What "gives" a clickable cockpit?

[Aap]

9 minutes ago, simfan2015 said:

With the 5-10 clickable areas I meant Arcade-like-gaming stuff such as Start-Engine, Close Canopy, Propellor, Eject, Cockpit lights, Stop-Engine

 

Yes, I understood what you meant. I just said that for me there would be no point of making these basic controls clickable. Different people can have different preferences of course, I personally just don't see any benefit of these controls being controllable with a mouse instead of pushing a button, if the rest is behind buttons only anyway. 

Speaking of which, I recall that in CloD I thought at first that because "Eject" was different from 1946 (you first had to blow off canopy and then eject, compared to just ejecting in 1946), I would use mouse for that instead. It turned out that it was not that practical, because it was not that easy to use the buttons with your mouse, when your plane was shaking wildly and you wanted to eject. What I found more practical, was using a Bf-110's fuel system by clicking, for example. So you could turn the knob of which main fuel tank you wanted to fill from reserve tank and then another knob to turn the fuel pump on, instead of remembering which button would move which knob to what position, but for the controls that were universal for all the planes, there was no specific benefit of using a mouse instead of pressing a button. 

[simfan2015]

JG77_Kemp, I fully agree ... no true benefit if not all the way.

In fact I truly question whether it will ever be done in this gaming engine and in fact I can easily live with that.

IMHO in DCS it is still not always easy even possible , for me, to locate any switch etc anyway while flying (if you don't have TrackIR, a 50+"-4K+ monitor, while plane shaking, turning ...)

[But YMMV].

[AndyJWest]

I've been flying X-Plane 11 for the last few weeks, and have found exactly the same thing happening there as with my previous clickpit experiences. I start off mapping the basic controls to joystick, keyboard etc, and then using clickables for the remainder. Until I start using them with any regularity, at which point they get mapped to a physical controller. From an ergonomic point of view, clickpits are simply too awkward to be useful for anything you need to use in a hurry. And the controls you don't need to use in a hurry tend to be the ones tucked away in awkward places, like hidden behind the yoke, or down the side of the seat. In a civilian-aviation sim like X-Plane, where you are generally in less of a hurry, and are likely to be fiddling with things like GPS, radio tuners and light switches, clickable controls become more or less essential unless you are going to build yourself a physical sim-pit, but actually using them in a way that doesn't rapidly get frustrating generally seems to involve setting up a separate view, with the instrument (GPS, radio panel etc) enlarged, and with TrackIR turned off so you can concentrate on what you are actually trying to do, rather than playing chase-the-pointer on small clickable areas with invisible borders. Which works, but detracts from the 'realism' that some people seem to ascribe to clickpits - and you need to use a physical device to change views anyway.

 

The simple fact is that clickpits are a poor design choice ergonomically. I don't know where they originated (possibly with Microsoft Flight Simulator, on a two-dimensional instrument panel?) but I'm fairly certain that they got introduced either because trying to map everything to a single joystick and keyboard got unwieldy, or because someone thought it would look good in adverts. Nobody in their right mind would design a control interface that way, for anything other than a simulation made for entertainment, and as far as simulation goes any 'realism' they offer disappears rapidly when you find how frustrating they can be.

 

That's my opinion, anyway. Maybe some people like the 'realism' of clickpits enough to ignore the frustrations, but I suspect they are a minority. If the developers had unlimited resources, they could cater to minorities more but they don't, and there are higher priorities.

[Enceladus828]

Hey guys, just because a flight sim has a clickable cockpit doesn't mean that one has give up using the keyboard and start using the mouse. For FSX/P3D, X-Plane, CloD, you can still use the keyboard, it's NOT mandatory to click things, it's an OPTION to click things. For FSX, sometimes I shut the engine(s) down realistically by clicking the mixture/ignition switch(es), sometimes I just push a button on the keyboard to shut the engine(s) down.

 

IMO, clickable cockpits are very helpful for engine controls (Mixture, Prop. pitch, Oil and water radiator, magnetos), trim, and programming the autopilot to maintain a heading, altitude, airspeed, but there's nothing saying that you can't use the keyboard.

[AndyJWest]

52 minutes ago, Novice-Flyer said:

Hey guys, just because a flight sim has a clickable cockpit doesn't mean that one has give up using the keyboard and start using the mouse. For FSX/P3D, X-Plane, CloD, you can still use the keyboard, it's NOT mandatory to click things, it's an OPTION to click things. For FSX, sometimes I shut the engine(s) down realistically by clicking the mixture/ignition switch(es), sometimes I just push a button on the keyboard to shut the engine(s) down.

 

IMO, clickable cockpits are very helpful for engine controls (Mixture, Prop. pitch, Oil and water radiator, magnetos), trim, and programming the autopilot to maintain a heading, altitude, airspeed, but there's nothing saying that you can't use the keyboard.

 

Is there a 'state the bleeding obvious and win a prize' competition going on? Because I can't otherwise see why anyone would think it necessary to post that  in a thread where multiple people have already been discussing how they map most regularly used controls to keyboard/joystick in sims where clickpits are available.

Edited September 28, 2019 by AndyJWest

[von_Michelstamm]

Rather than click pit, i’d prefer having on, off, and toggle bindings for every non-axis control. If you’re die hard enough to want to pump fuel and select magnetos, why aren’t you binding them to a custom button box or at least a second keyboard, something you can actually touch?

[Enceladus828]

Guys,

If it’s TOTALLY UNNECESSARY for there to be a clickable cockpit in IL-2 Great Battles, then was it TOTALLY UNNECESSARY for clickable cockpits to be implemented into DCS, IL-2 Cliffs of Dover, X-Plane, FSX, and all other real world/combat flight sims with clickable cockpits? For the upcoming Microsoft flight sim 2020, if a clickable cockpit is implemented, will it be unnecessary?

[AndyJWest]

If it is possible to operate all the features  of an aircraft simulation without using clickable cockpit functionality, then by definition said functionality is not necessary. As to whether it is a good idea to include such functionality, opinions are clearly divided. Some people like them. Others don't. They clearly take a great deal of effort to implement properly, and the decision as to whether such effort (which could instead be applied elsewhere) is worth applying lies, as always, with the developers in question. This remains true regardless of what developers of other simulations have chosen to do. IL-2 GB is an air combat simulator. It is not a DCS simulator. Or a Cliffs of Dover simulator. Or a simulation of any other software. Arguments as to whether clickable cockpit functionality should be included in IL-2 GB need to address the need (if any) for it in IL-2 GB, and to address the fact that the developers have limited resources. I would take arguments about such things being 'necessary' (rather than just wanted by some) more seriously if I saw some sort of explanation as to how the required resources were to be come by. Is there a proposal to make clickpits paid-for content? And if not, which other features/revisions to IL-2 GB should be put onto the back-burner while clickpits are added? If adding the feature is necessary, it is also necessary to explain how adding it is to be accomplished. 

Edited October 18, 2019 by AndyJWest

[LLv34_Flanker]

S! 

 

Clickable or not, has no effect really due the Captain Obvious's tip 2456585: Most needed mapped to a controller, rest behind Keys or clicking, if applicable. 

[-=[WH]=-Thudster]

I'm sorry I've missed out on this topic for so long.

 

Any flight sim in VR requires a clickable cockpit for immersion. This is a simple fact that isn't erased by contrarians intent on stopping change.

How exactly does having a Clickable Cockpit take away from folks who desire to continue with flat screen and keyboard/HOTAS controls?

It does not in anyway remove or degrade the legacy capabilities of that manner of choice in operating a simulation.

 

The advent of VR gloves or as is currently available PointCTRL gives you finger tip adjustment of controls in a "clickable" cockpit. Not to have the benefits of this in aircraft simulation, especially WWII combat, is simply an immersion killer for the player and severely limits the support by the sim for VR. A HOTAS system in a WWII cockpit in no way equals immersive more than being able to reach out and flip, tune, or turn a control in a more realistic manner.

 

There really is no argument on this topic except for those that maybe have no desire to gain deeper integration through VR and through an inclusive experience. Keyboards and Mice are never immersive. Striving for the best approach to virtual flying is what all enthusiasts should truly be attempting.

 

All of this negative diatribe (Such as the AndyJWest "Not Necessary" comment) towards VR and Clickable Cockpits sounds as though the developers and long time players don't believe how good VR is today at immersion, or how dominant it will be as it continues to mature. How far behind this curve do you really want to be? You think it isn't going to happen and this should be the last standing simulation rooted in 25 year old technology? 3DTV died a quick death, and so will VR?
Ridiculous and speaks of protectionism for aging capabilities in a sim.

Folks here denigrating the benefits of a clickable cockpit rather than lobbying for support of newer technology and the quickly arriving advanced controls capabilities sound out of touch with what's possible today. What IS completely necessary is remaining future relevant and carrying on with something people here clearly have a passion about. Not to do so is to cower in the corner and wait for the inevitable collapse, which would be a complete waste of the genius created in IL2.

Edited November 20, 2019 by -=[WH]=-Thudster

[AndyJWest]

-=[WH]=-Thudster, you seem not to understand the difference between fact and opinion, or the meaning of common English words. It is a fact that if something can be done without using something else, then the 'something else' isn't necessary. Because that is what 'necessary' means. Look it up in a dictionary...

Edited November 20, 2019 by AndyJWest

[dburne]

5 hours ago, -=[WH]=-Thudster said:

 

<snip>
Folks here denigrating the benefits of a clickable cockpit rather than lobbying for support of newer technology and the quickly arriving advanced controls capabilities sound out of touch with what's possible today. What IS completely necessary is remaining future relevant and carrying on with something people here clearly have a passion about. Not to do so is to cower in the corner and wait for the inevitable collapse, which would be a complete waste of the genius created in IL2.

 

The Devs of IL-2 GB have stated from the get go, and on several occasions, they do not intend to have clickable cockpits.

They appear to have done fairly well.

I enjoy the sim for what it has, not for what it will likely never have.

 

I do not have anything against them, and in fact enjoy them in another flight sim, but I also enjoy very much IL-2 for what it does bring to the table. 

And yes I fly strictly in VR, many many hours a week.

No one is killing my immersion.

 

 

 

Edited November 21, 2019 by dburne

[Gambit21]

No need for click-pits.

Devs on the right track with this one.

[Enceladus828]

1 hour ago, Gambit21 said:

No need for click-pits.

What about for FSX/Prepar 3D, X-Plane 11, DCS, and Microsoft 2020 (assuming it has a click pit)? Should 2020 not have clickable cockpits just because people on a WW2 combat flight sim feel clickable cockpits are not necessary and a waste of time and resources that could be used somewhere else.

2 hours ago, dburne said:

They appear to have done fairly well.

IL-2 GBs has done very well without a lot a of things and then when it’s added, people greatly enjoy it (most people).

Edited November 21, 2019 by Novice-Flyer
Forgot to add DCS

[Mitthrawnuruodo]

6 minutes ago, Novice-Flyer said:

What about for FSX/Prepar 3D, X-Plane 11 and Microsoft 2020 (assuming it has a click pit)?

 

Irrelevant. Those are different products with different purposes. Should XP/FS/P3D have ballistic damage models, pilot careers, scripted campaigns, AI units, etc?

[Gambit21]

26 minutes ago, Novice-Flyer said:

What about for FSX/Prepar 3D, X-Plane 11 and Microsoft 2020 (assuming it has a click pit)? Should 2020 not have clickable cockpits just because people on a WW2 combat flight sim feel clickable cockpits are not necessary and a waste of time and resources that could be used somewhere else.

 

Should car X not have an electric rear hatch because car Y doesn’t have an electric rear hatch?

 

That’s about how much sense I can make out of your question. 

[KG_S_Kalle_Kalutz82]

A clickable cockpit adds nothing.

I already have two hands ready for buttons on the Joystick or keyboard.

[THERION]

It has been discussed "ad absurdum" - clickpit for 747 OK, but no need for our beloved warbirds. Period.

[Rolling_Thunder]

There clearly is a "need" for some folk. To say there is no need for clickpits sounds incredibly selfish and shows an ignorance of your fellow players. The devs have said no clickpits but the devs have also said many things that have not stopped speculation. Given a choice of clickpit or a nazi jet bomber, I'll chose a clickpit. A nazi jet bomber isn't a necessity for me. 40 varieties of 109s or 190s isn't a necessity for me. I get they, clickpits, will never happen in this engine as the devs have said so. But c'mon, just because you dont want them doesn't mean there is no need for them for other folk.

[THERION]

15 minutes ago, Rolling_Thunder said:

But c'mon, just because you dont want them doesn't mean there is no need for them for other folk.

 

It's not that I don't want them - it's just simply pointless in this sim. We actually don't have any airplanes which would justify clickable cockpits.

The functions simulated at this state are very comprehensible - if you want to run the engine, you just press the key "E" and the rest is done
automatically. 

 

Of course, it would be a different story, if we'd need to do every step manually for the starting procedure. But now?

[Leon_Portier]

Personally I dont see the use for clickpits in planes without MFDs and board computers.

Back when I still could run dcs, I flew the F-5 Tiger (Jet without MFDs) without using the clickpit.

I´d like much more to use physical buttons or my keyboard to fly.

[Barnacles]

The way I see it, if you are writing using a word processor, do you type with the keyboard, or do you open character map and just click on the letters? I'm sure it's useful sometimes to do the latter, if you're using fancy diacritics or hieroglyphics, but if you're using the stuff you're familiar with, character map is a waste of time. That's kind of why click pits are redundant if you're only using a handful of actions.

Edited December 5, 2019 by 71st_AH_Barnacles

[AndyJWest]

1 hour ago, Rolling_Thunder said:

There clearly is a "need" for some folk. To say there is no need for clickpits sounds incredibly selfish and shows an ignorance of your fellow players. The devs have said no clickpits but the devs have also said many things that have not stopped speculation. Given a choice of clickpit or a nazi jet bomber, I'll chose a clickpit. A nazi jet bomber isn't a necessity for me. 40 varieties of 109s or 190s isn't a necessity for me. I get they, clickpits, will never happen in this engine as the devs have said so. But c'mon, just because you dont want them doesn't mean there is no need for them for other folk.

 

So expressing an opinion on a preference regarding what the developers do with their limited resources is selfish and ignorant is it? Fascinating...

 

[Rolling_Thunder]

1 hour ago, AndyJWest said:

 

So expressing an opinion on a preference regarding what the developers do with their limited resources is selfish and ignorant is it? Fascinating...

 

Woosh. 

[simfan2015]

3 hours ago, -=-THERION said:

The functions simulated at this state are very comprehensible - if you want to run the engine, you just press the key "E" and the rest is done
automatically. 

This is true if you want it to be. That is an option.

There are many controls that could better(?) be done thru a click-pit.

If I look at the potentially needed/available keyboard shortcuts ... it seems far from DCS, but IMHO still ... a bit overwelming (according to the sim mode one chooses).

The choice was initially made against those click-pits, but I, personally, would not object to have it nevertheless in a distant future.

I am a bit used to the DCS pits, so maybe I am biased, but would not call it 'crazy' to hope for it in IL-2.

But I agree with people here that there are probably more important features and improvements to long for !

 

Edited December 5, 2019 by simfan2015

[Enceladus828]

On 11/20/2019 at 6:56 PM, Mitthrawnuruodo said:

Should XP/FS/P3D have ballistic damage models

Well, no because unless something breaks off the plane in one of those games there's no need to have a detailed damage model. The main reason why things would break off a plane would be hitting a tree/building, mid-air collision, over stressing the air frame; in any case there's very little hope that you will survive and land safely. But I mean X-Plane/FSX are real world flight simulators and have, if not most have clickable cockpits, while the IL-2 series, War Thunder, etc. are combat flight simulators. DCS and CloD are the only CFS that I know of that have clickable cockpits. They're still flight simulators where you operate the systems, controls of an airplane. It's just the games have different purposes.

 

With VR especially, as from my experience, it's somewhat like a blind person flying when playing a game without a clickable cockpit because occasionally you have to feel around for everything on your keyboard to do basic things. Same goes with people who haven't tried VR, you have to assign Ctrl + ? to do this , Shift + ? to do this, Ctrl + Shift + ? to do this and have a GIANT keyboard map.

 

Here's a question: if one was teleported back in time into the cockpit of a plane that they frequently fly on IL-2 GBs, would you the engine startup procedure just by playing IL-2 GBs?

 

I am aware that the devs have limited resources and while I would 100% like to see much more important things added to the game, I think it's wrong to just say that clickable cockpits are unnecessary and should not be added to the game. BTW Team Fusion also has limited resources and yet they're adding click pits to their planes.

 

Final question: Should Microsoft Flight sim 2020 have clickable cockpits?

Edited December 5, 2019 by Novice-Flyer

[Legioneod]

Click pits would be nice to have, it adds a nice level of immersion. At the same time I don’t currently see a “need” for them until il2 gets more advanced systems modeling like DCS.

 

Im all for having them as an option, not sure why anyone would say no to having options.

[AndyJWest]

17 minutes ago, Novice-Flyer said:

Final question: Should Microsoft Flight sim 2020 have clickable cockpits?

 

It will. But one thing I can say for sure. If clickpits hadn't been invented, and MIcrosoft were introducing them for the first time in their new sim, the forums would be full of people dismissing them as a gimmick. Ergonomically they are a very poor concept, and nobody in their right mind would design a control interface like that for anything but a game.  Sadly though, bad design decisions made early in the lifetime of things can often outlast the things themselves - see the history of the keyboard layout for another example of poor ergonomics in an interface long outliving the rationale that justified its initial introduction.

[dburne]

I enjoy the click pits in DCS, much like I enjoy not having them with this sim.

Click pits are not what makes or breaks a flight sim for me.

I fly IL-2 GB in VR with all my needed functions assigned to HOTAS and never have need to reach for keyboard.

Only time I do is to press escape to exit the game.

[LukeFF]

On 6/6/2018 at 10:17 AM, LukeFF said:

 

 

 

 

[303_Bies]

1) Clickable cockpits have no disadvantages compared to non-clickable ones from the point of veiew of a player, because you can assign controls and still use them 100% exactly as we do it in IL-2: GB if you prefer.

The only disadvantage is from the point of view of development: clickable cockpits have to include more corelations and systems and modeling them is far more time consuming so you can make less planes in the same amount of time and this is important for company like 777. So i understand their choice.

 

2) For planes more modern than Korean War period clickable cockpits are mandatory if we want any reasonable level of realism. Without that you would have to bind literally hundreds of controls and memorize shortcuts for each key on the keyboard, with Shift, Control and Alt. I.e. to bind just buttons of three MFDs for the Hornet you would need to memorize 3x20 buttons = 120 buttons + brightness, contrast, day/night to just use MFDs alone... Good luck trying. ?

That's why low fidelity planes of FC3 are harder to operate than clickable full fidelity ones despite FC3 having far less systems modeled. Clicking on button with the clear name and distinct shape in the cockpit is easy. Memorizing hundreds of "Alt+Shift+J" is not.

 

3) When it comes to WWI and even WWII planes clicable cockpits are nice but not mandatory. You can memorize 30-40 keys. But noone would memorize 200-300 different key combinations for the Hornet.

 

4) When it comes to WWI WWII - for me - clickable cockpits are just a proof or sign of high fidelity in depth modeling of the plane, not necessity.

Edited February 12, 2020 by Bies

[=TBAS=Sshadow14]

imho key bindings and buttons on throttle or stick is more realistic (you are reaching out and pressing a button or flipping a switch)
Versus with a mouses looking on screen what button to press and maybe your hand moves 1cm forward and 1cm left lol then click

 

[Enceladus828]

On 8/5/2019 at 7:06 AM, AndyJWest said:

The simple fact is that clickpits are a poor design choice ergonomically.

AndyJWest, at some point you're going to have to understand that cockpits in planes, even today are a giant complex of systems, switches, etc. that have to be adjusted/changed quite frequently throughout a flight. Some grown adults here who have no intention of being a real world pilot and/or have past that point in life, treat games like FSX/P3D, X-Plane 11, etc. as mere a toy. While there are others grown adults who ARE pilots that treat games like FSX/P3D, X-Plane 11 and quite possibly other flight sims as the REAL World where they adjust these systems, switches, etc. just as they do in the real world.

Why would someone want to assign key commands to do these things on X-Plane 11, MFS?: Adjusting the DG, Autopilot settings like adjusting Airspeed, Heading, and Altitude hold, Radio and Nav Comms, other instrument adjustments, etc.

 

To me the discussion of whether or not to add click pits in this game is pretty much the same as the use of an autopilot on a real plane.

 

While I 100% firmly feel that clickable cockpits are of a lower priority in this game and the resources could pretty much well be used to implement much more important things, I still feel that at some point clickable cockpits should be added.

 

On 8/5/2019 at 7:06 AM, AndyJWest said:

I don't know where they originated (possibly with Microsoft Flight Simulator, on a two-dimensional instrument panel?)

According to this they were introduced in 1992 for the game Shuttle. https://youtu.be/Q0xZlCv6CYs

 

[AndyJWest]

Novice-Flyer, at some point you are going to have to understand that grown adults don't post endless repetitive posts about the same subject time and time again while entirely ignoring the point of the 5-month-old post they have just quoted from. 

Edited December 16, 2019 by AndyJWest

[Gambit21]

13 minutes ago, Novice-Flyer said:

AndyJWest, at some point you're going to have to understand that cockpits in planes, even today are a giant complex of systems, switches, etc. that have to be adjusted/changed quite frequently throughout a flight. Some grown adults here who have no intention of being a real world pilot and/or have past that point in life, treat games like FSX/P3D, X-Plane 11, etc. as mere a toy. While there are others grown adults who ARE pilots that treat games like FSX/P3D, X-Plane 11 and quite possibly other flight sims as the REAL World where they adjust these systems, switches, etc. just as they do in the real world.

Why would someone want to assign key commands to do these things on X-Plane 11, MFS?: Adjusting the DG, Autopilot settings like adjusting Airspeed, Heading, and Altitude hold, Radio and Nav Comms, other instrument adjustments, etc.

 

To me the discussion of whether or not to add click pits in this game is pretty much the same as the use of an autopilot on a real plane.

 

While I 100% firmly feel that clickable cockpits are of a lower priority in this game and the resources could pretty much well be used to implement much more important things, I still feel that at some point clickable cockpits should be added.

 

According to this they were introduced in 1992 for the game Shuttle. https://youtu.be/Q0xZlCv6CYs

 

 

 

No