German copies and opponents of the Po-2/U-2

[Avimimus]

 

Overview:

 

German forces quickly found that conventional night fighters were too fast to safely intercept the Po-2\U-2 biplanes.

 

From late 1942 onward the Luftwaffe attempted to imitate the “night witches” with their own harassment squadrons (often using more powerful but lightly armed aircraft)

 

I have organised these aircraft into three groups: Those being operated in similar non-combat roles (observers), those being used as harassment aircraft with bombs (bombers), and those pressed into service as low-speed night fighters (hunters).

 

For comparison

 

U-2/Po-2:

- One defensive ShKAS

- Up to 6xFAB50 bombs, also hand dropped bombs

- Sometimes, anti-tank or incendiary bomblets, or up to eight rockets. Also paratroopers or cargo.

- Rarely one fixed forward firing gun (both an early variant, and a later field mod)

- 152 km/h, 41 kg/m², 770kg empty weight, 125 hp

 

Lisunov-2VV:

- Up to one flexible 12.7mm UBK, and up to two flexible ShKAS

- One fixed ShKAS (and once 2x45mm cannon in 1944!)

- Up to 2000 kg of bombs

- Up to 8 rockets.

- 300 km/h, 116.7 kg/m²,  7,750 kg, 2x987 hp

 

Now the German aircraft

 

Henschel 126

- Late 1942 (use as night bombs, common recon aircraft earlier)

- 1xSC50 and/or 5xSC10

- Fixed Mg17 and flexible Mg15 (975 rounds)

- 356 km/h, 97.8 kg/m² wing loading, 2000kg empty weight, 850 hp

 

Converted Trainer Biplane (Ar-66, Go-145)

- December 1942 (Use as night bombers)

- 2kg-4kg bombs or 1xsc50

- Rarely a single defensive Mg15

- 210 km/h, ~45 kg/m², ~800-900 kg empty weight, 240 hp

 

 

 

Junkers 87 D5

- May 1943 (although mainly 1944)

- Extended wingspan compared to the D3 (along with flame dampers and numerous small changes)

- 1800kg of bombs

- 2x20mm Mg-151, 1xMg81z defensive gun

- 400 km/h, 196 kg/m2,3940 kg, 1391hp

 

 

 

 

Focke-Wulf Fw-58 “Weihe”

- Used as a night fighter from Stalingrad onward

- 12xSC10

- 4xMg-17 fixed forward firing guns (Mg-151 jazz music installation only appeared in 1944)

- Possibly WB-81 gunpods (6xMg-81z) if photographs can be found

- Sometimes a flexible defensive gun

- 256 km/h, 59.8 kg/m², 1900kg empty weight, 2x240 hp

 

 

Fw-189 'Uhu'

- Limited night fighter use from May 1942 onward

- 4xSc-50

- 2xMg17 fixed forward firing guns, later two  Mg-151/20 fixed forward firing cannons

- Up to 2xMg-81z flexible defensive guns.

- 357 km/h, 103.9 kg/m², 3950kg empty weight, 2x459 hp

 

 

He-111 night fighter

- Flexible forward firing Mg-FF cannon with flash suppressor

- Possibly WB-81 gunpods (6xMg-81z) if photographs can be found

- Highest scoring aces against Po-2 flew this plane (14 kills, 11 kills etc.)

- Flash suppressors on engines

- 440 km/h, 137 kg/m², 8,680kg, 2x1300hp

 

 

 

Fi-156

- 1xMg-15 defensive gun

- Rarely a bomb load (after 1944 some aircraft carried bomblets under the wings ~96kg)

- 175 km/h, 48.5 kg/m², 860 kg empty weight, 240hp

 

 

 

Some notes and reflections:

 

Overall:

- The German aircraft had better power-to-weight ratios than their Russian opponents

- The Fw-58, Fw-189, Ju-87D5, and He-111 all potentially outgun their opponents
 

Sizes:

- The Fi-156, Ar-66 are similar in weight to the Po-2

- The FW-58 and Hs-126 are about twice the weight

- The Fw-189 and Ju-87D5 are bigger at almost four times the weight (with the He-111 night fighters being a behemoth at about nine times the weight)

 

The Fw-58C:
- It has an enormous wing with a low wing-loading similar to a bi-plane! This should make it very easy to hunt with. I've tried fully extending a Bf-110's flaps, decreasing throttle to 76% and only using the Mg-17s to simulate the experience against Ju-52s and I found it extremely rewarding.

- However, it would have difficulty catching a Lisunov Li-2 at full speed. Although it might have a chance of catching a fully loaded Li-2 at low speed.

 

The Ju-87D5:

- Is a late aircraft (1943) and wasn't used in the observation/communication or night-fighter roles (so far as I can tell).

 

The Fw-189 & Hs-126:

- Has the heaviest defensive armament and one of the heaviest offensive armaments (if the A4 is modelled). The Hs-126 was more numerous early in the war but was largely replaced in 1942, however it has a higher power to weight ratio.

- One of these aircraft Fw-189 or Hs-126 would probably give the most varied game-play (followed by the Fw-58, and then the Fi-156). The use of the Fw-189 as a night fighter, observation, communications aircraft, and light bomber probably make it the most varied.

 

The Fi-156 and Trainer aircraft were produced in larger numbers than the dedicated combat aircraft:

>600 - Hs-126

864 - Fw-189

1,182 - Go-145 (most used as trainers)

1350 - Fw-58 (most used as trainers)

2,900 - Fi-156

 

Note: Firepower doesn't include explosive shells and was calculated with data from: http://users.telenet.be/Emmanuel.Gustin/fgun/fgun-pe.html In addition, the 1944 armament upgrades for the Fw-58 and Fw-189 were not included, nor were the more extensively modified He-111s. In all of these cases firepower is much higher (especially with WB-81 pods fitted)!

 

Edited March 2, 2022 by Avimimus

[Bremspropeller]

I voted for the Fw 58, Fw 189 and the Ar 66/ Go 145.

 

The reason behind this is simple:

 

The Arado/ Gotha are closest to the direct counterpart of the Po-2.

The Fw 189 is a long-overdue addition to the IL-2 series, as it was used as recce-bird, night-fighter and attack-aircraft. It's also rather interesting to look at and had a good reputation on both sides (well, the Soviets didn't *like* it, but you get the idea…).

The Fw 58 is very interesting, because it has never been modelled in any sim (IIRC) and it also is very versatile: Makeshift-bomber, night-fighter, trainer, liaison aircraft and light transport. I believe there was also a Fw 58 version with floats, which would make an interesting mod.

 

On the other side:

The Henschel and Storch are both interesting, but they're pretty much single-purpose and both don't particularily tick my box.

The Stuka is already in game and could be done by a mod or at least could be fudged into the mission (yeah, it's missing the wing-extensions of the D-5, but what the heck...).

Same for the He 111 - I'd also make the case for a Ju 88 "Zerstörer" version, which would be more interesting to me. Both the He 111 and Ju 88 are "too much airplane" for Po-2 Hunting, but they'd be nice for creating havoc behind the frontlines. No matter if train-busting, truck convoi hunting or creating some fear and loathing among soviet Transport Aviation crews.

[FoxbatRU]

Minimum - Fw 189. Maximum Fw 189 & Hs 126. IMHO.?

Edited July 16, 2018 by FoxbatRU

[Royal_Flight]

I didn’t vote as I don’t think we need a specific night-fighter or bomber, but I would be in favour of the Fw 189 as it’s an interesting choice and gets the most variety from a single airframe. 

[Nil]

Sure a Fw189 would be a very nice addition. It is such an amazing plane... as well as the Fi156 (which were much more produced)

However, I really believe the dev have to make the Fi156 before , because it is more easy to make, good counterpart of the Po2. 

It can do

Tank , artillery spotting , take off/land almost anywhere. 

Medevac, Special operations forces behind enemy lines.

[xvii-Dietrich]

Nice poll, @Avimimus with good photographs and supplementary material to go with it.

 

Definitely a vote for the Ar66C from me...  because it would lend itself to an Ar66B collector plane to follow ?

 

 

[angus26]

On 7/26/2018 at 7:42 AM, TG1_Nil said:

Sure a Fw189 would be a very nice addition. It is such an amazing plane... as well as the Fi156 (which were much more produced)

However, I really believe the dev have to make the Fi156 before , because it is more easy to make, good counterpart of the Po2. 

It can do

Tank , artillery spotting , take off/land almost anywhere. 

Medevac, Special operations forces behind enemy lines.

I feel exactly the same way. Sure a lot of people want the fw-189, but I think the fi-156 would wake a much better counterpart to the po-2 than the fw-189. The po-2 needs another slow, single engined friend imo.

[gimpy117]

I just want that asymmetrical blom and voss plane (bv.141)

 

but only 20 were built so I know it won't happen  

 

[OrLoK]

36 minutes ago, gimpy117 said:

I just want that asymmetrical blom and voss plane (bv.141)

 

but only 20 were built so I know it won't happen  

 

<snip>

we *need* a "Secret Weapons of" expansion pack with all the odd aircraft!

Edited October 30, 2019 by OrLoK

[gimpy117]

23 hours ago, OrLoK said:

we *need* a "Secret Weapons of" expansion pack with all the odd aircraft!

would be a fun: in the future thing. ascender for the US, P-80, P-59 meteor and vampire for the Brits 

 

he-162, (262 that we already have), komet, 

 

and maybe the feather and fargo for the soviets (if you would bend rules and go till 46-47 

 

and maybe some prototype attack aircraft like the arado 

 

 

[Motherbrain]

Sad to see the Hs-126 is the least popular. I've always been interested by it. I'd love to have it and would buy it in a heartbeat.

 

 

But the Fw-189 is also an excellent choice.

 

 

I'd pretty much be happy to see any and/or all of the above to be honest. I'd agree we need more non-combat aircraft for ze Germans.

Edited October 31, 2019 by Motherbrain

[Feathered_IV]

I'd want the storch for its multi-role capability for communications, ambulance and spotting (lamenting the lack of stretcher pods on the Po-2).

The 189 would be a big boost for the series too in its recon and night fighter/harassment roles.

[Rei-sen]

I need all aircraft listed. I hope they will be added in the future. 

[Avimimus]

Some more information on the use of the He-111 as a night fighter:

 

 

[76IAP-Black]

nearly forgot about this poll

Some more light planes for the german side would be interesting to have. As mentioned before the 189 is long overdue in this series .... since 2001 

[Avimimus]

4 hours ago, 76IAP-Black said:

nearly forgot about this poll

Some more light planes for the german side would be interesting to have. As mentioned before the 189 is long overdue in this series .... since 2001 

 

I'd forgotten about the poll entirely myself! But when the subject was raised by someone else I remembered and decided to link to the additional information on the night-fighter He-111 (as part of making research easier).

 

If the WWI artillery spotter gameplay can be expanded to allow commanding different types of artillery, and ordering different types of fire-missions, then it potentially gives aircraft like the Fi-156, Fw-189, U-2VS and Stinson L-5 a lot of gameplay - considering they were often controlling multiple batteries of artillery, they technically had a heavier armament at their disposal than any other aircraft of the war! There is also some room for synergy with Tank Crew in multiplayer.

 

So, the new announcement of artillery spotting for Flying Circus makes me more optimistic that we might someday get the Fw-189 or Fi-156.

 

P.S. I remember the Fw-189 in the original Il-2 demo... for me it is almost symbolic of 'the sim which simulates the war in Eastern Europe has been created'. Great view and nice tail sting too.

[76IAP-Black]

That's a good point with the new ingame observer mechanics.
The Fw-189 recieved a mod that made her flyable later during the modding years of the old il2.

Im still optimistic of 2 additional things comming to il2 BOX. The Floatplane for different scenarios and a water upgrade for coastel maps. 
We have new clouds, new sky lightning and a steady improvement of the older and current maps. So what it left? Water! Upgrade it and promote it with float planes ... and you have an instant buy for many pilots.

For the most of my time im flying around with planes, without enemies or targets, just enjoying the scenerie, clouds and sky

[Cybermat47]

6 hours ago, 76IAP-Black said:

Im still optimistic of 2 additional things comming to il2 BOX. The Floatplane for different scenarios and a water upgrade for coastel maps. 
We have new clouds, new sky lightning and a steady improvement of the older and current maps. So what it left? Water! Upgrade it and promote it with float planes ... and you have an instant buy for many pilots.

 

The Bv 138 was used operationally in the Black Sea, so there is one flying boat that would fit with what we have.

 

There was also a floatplane version of the Ju 52, but I'm not sure if that was used in the Black Sea.

[Avimimus]

6 hours ago, Cybermat47 said:

The Bv 138 was used operationally in the Black Sea, so there is one flying boat that would fit with what we have.

 

There was also a floatplane version of the Ju 52, but I'm not sure if that was used in the Black Sea.

 

Arado Ar-196 was used as well (and can be used as a spotter and operated from smaller lakes). So it is a bit attractive as a collector plane.

 

However, I think all of the naval aircraft (including those operated by minor axis powers such as Romania) were based on the west side of the Black Sea, with a refueling point at Sevastopol (with the exception of maybe six months where some units were fully stationed at Sevastopol). Some of these aircraft would have appeared on a Baltic map (East '45? Leningrad? Bodenplatte/Rhein). Anyway, interesting aircraft all-round. I suspect they won't refresh the float-plane physics until FCIV (assuming it happens) though, so that might make these aircraft less attractive. I also can't help but imagine a Motor Torpedo Boat / Mosquito Boat as a hypothetical in some distant future... but I think any of these ideas are very far off. I'd be happy to be proven wrong though

[Mtnbiker1998]

Don't really have a huge preference, but I've always thought the fw-189 would make a good addition to the game, if only to make the P-38 a little less obvious to ID from a distance! haha.

 

jokes aside, any planes that add unique and new gameplay like observers, or more night fighters would absolutely make the game more interesting.