Q: Frontlines and dates

[CCIP]

Just a quick couple of questions for you Pat:

I was poking around the PWCG file structure, and noticed that the format for frontlines is a relatively straightforward one.
a) Have you given any consideration to chunking up the campaigns into more frequent frontline updates? (weekly or more)
b) Would you be interested in ready-to-use data (i.e. completed FrontLines.json files) for such updates?

I ask since flying the campaigns, sometimes the front feels a bit, well, static. I realize that PWCG was originally written for ROF, where the frontline is very static indeed - but in the BoS world, at least certain stages of the operations were highly mobile, with the front line changing progressively and in pretty short spans of time. Right now it feels a bit like it "jumps" very drastically between operation phases, and then freezes.

Now, I don't know what else goes into generating and staging out a PWCG campaign - but is there anything else (other than time/work involved) that would make more frequent frontline updates impractical? I don't know, for example, if things like the facilities/squadron locations also have to be redone every time a frontline is updated.

If not, I don't mind volunteering a bit of time to giving it a look and providing data that updates the BoS campaign maps more often when the operational picture calls for it (which is not always - for example Stalingrad doesn't need too much updating between late September and mid-November). There's lots of good map data out there that I could use for it  

[Yogiflight]

Apart from front airfields, that might be on the other side of the front, the whole ground war had to be moved with the front lines. Plus PWCG has to recognize the front lines, so it knows if you crashland or bail out on the right side. Not to forget, that the missions, especially front patrol and ground attack on front troops have to fit to the new lines. But you are right more movement would be nice. For that reason I always customize the mission spacing to larger distances between the missions, so I don't fly for too long with the same front lines.

Edited July 10, 2018 by Yogiflight

[PatrickAWlson]

The only real issue is airfield placement.  If you put in a new front lines folder PWCG will recognize it, but unless you review every squadron's airfield assignment you will probably have units on the wrong side.  The other factor is history vs gameplay.  I do alter the historical lines somewhat to account for airfield location and squadron placement.  PWCG is close but given the choice, I always opt for close with good gameplay rather than historically perfect with gameplay issues.

[TheSNAFU]

Does PWCG have a lot of flexibility in terms of where the front goes?I've played the game almost exclusively with PWCG and do not recall ever seeing the front actually reach the Volga or into Stalingrad? Maybe I was killed to early but I'm pretty sure I've made it into late

 September. I'm sure I  am mistaken but what have others experienced?

Edited July 11, 2018 by TheSNAFU

[CCIP]

8 hours ago, PatrickAWlson said:

The only real issue is airfield placement.  If you put in a new front lines folder PWCG will recognize it, but unless you review every squadron's airfield assignment you will probably have units on the wrong side.  The other factor is history vs gameplay.  I do alter the historical lines somewhat to account for airfield location and squadron placement.  PWCG is close but given the choice, I always opt for close with good gameplay rather than historically perfect with gameplay issues.

 
And that's a good point, I agree! Still, if airfield/squadron assignments are the only other issue, I think that's something I'll try and take a crack at for myself - and if the results are reasonable, I'll be glad to share them  

Honestly, other than the mobility, my other nitpick with the frontlines is that there's some really noticable historical inconsistencies in them - but that's probably because I've been reading a bit too much about the events involved, and I agree that from a gameplay perspective it doesn't make a huge lot of difference! 

 

4 hours ago, TheSNAFU said:

Does PWCG have a lot of flexibility in terms of where the front goes?I've played the game almost exclusively with PWCG and do not recall ever seeing the front actually reach the Volga or into Stalingrad? Maybe I was killed to early but I'm pretty sure I've made it into late

 September. I'm sure I  am mistaken but what have others experienced?

The German frontline gets there on 11 October '42. You can check all the frontline locations if you click on "PWCG Information" from the main menu.
 

Edited July 11, 2018 by CCIP

[PatrickAWlson]

@TheSNAFU

Yes.  The maximum German advance goes through 23 Nov 1942.  On 23 Nov the Russian counterattack sweeps away the German gains.  

 

@CCIP

I already have some code that looks for units stationed either behind enemy lines or too close to the front.  I can try to make that more easily available from the edit map.

 

When I am working I tend to do the lines, then juggle the squadrons ... repeat until I am happy with the results.  From a gameplay point of view there are several tings that I look for:

1. Ensure nothing is completely wrong - i.e. squadrons on the wrong side.

2. Avoid placing squadrons within artillery range of the front.  For WWI I will put squadrons a bit closer, but a WWII plane can cover 50km in 10 minutes normal time.  I usually go for at least 30km from the front.

3. I try to avoid mashing too many squadrons together on the same field.  This can be inevitable  when one side owns the vast majority of the battlefield, but I always try.  I also put the squadrons in layers: fighters closest to the front, attack maybe a bit further, bombers in the rear.  You can use the PWCG Information map on the main page to see how each type of squadron is placed today.

 

Absolute historical squadron placement is the least of my worries, especially since the lines are not 100% accurate on a daily basis.  Get them in about the right spot and that's fine.  

[CCIP]

Thanks for the explanation! If you could make the map editing available more easily, that'd be great - I've been working on it by hand via config editing at the moment.

Here's what I managed to whip up so far in a couple of hours - here's the German offensive phase of Stalingrad. I've ended up splitting it into 7 phases that average out to about 3 weeks each - which covers all the main stages of it pretty reasonably. I've incorporated the existing campaign dates so that it avoids confusion when changing the squadron files. So far it's just the Axis frontline - will have to do the Allied one after!

(1) August 1: Battle of Kalach is in progress, Germans about to trap remaining Soviet forces on the West bank of the Don

(2) August 12: Battle of Kalach winding down, Germans complete advance to the line of the Don


(3) August 23: German advance to the Volga
Note the Soviet counter-advances on two bridgeheads across the Don in the northern part of the map!

(4) September 6: German advance on Stalingrad / early phases of battle for the city

 

(5) September 26: Battle for the city at its height
Note the Soviet counterattack attempts in the Mal. Orlovka area


(6) October 11: German advance nearing stalemate


(7) November 10: Greatest reduction of the Soviet position, which is now split into two small pockets (this one might not actually be meaningful enough from the air perspective to warrant its own phase)

Edited July 11, 2018 by CCIP

[CCIP]

...and here's the Soviet offensive phase - this one I just made as mockups, rather than game data, in case you might make an easier method of editing the frontline map available

Here's my suggested phases (though a couple might be just extra detail that isn't too relevant from the air perspective):

(8) November 20th: Operation Uranus - Breakout
This is the first day of the Soviet counterattack on the south side, and second day on the north side. The front is blown wide open and things are in disarray - I think this phase, while really short, is important to show in the campaign (also it helps prevent the change from seeming too sudden when the encirclement completes)


(9) November 24: Operation Uranus - encirclement completed
(the actual encirclement was closed late afternoon on the 23rd - by which point most missions will have been flown in the campaign)


(10) December 12: Operation Winter Storm launches (Manstein's relief attempt) 
note the 'bulge' of the building offensive on the south side


(11) December 23: Operation Winter Storm fails / Operation Little Saturn in progress
Manstein's relief attempt reaches its furthest point of advance toward Stalingrad and stalls, while Soviets make significant progress on the west side of the map


(12) January 1, 1943: Operation Little Saturn/Kotelnikovo Offensive
Overextended German forces pull back from Stalingrad. Front on the west side remains the same for the rest of the scenario, only the Stalingrad Kessel changes


(13) 12 January: Soviet assault on the Stalingrad Kessel begins, Karpovka airfield overrun


(14) January 19th: Fall of Pitomnik 


(15) January 23: Fall of Gumrak
Technically, the Germans lose all their airfields at this point except Shkolny, which in reality was no longer capable of handling aircraft either


(16) January 28: The End
German forces split into two pockets and lose all access to airfields (technically this phase might be kind of irrelevant, at least in terms of pilot rescue, because anybody who bailed out or crash-landed after the loss of airfields would have no chance of escaping captivity here). 



What do you think for this as far as a slightly more detailed campaign stage structure?

Edited July 11, 2018 by CCIP

[PatrickAWlson]

That would be a major improvement to say the least.  I do have a hidden editor that creates front lines.  Let me do some work on it.  I will release it in next release - probably Saturday.  Don't try to hand edit the map locations.  That is needless pain.

[CCIP]

Cheers, thank you! I'll hang on for it and do some research on the Moscow and Kuban frontlines in the meantine

(And yeah, it's pretty painful, but I'm a data nerd and long-time modder of game data, and almost expect to do that - so it's always great to have people like yourself building user-friendly tools to save people like me from spending hours doing silly things!)

[CCIP]

So here are my modest proposals for Moscow... It was a very mobile operation, but I've split it up into 10-day chunks where possible (with a couple of exceptions).

Part I: German offensive phases

(1) October 1, 1941: offensive begins
This is a very generous representation - in fact, on October 1st, there were basically no German units on this map. But they were advancing very rapidly (30-50km per day) during this period, so this gives the German side some advance airfields to fly from by the start. 


(2) October 10: Vyazma pocket encircled
Huge force of Soviet troops trapped in the forests west of Vyazma starting Oct 7th, German advance continues rapidly bypassing them


(3) October 15: the Mozhaisk line
this is a short 5-day phase to enable the Soviet side to fly some last-ditch missions close to the front at Mozhaisk and Maloyaroslavets - those positions did not hold long, however. Initial capture of Kalinin and Rzhev also happened on the 14th, but the airfields there shouldn't yet be usable by the German side. Vyazma pocket is now irrelevant from the air perspective; no more Soviet air support is provided there, and it can be treated as 'friendly' territory for the Germans.


(4) October 20: Mozhaisk line falls
Soviet units fall back to the line of the river Protva, lose key airfields at Mozhaisk and Maloyaroslavets. Germans, on the other hand, gain use of fields at Rzhev and Kalinin.


(5) November 1: Fall of Volokolamsk
Soviets lose several more airfields, but the pace of German advance slows down most substantially during this period


(6) November 10: Klin-Solnechnogork operation
German Panzer attacks from the Volga reservoir along the main Moscow-Leningrad highway


(7) November 20: Moscow Canal
the furthest German line of advance, representing gains made during November 19-23rd. There were a few other minor advances, including a bridgehead across the canal (almost off the eastern edge of the map north of Moscow), but I figure the "moving front" feature will cover that, and none of those advances were major or lasting. Soviets already started making some counterattacks during this period as well.


Soviet offensive phase: coming next part!

Also, if I could make a suggestion... would you be interested in 1942-1943 operations on this map as an alternative to Kuban/Stalingrad for some squadrons? 

Edited July 12, 2018 by CCIP

[CCIP]

And here they are stuck together - it illustrates sort of what I meant in my original question. If you look at it this way, it really evens out the amount of territory/gained lost between the different stages of the campaign, so that the "jumps" are less sudden but the timing is still reasonable.



(interestingly, the biggest "jump" happens during the shortest phase, lasting just 5 days - but that says just mostly speaks to the pace of the German offensive itself and how quickly it ran out of steam after early-mid October!)

[CCIP]

And here's my "part 2" proposal of phases for Moscow - the Soviet offensive 

(8) December 5, 1941: Soviet Winter Offensive opens
Germans are pushed back from Moscow on their overextended northern flank. 


(9) 15 December: Klin and Solnechnogorsk recaptured by Soviets, Kalinin position threatened


(10) December 25: Germans retreat from Kalinin
Heavy Soviet attacks all across the front


(11) January 5, 1942: Soviets recapture Staritsa in the north and Maloyaroslavets in the South
German position at Rzhev threatened


(12) January 15: Battle of Rzhev begins
Soviet forces from further west outflank the German position at Rzhev, nearly trapping 7 divisions (note the "pocket" of Soviet troops that appears on the west side of the map)


(13) January 25: Rzhev-Vyazma Operation
Soviet forces recapture Mozhaisk in the center, while the first of a number of paratroop droops are made south of Vyazma (note pocket in the south - that's them). Meanwhile, at Rzhev in the north, the Soviet 29th Army's attempt to encircle the Germans in the city falters under heavy air attacks - and they instead find themselves surrounded by a German counterattack. They are able to break out of the encirclement and escape in early February


(14) February 5: Rzhev-Vyazma Operation - stalemate
further Soviet attacks and airborne landings near Vyazma make for a precarious position - but by this point, the offensive has actually run out of steam. German counterattacks prevent the Soviets from linking up, and heavy Luftwaffe attacks essentially paralyze the forces caught in the pocket


(15) March 5: Rzhev-Vyazma Operation - defeat
Soviets recapture Yukhnov, but elsewhere the Germans stabilize and reinforce their positions. The besieged troops south of Vyazma remain stuck with little support.


(16) April 15: The End
The cut-off Soviet troops south of Vyazma are destroyed, and the Germans have fully stabilized their position. The heavily reinforced Rzhev salient remains a thorn in the Soviet side for another year. Front lines change little over the following months, as the German summer offensive moves to the South. 


I'll look into a possible 42-43 campaign for Moscow later, but I'll get Kuban knocked out next

Edited July 12, 2018 by CCIP

[CCIP]

So here's me taking a crack at Kuban - part 1 being the German offensive. 

This one's a little tricky, because unlike the other theaters, for much of the length of this area there wasn't historically a continuous frontline, as much of it ran through mountains where there weren't actually any troops except in passes and at key heights. 
The German advance through Kuban was also very rapid, going from no forces on-map (except at Kerch) to their maximum line of advance in just 6 weeks. So I've split this up into 5-day stages, some of which may be optional-ish...

(1) August 1, 1942: Start
as with the Moscow map, there weren't actually any German units on the map (except across the straits at Kerch) on August 1st, but the situtaion was evolving rapidly. Germans had just broken out of Rostov and were advancing extremely rapidly, sometimes over 100km per day for the leading formations, so this is probably a fair compromise for the first few days that gives Germans bases and land units to support at the start


(2) August 5: Kropotkin and Ust-Labinskaya captured


(3) August 10: Maikop captured; Germans at the gates of Krasnodar


(4) August 15: Fall of Krasnodar
historically, the city was captured on August 15th though some fighting persisted in the area. Slavyanskaya also captured


(5) August 20: German and Romanian forces pushing southeast, approaching Krymskaya


(5) August 25: Krymskaya falls
Axis forces have overrun the Kuban valley completely, and are pushing towards the coast.


(6) September 1st: Anapa falls
breakout to the coast has occurred, and now the Soviet forces in the Taman peninsula are cut off


(7) September 5th: Landings from the sea
with Taman peninsula cut off, forces invade across the Kerch strait in two landings and begin mopping up, while the main force on land turns toward Novorossiysk


(8) September 10th: Fall of Novorossiysk/Stalemate
The German advance ends rather abruptly; Novorossiysk is captured on Sep 11th (although Russians maintain a small foothold on the eastern edges of the city), but this also marks the high watermark of the campaign for the Axis. This is largely because forces are diverted from here to the (failed) attempts to cross the main Caucasus range further east, and the battle at Stalingrad that is reaching its climax further north. The frontline remains largely static and inactive from here for many weeks until the Soviet counter-attack...



And again, main reason I'm suggesting this is not just historical accuracy, but also making the transitions between phases in the campaign a little smoother - here's all the German offensive phases put together, and you can see that the advance happens in relatively even chunks, usually about 20-40 km deep, during each phase. 



Just one last bit left, Soviet offensive phase next!   

Edited July 15, 2018 by CCIP

[CCIP]

And here's the other part of Kuban

Actually before getting to the Soviet offensive, there was one more minor German advance towards Tuapse in October 1942. It failed and made only minor progress, but the frontline remained fixed there for the next several weeks (with some back and forth, but the moving frontline feature should account for that well enough)...

(9) 10 October, 1942: Tuapse Operation
last German advance in the area


And now the Soviet offensive phase...

(9) January 15, 1943: Soviet advance begins


(10) January 25: Soviet forces approaching Maikop


(11) February 1: Maikop and Kropotkin recaptured


(12) February 5: Timashevskaya and Ust-Labinskaya recaptured
Soviet advance developing very rapidly towards Krasnodar. On February 4th, two amphibious landings just south of Novorossiysk are carried out


(13) February 15: Krasnodar recaptured by the Soviets
at Novorossiysk, the western landing is dislodged by the Soviets, but they regroup and develop the eastern bridgehead just south of the city instead. It remains there for the next several months, supplied by sea and in constant battles against the defending Germans.


(14) March 15: Akhtyrskaya, Ivanovskaya, Krasnoarmeyskaya recaptured
Soviet offensive is by now beginning to run out of steam against a consolidated German defence


(15) April 5: Abinskaya, Slavyanskaya and Anastasievskaya recaptured


(16) May 5: Krymskaya recaptured
The Soviet offensive for the spring has now finished, and frontlines remain here at the 'Blue Line' for the summer of 1943


(17) 15 September: Novorossiysk recaptured
After months of stalemate, Soviet forces break out of the bridgehead at Novorossiysk, retaking most of the city in several days of battle


(18) September 20: Blue line broken
Germans now in rapid retreat towards the Taman peninsula


(19) September 25: Anapa recaptured
Soviet amphibious landings on German flanks, both on the Black Sea and Azov coasts


(20) October 1: Last stand on the Taman peninsula
German forces are in fact rapidly evacuating across the Kerch straits, with only rear guard elements hanging on until October 9th.


(21) October 10, 1943: The End
All Axis forces have now evacuated to the Crimea across the Kerch Strait



And again, a combined map for the Soviet offensive phase, covering the front for the whole year of October 1942-October 1943:


I'll be happy to turn this into PWCG-friendly data soon as I have the tools to do so!  

[CCIP]

And, as an encore - here are the Moscow map operations I wanted to look for '42-'43, representing a totally viable campaign for the Battle of Rzhev. This area saw intense fighting, but in an almost WWI-like fashion - very little actual progress of the frontline during the period, until the Germans voluntarily withdrew in March 1943 to shorten their lines. So, it shouldn't be that difficult to model.

picking up where the Soviet offensive phase for the Moscow map left off in my post above...

(16) April 15, 1942: End of Soviet Winter Offensive/Rzhev Salient established
(I made a small tweak to part of the line here, after doing a little more research and seeing that the front ran through Pogoreloye Gorodische rather than further west)


(17) July 10, 1942: Operation Seydlitz (end)
Over the preceding 10 days, Germans push the Soviets out of that flank position on the west side. Good timing to keep some player squadrons here before moving to the Stalingrad front at the end of July/start of August!


(18) August 5: Rzhev-Sychovka Offensive - Soviet Breakout
the Soviet summer attempt to destroy the Rzhev Salient begins with an assault out of Pogoreloye Gorodische


(19) August 25: Rzhev-Sychovka Offensive - Stalemate
Soviets are unable to make progress much further beyond this, and the line becomes stuck here for the next several weeks (back and forth simulated by moving frontline feature). Although the Soviets temporarily retake Rzhev in late September, they're unable to hold it. Airfield at Rzhev should be unusable to the Germans during this period, however.


(20) November 30: Operation Mars
The massive Soviet offensive coinciding with the encirclement of Stalingrad results in extremely bitter and costly fighting around Rzhev, but very little actual frontline progress in November-December, so the line does not change significantly and Germans remain in Rzhev - with the line staying more or less the same until March.


(21) March 5, 1943: Operation Buffel - start
Germans make an organized withdrawal (codenamed Operation Buffel) from Rzhev to shorten their lines and free up forces for summer operations (that eventually led to the Battle of Kursk) - pulling back to Sychevka in the first week of March


(22) March 12: Operation Buffel - Vyazma line
In another week, Germans again withdraw in an orderly fashion to Vyazma


(23) March 20, 1943: Operation Buffel - the end
last phase of the German withdrawal - leaving just two last airfields usable on the map. By March 30th, all German forces will be gone from this map for good.


I think this should make for some good campaign possibilities - all the assets for the Moscow front in '42-early '43 are certainly there already (as long as the player owns BOS/BOK)! 

I also definitely encourage using this map for all player squadrons from October 1941 until July-August 1942, instead of the ahistorical diversions of squadrons to the Stalingrad and Kuban maps (right now many of the player squadrons get sent to the Stalingrad map on March 1st, then to Kuban on June 1st). That really shouldn't happen, because there were no German forces at all on either of them in the spring of 1942 - so having a longer Moscow campaign instead is a much better solution.

Otherwise, by my count that makes a total of 61 campaign stages that I just proposed for the 3 maps - it might also be a good idea to throw in one more for Kuban at the start (with no German forces except in the Crimea across the straits, so the player could still do some flying in July 1942), and maybe two more for Stalingrad (one more for early July 1942, and one more for the German withdrawal after the fall of Stalingrad itself in February 1943). So that'd be 64 in total, vs. the 23 that are in PWCG as of 4.1.1 right now. How does that seem as a campaign structure? Reasonable, or a bit too much?

Edited July 17, 2018 by CCIP

[PatrickAWlson]

I think that the detail will definitely add to the experience,  There are some PWCG quirks to consider: encircled areas can lead to wonky results in terms of behind the lines checks and airfield ownership.  PWCG tends to object to contested airfields, but sometimes in a pocket that's all there is.

 

The key is do it gradually, like Murleen's work on the airfields.  Pick day 1 on Moscow, make the first addition, redo airfield assignments, do the next front line iteration ... rinse wash repeat.  Every so often I will post a release with whatever is done.

 

[FTC_Riksen]

Pat ... going with the idea above, would be possible to have PWCG load a different set of map image for a specific date? This way I could create more immersive map images in the map screen like the one below I based on the Carrer mode:

 

Edited July 28, 2018 by SCG_Riksen

[PatrickAWlson]

I would do something like that as an overlay on the map.  In Gimp terms, just make the arrows an extra layer.  Export it as a GIF with the underlying map transparent.  That would be very doable.

 

However ... if CCIP is going to play with front lines it runs the risk of immediately invalidating any overlays for the old lines.

[CCIP]

Well, in truth, I can probably find a good template to make maps that look very similar to that for my proposed map stages - I'm confident I could do at least as good a job as the 1CGS devs, given enough time 

Map-drawing and overlays happens to be my specialty, actually. Here's a Battle of Britain map with an RAF grid overlay I did for "Gary Grigsby's "agle Day to Bombing the Reich" for example. I could work out a template for PWCG/IL-2 maps just the same.



But as Patrick said, it's something to do in stages - function first, then bells and whistles! 

 

 

Edited July 29, 2018 by CCIP

[FTC_Riksen]

If you need help with the map overlays, please let me know. I'm somewhat decent with photoshop ... Thanks CCIP!

[CCIP]

Just thought I'd bump this - PatrickAWlson, if you get a chance to do a tool for editing the frontline more easily in one of the next versions, I'd be glad to work on implementing some of these as ever  

[Leoxbom]

On 10/22/2018 at 5:34 PM, CCIP said:

Just thought I'd bump this - PatrickAWlson, if you get a chance to do a tool for editing the frontline more easily in one of the next versions, I'd be glad to work on implementing some of these as ever  

Have we ever got a frontline editing tool? Ive been looking for one to make truly dynamic outcomes (I would roll a dice and add my last 3 missions outcome as modifiers, pretty much like rolliing an attribute in an RPG game) so the germans could actually win

[PatrickAWlson]

4 hours ago, Leoxbom said:

Have we ever got a frontline editing tool? Ive been looking for one to make truly dynamic outcomes (I would roll a dice and add my last 3 missions outcome as modifiers, pretty much like rolliing an attribute in an RPG game) so the germans could actually win

PWCG would not support anything nearly that dynamic.  The movement of front lines in PWCG is fixed at certain dates.