properties.

 

Engage: Formation Wedge, Spacing Normal, Speed: Fast

Assault: Formation Line, Spacing Normal, Speed: Top

March: Formation Column, Spacing Normal, Speed: Fast

Retreat: Formation Line, Spacing Normal, Speed: Reverse then Top

Scout: Formation Wedge, Spacing Normal, Speed: Slow

Breach: Formation Column, Spacing Normal, Speed: Slow

 

When a unit embarks on a route, the unit adopts the route properties.

 

Basic Unit Behavior (vehicles) for route tactics

 

Engage: If enemy in range, stop and find a hull-down position facing the enemy. If in column formation, try to stay on roads.

Assault: Always stay on route. There are exceptions. Minefields ICM artillery field etc. If in column, try to stay on roads.

March: Stay on roads unless under direct fire and enemy is near and flanking. If in column formation, try to stay on roads.

Retreat: Always stay on route. Except ICM artillery field etc. Pop smoke at the beginning of the route if enemy are present. If in column, stay on roads.

Breach: Always stay on route. etc, etc. Obstacle reduction capability will attempt to create a lane through the obstacle along the route. Bridge layer will try to lay a bridge.

Scout: If an enemy is encountered always seek a turret down position facing the enemy. If under attack, retreat back along route (retreating tactic). Look for and expose enemy minefields

             Do NOT try to stay on roads.

 

This is just a basic presentation of the Routes used in Steel Beasts. Of course there is a LOT of programming used for the AI to perform these action during a mission. I have presented it just to show some of what can be done to make AI controlled vehicles viable opponents. I can only hope that the AI of Tank Crew gets to half of SB capabilities. ?

 

 

 

Edited July 28, 2018 by Thad
Addition

[Sketch]

Maybe we could create group files that could possibly do each of those behaviors? 

[Thad]

That may be viable but not as good as having it programmed directly into a route assignment inside the game. ?

[Sketch]

11 minutes ago, Thad said:

That may be viable but not as good as having it programmed directly into a route assignment inside the game. ?

 

I can't disagree with you there, but really we have two choices - complain or do something about it. 

 

So lets complain while making groups.

 

[Gambit21]

28 minutes ago, Thad said:

That may be viable but not as good as having it programmed directly into a route assignment inside the game. ?

 

I’m constantly constructing “not as good as” workarounds. That pretty much describes mission building lol.

[Thad]

You are right about that. ?

[SAS_Storebror]

Sorry for resurrecting this topic, but I'm back at my original issue, which is defending airbases from idiots players who have nothing better in mind than driving across the map for half an hour just to stand in the middle of an enemy airfield and shoot at anything spawning there.

I understand that protecting the airfields with AI tanks doesn't work because AI doesn't do anything on it's own, not even breathing.

I also understand that for this reason, defending with artillery is the key, as pointed out by @[DBS]Tx_Tip:

On 7/27/2018 at 4:59 PM, [DBS]Tx_Tip said:

Wrong tool for the job.

Use 2 to 4 88mm or 85mm artillery pieces set to high unlimited ammo linked to a MCU Attack Area "ground targets" only on high which surrounds the airbase. You can have them pointed towards the probable Tank approach or have them covering 360*. They will shoot through whatever is in their way to destroy approaching Tanks. If Tank approach to base is on uneven terrain raise the Attack Area so they can see above it.

 

So far so good, but what kind of artillery exactly should I use for the job?

I thought I'd start with the russian side and got stuck immediately when trying to defend against Tiger Tanks.

ZiS-2/3 guns (57/76mm), which are in fact anti tank guns, are useless against Tigers (which historically according to Wikipedia is correct).

ML-20 (152mm) has HE shells only -> useless.

M30 (122mm) in real life used HEAT shells for anti tank combat from 1943 onwards, but apparently in IL2 we have HE shells only. They don't do anything against Tigers.

M-42 (45mm): Forget it. Like in real life, no use against Tiger.

53k (45mm): Same. Forget it.

 

So... what gun precisely did you have in mind Tip, or maybe anyone else can shed some light on this?

And while we're at it... I guess the same issue will come up when I'm searching for a german anti tank gun to defend against KV-1 tanks, so the same question goes here: Which artillery can do the job?

 

Mike

[Sketch]

Probably need some testing... And/Or probably need units that can actually pen the KV1 and the Tiger.

[[DBS]Tx_Tip]

4 hours ago, SAS_Storebror said:

Sorry for resurrecting this topic, but I'm back at my original issue, which is defending airbases from idiots players who have nothing better in mind than driving across the map for half an hour just to stand in the middle of an enemy airfield and shoot at anything spawning there.

I understand that protecting the airfields with AI tanks doesn't work because AI doesn't do anything on it's own, not even breathing.

I also understand that for this reason, defending with artillery is the key, as pointed out by @[DBS]Tx_Tip:

 

So far so good, but what kind of artillery exactly should I use for the job?

I thought I'd start with the russian side and got stuck immediately when trying to defend against Tiger Tanks.

ZiS-2/3 guns (57/76mm), which are in fact anti tank guns, are useless against Tigers (which historically according to Wikipedia is correct).

ML-20 (152mm) has HE shells only -> useless.

M30 (122mm) in real life used HEAT shells for anti tank combat from 1943 onwards, but apparently in IL2 we have HE shells only. They don't do anything against Tigers.

M-42 (45mm): Forget it. Like in real life, no use against Tiger.

53k (45mm): Same. Forget it.

 

So... what gun precisely did you have in mind Tip, or maybe anyone else can shed some light on this?

And while we're at it... I guess the same issue will come up when I'm searching for a german anti tank gun to defend against KV-1 tanks, so the same question goes here: Which artillery can do the job?

 

Mike

 

For Axis defense use the 88mm or Flak 37 within Artillery objects in its' historical role of Anti-Tank gun. 

For Russian defense use the 85mm or 52K within the same Artillery objects.

These work very well and additionally lend themselves to good sortie objectives for VVS or Luftwaffe pilots respectively to clear the way for their armor. 

 

For your problem of a Tiger Driver harassing your airfield. I would use the 88mm just because.

Good Luck,

Tip

[SCG_Schneemann]

Exactly, especially if it's just to remove doofuses... 88 isn't necessarily German... set it to Russian to attack Germans... 

[SAS_Storebror]

Alright so the Flak would work as Anti Tank cannon as well?

My question might sound stupid but I've never tried...

 

Mike

[SCG_Schneemann]

It should - it's just a visual placeholder, with gun damage coded in. Set the attack MCU as was suggested to ground targets...

Edited August 13, 2018 by 1./JG54_Schneemann

[SAS_Storebror]

Just wanted to get back to you with a big *thank you* !

The proposal works a treat.

52K AA guns kill the Tiger with a single shot.

What a blast!

 

Thanks so much.

Mike

[Sketch]

Nice! I learned something too. Mike can you post the group you have setup? It'd be good to share how we're limiting playable tanks from certain areas with artillery.

[SAS_Storebror]

I'll check how things work online for a week, and then I'll post a group where the Anti-Tank-Flak, it's "repair" logic and the activator/deactivator are in.

 

Mike

[[DBS]Tx_Tip]

On ‎8‎/‎15‎/‎2018 at 7:41 AM, SAS_Storebror said:

Just wanted to get back to you with a big *thank you* !

The proposal works a treat.

52K AA guns kill the Tiger with a single shot.

What a blast!

 

Thanks so much.

Mike

Your very welcome. As I mentioned above these lend themselves to good sortie objectives for VVS or Luftwaffe pilots respectively to clear the way for their armor. 

Good luck with your Mission Designing.

 

[SAS_Storebror]

Groups have been released here:

https://www.sas1946.com/main/index.php/topic,59350.0.html

 

Mike