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HagarTheHorrible

FC early access in VR

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Anyone tried FC aircraft in VR yet ?  

 

 I'm on holiday until the end of the week so can't play.  I'm interested to know what, if any, difference it makes to the feeling of flying, fighting and shooting  in these string bags.

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Amazing. Not much more to say.

 

Setup:

Stalingrad autum

Groupfight over the city 6 vs 6

2km aside at 900m

Heavy clouds 1000m

 

Best WW1 feeling!

 

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When this game is complete or nearly, I hope by that time the Samsung Odyssey VR will be solt in the Eurozone.

 

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it's great.

 

really great.

 

buggy for me if I record a trk other than that it's superb.

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Posted (edited)

We expected flying ww1 planes in VR to be amazing and it is.

Mostly been flying the spad, and your view is quite limited by the upper wing so you prop yourself up to try and see above it. Grinned the first time when i realised what i was doing. Likewise lining up a shot using the crosshairs makes totally sense.

The Spad flies really docile, while the DR1 is a bit of a handfull.

Cant comment on flight and damage modelling compared to ROF as its been 5 years since i last played it.

I think they need to tone down the tracer fire, its clearly the same as for the ww2 birds but at ww1 speeds and distances it a bit too overwhelming. Same goes for the AI that are shooting (and hitting) at distances that dont quite makes sense.

All in all ww1 planes seems to a really nice match for VR, cant wait for some more content.

 

Edited by FFS_Veiland
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53 minutes ago, FFS_Veiland said:

We expected flying ww1 planes in VR to be amazing and it is.

Mostly been flying the spad, and your view is quite limited by the upper wing so you prop yourself up to try and see above it. Grinned the first time when i realised what i was doing. Likewise lining up a shot using the crosshairs makes totally sense.

The Spad flies really docile, while the DR1 is a bit of a handfull.

Cant comment on flight and damage modelling compared to ROF as its been 5 years since i last played it.

I think they need to tone down the tracer fire, its clearly the same as for the ww2 birds but at ww1 speeds and distances it a bit too overwhelming. Same goes for the AI that are shooting (and hitting) at distances that dont quite makes sense.

All in all ww1 planes seems to a really nice match for VR, cant wait for some more content.

 

 

I'm sure they will gradually tweak it as time goes on rather than just a simple port of existing content and additional map,. at the very least, if FC is reasonably popular, then we might half expect some additional development work to enhance the experience.

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Tried both the Spad and DR1 in VR today and what can I say.......but wow

 

It was as good as I had hoped and expected.

 

I think a lot of things have been shared from the WW2 stuff for now though.

Not just the maps and AA guns but the tracers and hit flashes too.

 

 

I find it is a lot easier to see where the bullets are landing in FC compared to RoF. Whether that is because of it being in 3D or because of the hit flashes, I’m not sure.

 

I’m very much Looking forward to more WW1 content being added, especially the SE5

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Yep, my initial impressions for VR are that it's exactly what I expected, which is awesome. Really nothing like an open pit bird in VR. The two planes fly exactly as I remember from RoF 4-5 years ago. That isn't a bad thing. Graphics are certainly improved, the textures are generally very good and I think the 3d models were improved too. They aren't DCS level of stupid high polygon counts but are fairly clean by modern standards. Performance seems roughly the same as well with my system. So mostly a locked 90 fps at high-ish settings and 1.3 PD.

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So, just on the FC side, is VR worth it for someone who already owns a big 4K monitor?   I’ve never tried it but keep imagining being disappointed because of the screen door effect and such. Is it more immersive than a really good monitor?

 

Thanks, 

 

Ceowulf<><

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I wouldn't fly without VR, but given that FC won't be fully out for some time, the development cycle of VR hardware (new headsets may be in the offing next year) and the fact that you have managed thus far with a 4K monitor, I would stick with what you have for the time being unless you can pick up a really good bargin.

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Posted (edited)

In terms of resolution, most VR headsets are a downgrade from even a 1080p screen. The resolution is good enough not to stand in the way of flying and fighting, but it will be painful coming from a 4k monitor. For immersion, there is no comparison between even the best monitors + TIR5 and any quality VR headset. After you get accustomed to the lower resolution, going from VR back to a monitor is like going from a  joystick to arrow keys for flying. It doesn't matter how nice the keyboard is or how crappy the joystick is, there is no going back once you spend some time with it.

 

And immersion is only one aspect, equally important is object size. Stuff is full sized in VR with a 110 degree FoV. To get that on a monitor, you'd need it to run wall to wall or something crazy. A second big advantage is the 1 to 1 head tracking. All the major headsets have flawless tracking as well, no glitching or spazzing like TIR5 does when moving your head around a lot. All of these secondary aspects combined tend to give far greater situational awareness despite a big drop in resolution compared to high end monitors.

 

With that said, it makes little sense to buy a VR headset for just FC. We're likely to have a new generation of headsets by the time it's finished. If you also play BoX, DCS or other flight sims (or racing games), then yeah, it's worth it if you have the extra cash. At this point I recommend the Samsung Odyssey. Though the Rift is the better overall package (mainly thanks to the controllers), the Odyssey does get a pretty big bump in resolution. Subjectively, it's about like a 1080p monitor while the Rift is more like 720p I suppose. But that type of comparison can be misleading due the FoV and object size differences mentioned above.

 

Edited by BeastyBaiter
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I won't be using VR, however I did get to try one out, maybe a year ago..

And for anyone thinking about it I wouldn't worry too much about resolution numbers. I think it was 480px I was looking at back then but it seemed much better than that.

But if it's only for FC at this stage, like Beasty said it's maybe better hanging off pending the next gen of headsets.

 

S!

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Beasty, thanks for the review.  If I was in the market for a VR set, Odyssey is your recommendation?  Anyone else have any thoughts?

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Yeah, thanks Beasty.   

 

You say “stuff is full sized.”   That’s good to hear.  My one VR test was someone’s Skyrim and the characters seemed little.  (It was weird...   pixels and small objects.  Hard to be immersed.   Although a dragon attacked me so that was new.)

 

Ceowulf<><

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I have Oculus It's really cool sitting in my SPAD cockpit. ;)

 

The problem I have with VR is it puts you at a big disadvantage when flying online. It really hurts SA and seeing targets at distance. The pilot flying with TIR and a large monitor is going to be able to set up the fight, stalk and kill better. In a SPAD SA is what keeps you alive. Some guys can't go back from VR, but I like to win too much I guess. If everyone one was flying VR it would even out. 

 

S!

Hunter

 

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Oh.  So what to do with that?  Keep fluent in both?

 

Ceowulf<>>

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Just use VR. As I said previously, I view VR as a competitive advantage in MP due to higher SA. Not everyone agrees with that but a lot of it does depend on the graphics settings. And yes, I would recommend the Odyssey over the Rift for flight sims currently. If you're also playing shooters, then the case for the Rift gets a lot stronger due to the controllers. But if all we're considering is the headset itself, then the Odyssey is currently the best on the market.

 

As for the object sizes, it tends to depend on the game. I have Skyrim VR and all the NPC's are 7ft (2.1m) tall. But that game was never made for VR, it was ported 7 years after release. It may also depend on the particular headset. The Rift, Vive (both models) and Samsung Odyssey have an IPD adjustment (distance between eyes) while the other WMR headsets and maybe the PSVR do not. IPD is what determines depth perception and sense of scale. If that's off, things can appear tiny or super huge. In Skyrim VR's case with my Rift, NPC's are actually too tall and it has nothing to do with IPD. I'm over 6ft and am accustomed to seeing the tops of people's heads when looking ahead. In Skyrim VR, I'm looking at their chins or lower. It does have a height adjustment in game, but it's reading my height correctly by default. Bethesda just made everyone super tall is all. BoX and DCS do not have this problem, everything feels right with the Rift.

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Posted (edited)

Hunter, I have to disagree a bit on the VR aspect. Not saying you are all wrong. I think it just takes some time to get used the VR and it is quite a bit more work looking all around in VR since it is 1:1 head movement.  I've not flown using a monitor for a full year. During that time, I quite often spot contacts before the rest of my flight who use TrackIR and monitor. They do ID sooner than I do most times but not all. This month I've happened to have mostly flown alone on WOL due to various reasons and have one of my best lone wolf kill/death ratios . VR is good enough for MP. Being alone I've had to be more disciplined stalking stuff most of the time this month. My deaths mainly came from my fault - getting too greedy and making mistakes - more of getting fixated forgetting to look ALL around rather than simply not seeing something. Quite a few of my kills this month were going down before they knew I was there. 

 

I'm looking forward to hunting in the Spad and will do so in VR. I flew some QM with it and after a bit of getting used to it, I was happy with my setting up and going thru the passes while BNZ AI DR1s in the furball I set up. Not human pilots but was encouraging. Found my self stretching some to look over the wing a bit while rolling in then ducking a bit see better under wing after wing was starting to block the view then back to more of normal look at sight the last bit before firing.

 

I flew the DR1 some last night but not a lot. I was getting better with it by the time I quit and went on to blast some stuff with tanks.

 

Dont give up on the VR yet for FC. As you saw the view in it is amazing. 

 

Edited by HansBlitz

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Posted (edited)
52 minutes ago, HansBlitz said:

Hunter, I have to disagree a bit on the VR aspect. Not saying you are all wrong. I think it just takes some time to get used the VR and it is quite a bit more work looking all around in VR since it is 1:1 head movement.  I've not flown using a monitor for a full year. During that time, I quite often spot contacts before the rest of my flight who use TrackIR and monitor. They do ID sooner than I do most times but not all. This month I've happened to have mostly flown alone on WOL due to various reasons and have one of my best lone wolf kill/death ratios . VR is good enough for MP. Being alone I've had to be more disciplined stalking stuff most of the time this month. My deaths mainly came from my fault - getting too greedy and making mistakes - more of getting fixated forgetting to look ALL around rather than simply not seeing something. Quite a few of my kills this month were going down before they knew I was there. 

 

I'm looking forward to hunting in the Spad and will do so in VR. I flew some QM with it and after a bit of getting used to it, I was happy with my setting up and going thru the passes while BNZ AI DR1s in the furball I set up. Not human pilots but was encouraging. Found my self stretching some to look over the wing a bit while rolling in then ducking a bit see better under wing after wing was starting to block the view then back to more of normal look at sight the last bit before firing.

 

I flew the DR1 some last night but not a lot. I was getting better with it by the time I quit and went on to blast some stuff with tanks.

 

Dont give up on the VR yet for FC. As you saw the view in it is amazing. 

 

Thanks for the encouragement Hans, I'll give it some more time for sure. I probably need to get my settings right for one thing. It's hard for me to go fromt he clarity of my 4k Monitor to the blur of the low res VR.

 

S!

Hunter

 

P.S. My neck is sore. ;)

Edited by US103_Hunter

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This discussion is very interesting to me.  

 

So, I love and consciously enjoy how the planes, weather, and terrain look.  Sometimes I fly Il2 just to relax and enjoy the scenery. That’s 4K x 40”.  Will I miss that beauty from VR due to low res?   

 

Thanks

Ceowulf<><  

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Posted (edited)

I came to VR from using a 1080 res monitor and there is a difference from even that as far as how crisp things are. I'm happy with it though. I imagine it would be an even bigger difference from your 4K, so can't say how you would feel about it. I just have enjoyed the being there aspect of it so much that I have not flown any flight sim on a monitor since getting my Rift. I don't so much now but nosing over into dive at first did even get that feeling in my stomach of going over a hill fast in a car. Amazing a person's body can react like that from just visual input. Sinking toward the runway landing still is the closest experience/feel to actually landing from back when my parents flew - being in their Thorp T18.

 

I do fly some just for the scenery. Can't accurately describe what it is like to be following a river right over the water, trying to keep below tree tops in the turns and bends while in VR - just that I enjoy it hell of a lot The mountains on the Kuban map are a blast to just buzz through as well.

Edited by HansBlitz
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Hey,

 

What vr sets are u guys using? I'm hoping by the time FC fully comes out vr sets would have become alot more affordable.

 

S!

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Flying Circus is a blast in VR. I played RoF from the very beginning and now I have FC in VR, Jason and the team made my dream a reality (virtual).

I used a 4K G-sync monitor before I moved to VR. In my opinion, VR greatly enhance the overall flying experience. It is like watching a war movie in the TV or being actually in that war.

Resolution is lower? absolutely yes, but I sacrifice that by a better immersion. Personally I think that the Rift (with some SS) offers a resolution similar to 1080p. I took some samples from Rift, 1080p and 4K in this thread:

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/32186-identification-in-vr-supersampling-and-aa-influence-sample-images/

 

If money is not an issue I would definitely try it. WMR prices are really attractive those days. If you can spend more you can go to the Rift or Odyssey. I can not talk about the Odyssey, but I bought the VivePro and it was worse than the Rift. I sold it afterwards and I keep my Rift. Now waiting for the new Pimax.

Regarding VR devices, this is a poll of install base:

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/27278-about-vr-and-vr-devices-used/

 

But I know a few people who came to VR (with Rift) from 4K monitors and they come back to 4K monitors. Some of them ar in this poll:

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/33300-why-you-are-still-not-in-vr/

 

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Well VR does allow you to do put a big ass fan in front for that extra realism. In my case its mostly because its really warm atm in Copenhagen and i would otherwise fog up in 5 min.

 

IMG_2398.JPG

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51 minutes ago, FFS_Veiland said:

Well VR does allow you to do put a big ass fan in front for that extra realism. In my case its mostly because its really warm atm in Copenhagen and i would otherwise fog up in 5 min.

 

IMG_2398.JPG

MIG Crosswind pedals, the force is strong with this one!

For me it's VR all the way. Goback to monitors with trackir when learning different aircraft in DCS but it's just not the same anymore. I was lucky enough to try the Samsung odyssey but found it rather uncomfortable with my fat head. I have a Rift and will upgrade when rift 2 arrives. There is a compromise with resolution but it's worth it for now..

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I really enjoy this in VR. But I noticed that notifications and labels (red/blue colors on planes) are not visible in VR. Thi sis a problem, as in VR I do appreciate the help. Anybody else having this problem? I do not remember having this problem in the past. Is this new?

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Don't know about labels but notifications and chat work just fine in VR. You didn't accidentally disable the HUD did you?

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Posted (edited)
On 7/20/2018 at 10:07 AM, FFS_Veiland said:

Well VR does allow you to do put a big ass fan in front for that extra realism. In my case its mostly because its really warm atm in Copenhagen and i would otherwise fog up in 5 min.

 

IMG_2398.JPG

I have done the same ventilatortower cooling trick, only two smaller versions on both sides of the monitor, real refreshing on a hot day. 

I did have some plans to use an Arduino mini PC, that when I do reach the max. speed in a dive, the ventilators would also rampup to max.  Only it is rather difficult to detect the output from the speed trigger signal, more info can be read at:

http://fergotech.net/diy-wind-simulation/

https://www.xsimulator.net/community/threads/wind-simulator.8323/

 

Maybe a clever member could help? 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Dutch2
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14 hours ago, kunterbunt said:

hm, I can see both in 2D. Are you sure the HUD needs to be enabled?

 

Yes. Disabling hud ("h" key) turns off icons, the little compass, engine notifications (e.g. "throttle: 99%) and most other overlay stuff.

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I too have a 4k monitor but never use it in il2 since I have vr. Just adding to others comments that FC vr is awesome.

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What exactly is it that makes VR so expensive!? I've had a look online but they're all at crazy prices. What an I missing?

 

S!

Stumble.

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Posted (edited)
48 minutes ago, Stumble said:

What exactly is it that makes VR so expensive!? I've had a look online but they're all at crazy prices. What an I missing?

 

S!

Stumble.

 

They're certainly more accessible than they were, price wise, whether it's the HMD or the hardware needed to run them.

 

However there are several reasons some of which are;.  

 

 Niche market.  While VR might be the future it's still early days and until it gains criticle mass, economy's of scale are probably not there.

 

R & D,. For a relatively small market there is an incredible amount of R&D going on, by some of the brightest minds in computer gaming, that costs money.

 

The third thing, is a bit of a catch 22, lots of hardware is subsidized by software manufactures ( phones, gaming consoles etc). VR can't do this yet because VR hardware developers are still needing to do all they can to encourage software developers to commit time and money to an, as yet, small potential market.  Theoretically this might mean a higher upfront cost, for the hardware, but ultimately a lower cost for the software, as you are not subsidizing the hardware every time you buy a game.

Edited by HagarTheHorrible

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2 hours ago, HagarTheHorrible said:

 

They're certainly more accessible than they were, price wise, whether it's the HMD or the hardware needed to run them.

 

However there are several reasons some of which are;.  

 

 Niche market.  While VR might be the future it's still early days and until it gains criticle mass, economy's of scale are probably not there.

 

R & D,. For a relatively small market there is an incredible amount of R&D going on, by some of the brightest minds in computer gaming, that costs money.

 

The third thing, is a bit of a catch 22, lots of hardware is subsidized by software manufactures ( phones, gaming consoles etc). VR can't do this yet because VR hardware developers are still needing to do all they can to encourage software developers to commit time and money to an, as yet, small potential market.  Theoretically this might mean a higher upfront cost, for the hardware, but ultimately a lower cost for the software, as you are not subsidizing the hardware every time you buy a game.

Ok thanks.

 

So do VR sets plug right into the computer HDMI? Is it just a little screen and some movement sensors in the headset itself? 

 

Also, does VR require high end pc components? Is a 6gb gtx 1060 able to run these games at high settings? I mean it's a smaller screen than the normally screen we're used to do it should be fine right?

 

S!

Stumble.

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Don't worry Stumble, Governments will be supplying VR Devices free to everyone who hasn't got one soon enough. ;)

 

S!

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4 hours ago, Stumble said:

What exactly is it that makes VR so expensive!? I've had a look online but they're all at crazy prices. What an I missing?

 

S!

Stumble.

 

A lot is going into it. You have the most advanced head tracking technology available (puts the $150 TIR5 to shame), a pair of top of the line cell phone screens, a pair of headphones and a pair game controllers with accelerometers and either IR or regular LED's for the tracking cameras. Nothing about that is cheap. It's shocking you can get such a setup for as little as $250 USD (minus the headphones).

 

1 hour ago, Stumble said:

Ok thanks.

 

So do VR sets plug right into the computer HDMI? Is it just a little screen and some movement sensors in the headset itself? 

 

Also, does VR require high end pc components? Is a 6gb gtx 1060 able to run these games at high settings? I mean it's a smaller screen than the normally screen we're used to do it should be fine right?

 

S!

Stumble.

 

VR headsets have an HDMI cable that goes to your graphics card and a USB to take care of audio and to power the device. Whether or not there are external cameras depends on the device. The Rift uses a pair of IR cameras (1x USB 3.0 each) to track both the headset and controllers. This system is pretty much identical to TrackIR, just with 2+ sensors instead of 1. The Vive uses a similar system. The WMR headsets (e.g. Samsung Odyssey) use visible light cameras mounted inside the headset itself to track the world around and the two controllers. This requires no external sensors but has inferior hand tracking due to line of sight issues with the headset (e.g. reaching behind your back).

 

In terms of system requirements, they are enormous. First of all, the screens maybe small, but they aren't low resolution. They seem low resolution due to the huge field of view compared to a monitor, but they aren't actually low res. The Rift packs a combined resolution of 2160x1200 with a 90 Hz refresh rate. That alone is no joke in a graphically intense game. Additionally, because parallax is used (what gives you depth perception), every object must be rendered twice. This doubles the CPU requirements for the graphics engine compared to a regular 2d monitor. When combined with the 50% higher than normal refresh rate, the CPU usage for graphics is approximately 300% that of a regular 60 Hz 1080p monitor.

 

For IL2:BoX, I think a reasonable recommended system requirement is an overclocked Core/Ryzen CPU at 4.5GHz or higher and a GTX 1080. It is possible to run with less, but not at high-ish detail and definitely not at 90 fps. I wouldn't expect more than 45 fps with a GTX 1060 6GB at low-ish detail ("balanced" preset, most options off or on lowest setting). That is still playable, but is far from ideal.

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, BeastyBaiter said:

 

A lot is going into it. You have the most advanced head tracking technology available (puts the $150 TIR5 to shame), a pair of top of the line cell phone screens, a pair of headphones and a pair game controllers with accelerometers and either IR or regular LED's for the tracking cameras. Nothing about that is cheap. It's shocking you can get such a setup for as little as $250 USD (minus the headphones).

 

 

VR headsets have an HDMI cable that goes to your graphics card and a USB to take care of audio and to power the device. Whether or not there are external cameras depends on the device. The Rift uses a pair of IR cameras (1x USB 3.0 each) to track both the headset and controllers. This system is pretty much identical to TrackIR, just with 2+ sensors instead of 1. The Vive uses a similar system. The WMR headsets (e.g. Samsung Odyssey) use visible light cameras mounted inside the headset itself to track the world around and the two controllers. This requires no external sensors but has inferior hand tracking due to line of sight issues with the headset (e.g. reaching behind your back).

 

In terms of system requirements, they are enormous. First of all, the screens maybe small, but they aren't low resolution. They seem low resolution due to the huge field of view compared to a monitor, but they aren't actually low res. The Rift packs a combined resolution of 2160x1200 with a 90 Hz refresh rate. That alone is no joke in a graphically intense game. Additionally, because parallax is used (what gives you depth perception), every object must be rendered twice. This doubles the CPU requirements for the graphics engine compared to a regular 2d monitor. When combined with the 50% higher than normal refresh rate, the CPU usage for graphics is approximately 300% that of a regular 60 Hz 1080p monitor.

 

For IL2:BoX, I think a reasonable recommended system requirement is an overclocked Core/Ryzen CPU at 4.5GHz or higher and a GTX 1080. It is possible to run with less, but not at high-ish detail and definitely not at 90 fps. I wouldn't expect more than 45 fps with a GTX 1060 6GB at low-ish detail ("balanced" preset, most options off or on lowest setting). That is still playable, but is far from ideal.

Thanks for all the info! Alot of that stuff I didn't know.

 

I have a Ryzen 1500x and the gtx 1060 like I mentioned. Unfortunately I only have 8gb ddr4 ram but will potentially upgrade to 16gb when I get together the funds ( man ram is getting so damn expensive, especially here in NZ). ATM im just been using a 1080p 21-inch monitor. So yea. 

 

Salute!

Stumble.

Edited by Stumble

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8 hours ago, Zooropa_Fly said:

I thought you just bought a new monitor Stumble ?

Oh yeah that's right. We bought a tv monitor. A 49 inch 4k hdr one. I haven't really gotten around to using it yet properly on flying sims. I did try it once with mouse controls to test the graphics and it was looking pretty laggy.

 

However I have done a few racing games like f1 2017, dirt rally and this truck game called spintires (mudrunner). Those at 4k with high settings seemed to work fine. I was getting solid 60fps I think. The problem is I can't take the tv into my computer room (various issues there) and it is a massive hassle to set everything up out there. That's more an issue when I play my racing games with my Logitech g27. 

 

 

Also, I've sort of taped my PS3 eye head tracking camera onto my monitor and can't really be bothered taking it off 😂😂 I'm just being lazy. 

 

 

 

I'll try it sometime soon 

 

S!

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