150 octane fuel for the 2nd TAF on the continent

[Talon_]

13 minutes ago, VO101Kurfurst said:

 

Well the November plan talks of 35 Spitfire Squadrons - 25 IX, 5 XVI, and 5 XIV. 

 

I wonder where those 11 Squadrons disappeared suddenly.

 

 

Who knows?

 

I guess the 30 Spitfire IX/XVI squadrons are somehow mysteriously unaccounted for - oh wait:

 

 

30 Spitfire IX/XVI squadrons. However of course many had converted away from Spitfire IX/XVI by the time of 150 octane fuel or simply gone home.

 

 

 

23 IX/XVI not including photo recon units by the end of our Campaign.

 

 

13 minutes ago, VO101Kurfurst said:

 

I think we can state with a good degree of certainty that a small fraction of the 2nd TAF Spitfire squadrons were using 150 grade fuel in January - February 1945 and the rest still used +18 with 130 grade. This seems logical as the the remaining stocks had to be used up. 

 

3

 

Why use it up? It was still in use by 2TAF's Mosquitos, Wellingtons, Bostons, Mitchells and Austers, flying from the bomber airfields.

Edited August 16, 2018 by Talon_

[MiloMorai]

During the Battle of Britain it was thought that around 1/2 million gal of 100 fuel would be needed. Consumption didn't come near to that number. The 15,000 is an estimate of what would be required. Better to over estimate than under estimate.

[Quinte]

17 minutes ago, Talon_ said:

Why use it up? It was still in use by 2TAF's Mosquitos, Wellingtons, Bostons, Mitchells and Austers, flying from the bomber airfields.

And Tiffies and Tempests.

[Talon_]

1 minute ago, Quinte said:

And Tiffies and Tempests.

 

Not so sure on this one. Clostermann's book mentions +13lbs on 150 grade and I have Typhoon accounts on 150 grade. Doesn't change the fact that the two fuels were used alongside one another for the duration of 2TAF's war on the Continent though. Nothing to "use up" when you're taking delivery of both ?

Edited August 16, 2018 by Talon_

[MiloMorai]

2 hours ago, VO101Kurfurst said:

Its hard to see what would be unhistorical about Spitfire IXLFs running at +18 lbs, since this was most of them have been using between September 1944 - March 1945. They were the mainstay fighters of the 2nd TAF, along with the Typhoon.

 

Oddly enough, I cannot see people crying for Typhoons. They do not seem to miss the what was the most numerous aircraft of the 2nd TAF. Perhaps because performance was not so hot (even though I think it would be a good matchup with the A-8) .

 

What a select few Allied fliers wish for is a, higher boost versions of Spitfires used by a handful of Squadrons near the timeframe's end b, the lowest boost versions of Axis fighters possible. 

 

Its easy to see that the motivation is not historical accuracy at all. 

 

Says the person who has wanted 1.98ata Bf109K-4s for years.??

[Quinte]

7 minutes ago, Talon_ said:

Clostermann's book mentions +13lbs on 150 grade

In my edition he mentions 130. But then it's riddled with inaccuracies and typos. I'd check in my original edition, but I'm pretty sure no mention of it is made in that one. Plus it's 800km from home.

 

Edit: since the Sabre could take either with no mods, I assume that late in the war, Tiffies parked on airfields shared with Spits could use 150 for convenience purposes?

Edited August 16, 2018 by Quinte

[Talon_]

2 hours ago, VO101Kurfurst said:

 

Oddly enough, I cannot see people crying for Typhoons. They do not seem to miss the what was the most numerous aircraft of the 2nd TAF

 

This sentence shows that a lot of information @VO101Kurfurst posts, he just makes up from his head.

 

If he had done any research he would have access to the same numbers I posted in the top of this page, which show the Typhoon never outnumbered the Spitfire on the Continent.

 

His posts are guesses and thoughts, not based on data or documents.

6 minutes ago, Quinte said:

Edit: since the Sabre could take either with no mods, I assume that late in the war, Tiffies parked on airfields shared with Spits could use 150 for convenience purposes?

 

The Tempest Wing mostly shared airfields with Typhoon Wings which I believe did see significant 150 grade fuel usage anyway based on pilot accounts.

[Quinte]

Kinda makes sense, as he mentions a few times the need to rev up to 3000rpm or so frequently during taxiing... consistent with 150 fuel usage, even though it's probably consistent with Sabre usage anyway.

[Kurfurst]

Apparently the most powerful argument so far to the 'all Spitfires were using on 150 grade fuel' thesis is that they did not consume nowhere near the amount that was required to run all Spitfires on 150 grade fuel.

[Talon_]

8 minutes ago, VO101Kurfurst said:

Apparently the most powerful argument so far to the 'all Spitfires were using on 150 grade fuel' thesis is that they did not consume nowhere near the amount that was required to run all Spitfires on 150 grade fuel.

 

Rubbish. 180 hours per aircraft in April including all 800 fighter bombers and fighters. Just the 318 Merlin & Packard Merlin Spitfires pushes this to around 400 hours per aircraft, which is 13.3 hours per day.

Edited August 16, 2018 by Talon_

[Kurfurst]

Apparently it is also believed in the same circles that Spitfires were flying 13 hours a day on average. All day, every day.

[MiloMorai]

At least it shows that 150 was being used unlike the fantasy 1.98ata of the Bf109K-4.

[Talon_]

8 minutes ago, VO101Kurfurst said:

Apparently it is also believed in the same circles that Spitfires were flying 13 hours a day on average. All day, every day.

 

 

What's your point here?

 

That's how much fuel is being burned according to consumption figures you posted. I guess not only the Spitfires got 150 octane but so did the other 2TAF planes too.

 

Your most recent two posts as shown in this screenshot directly contradict one another.

 

 

So which is it? Was not enough 150 grade burned for the Spitfires, or too much?

Edited August 16, 2018 by Talon_

[Kurfurst]

In short you simply do not know and it is wishful guessing.

[Talon_]

Just now, VO101Kurfurst said:

In short you simply do not know and it is wishful guessing.

 

Yes, we do not know how many of 2TAF planes were using 150 grade fuel. Here's what we do know:

 

Enough 150 grade fuel was burned to keep all 300 Spitfires flying for 13 hours a day every day, OR

Enough 150 grade fuel was burned to keep all 800 2TAF fighters and fighter bombers flying for 6 hours per day, every day.

 

Of those, it seems that option 2 is certainly most likely.

3 hours ago, VO101Kurfurst said:

 

Oddly enough, I cannot see people crying for Typhoons. They do not seem to miss the what was the most numerous aircraft of the 2nd TAF.

 

This is what wishful guessing looks like.

[Quinte]

1 minute ago, VO101Kurfurst said:

In short you simply do not know and it is wishful guessing.

You're developing an argument the way you'd expect from a flat earth believer or something. "More fuel is consumed than what my conservative estimate says? I don't like 150 fuel, so it must means less fuel was consume than my conservative estimate says, since it doesn't fall exactly on the estimate that other guys said."

[Kurfurst]

There are two distinct possibilities.

 

British staff and logistics officers responsible of the 2nd TAF had no idea how much fuel is needed to keep the force supplied with the fuel they planned to introduce to 35 Spitfire Squadrons, or 

 

Talon has no idea how much fuel is needed to keep the force supplied with the fuel and how many Spitfire Squadrons actually used it.

 

Of those, it seems that option 2 is certainly most likely.

[Talon_]

Just now, VO101Kurfurst said:

There are two distinct possibilities.

 

British staff and logistics officers responsible of the 2nd TAF had no idea how much fuel is needed to keep the force supplied with the fuel they planned to introduce to 35 Spitfire Squadrons, or 

 

Talon has no idea how much fuel is needed to keep the force supplied with the fuel and how many Spitfire Squadrons actually used it.

 

Of those, it seems that option 2 is certainly most likely.

 

Why are you still talking about estimates?

 

My figures are based on the confirmed amount burned that you posted. The number that is much smaller than the estimate. That's what my calculations are based on.

 

Are you trying to obfuscate this?

[Kurfurst]

11 minutes ago, Quinte said:

You're developing an argument the way you'd expect from a flat earth believer or something. "More fuel is consumed than what my conservative estimate says? I don't like 150 fuel, so it must means less fuel was consume than my conservative estimate says, since it doesn't fall exactly on the estimate that other guys said."

 

Its odd because you are the one maintaining a nonsensical and irrational position that just as many Squadrons could be operated on 2000 tons of fuel as on 15 000. If there is any flat earth believe, I fear it is not me. I guess you are fast entering a state of belief where facts are becoming entirely irrelevant and the only thing that matters is the fairy tale you wish to believe in.

 

Again, the issue you need to address:

 

Logistics of the 2nd TAF predicted that 15 000 tons of fuel per month is required to support 35 Spitfire Squadrons operating at 150 grade fuel.

 

In contrast, they consumed 2000 tons in January and February (cc. 15%), 7000 tons in March, and 12 000 in April.

Edited August 16, 2018 by VO101Kurfurst

[Talon_]

9 minutes ago, VO101Kurfurst said:

 facts are becoming entirely irrelevant

 

Deeply ironic post. Barbi, what was the most numerous fighter on the continent in 2TAF service?

A: the Spitfire

B: the Typhoon

 

 

9 minutes ago, VO101Kurfurst said:

Logistics of the 2nd TAF predicted that 15 000 tons of fuel per month is required to support 35 Spitfire Squadrons operating at 150 grade fuel.

 

In contrast, they consumed 2000 tons in January and February (cc. 15%), 7000 tons in March, and 12 000 in April.

 

Easy. The Allied progress from airfield to airfield was three times faster than expected, meaning they were much closer to the frontline and shorter transit times resulted. Not only that but only 26 Spitfire squadrons were operational by the introduction of the fuel. Next question.

Edited August 16, 2018 by Talon_

[MiloMorai]

He likes to ignore facts that do fit his fantasy world Talon.

[SYN_Haashashin]

Enough. Seems some people just ignored me.

 

Locked. PMs will be sent.

 

Haash