150 octane fuel for the 2nd TAF on the continent

[Willy__]

Much of the problems that the russians(or british, or german aswell) had with their engines isnt modelled in the game at all. Should I suppose that we wont get the 262 engines instantenous exposions then.....

[Talisman]

Thanks for posting such useful information on this thread folks.

 

Also, just a short note to say that sometimes people can post in a way that winds people up so that threads get closed down.  Lets not let that happen here.

I sometimes think that perhaps some people might aim to try and get a thread closed down, but I hope my thoughts are wrong about that.

 

P.S.  It might be nice if we can stay on topic and not go on about Axis aircraft.

 

Happy landings,

 

Talisman

Edited August 15, 2018 by 56RAF_Talisman

[sevenless]

A lot of information, both on late war Spitfire XIV action, fuel situation etc. but also some interesting information about the state of affairs for the german fighters Feb45-VE-Day can be found here:

 

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spit14v109.html

[Kurfurst]

Since the cat got the tounge of Paingod ever since the posting of even more undisputable evidence on the use 1,98 ata by several Luftwaffe wings at the time, lets call it a day and switch back to Octane Fluff, the use of 150 grade fuel in the only known 2nd TAF unit that is known to have used it, No. 126 Wing.

 

Luckily, Monty Berger wrote an absolutely fascinating book, “Invasion Without Tears’ about their adventures, and it is a highly recommended read and well written. In his book, he gives a great account of the general conditions that 126 Wing had to contend with in 1945 - bad and unreliable fuel, lack of serviceable Spitfires, poor airfiled conditions and slow delivery of replacement aircraft.

 

It is a highly interesting read for everyone interested in actual history, rather than fanboy fantasies that grow on discussion forums.

 

 

 

[Talon_]

Thanks for confirming 150-octane fuel was indeed used on the continent by 2TAF @VO101Kurfurst - I look forward to its inclusion in the game on the basis that its only previous detractor has now found sources completely contradicting his standpoint!

 

Funny that a quick check against the database shows all of the squadrons mentioned to be equipped with Spitfire XVIs by the late war - a plane with a Merlin 266 that was known to suffer faults with 150 grade fuel. Good thing we don't have that plane in game!

10 minutes ago, VO101Kurfurst said:

 the only known 2nd TAF unit that is known to have used it, No. 126 Wing.

 

If you ignore the pilot accounts from 144 wing and 127 wing ? 

Edited August 15, 2018 by Talon_

[MiloMorai]

Well if one doesn't follow procedure when using 150 fuel, then problems will occur. One of the procedures was to run up the engine prior to take off when using 150 fuel. Considering the unit  mentioned had just been using 130 fuel, then the run up was not done.

 

P-51s don't seem to have many problems using 150 fuel.

 

As for doctoring documents, http://www.kurfurst.org/Engine/Boostclearances/605D_clearance198.html  has III./JG27 flying G-10s, yet the document posted in a previous post has III./JG27  flying K-4s.?

 

2 TAF had 26 squadrons of Spitfires with an establishment of 468 a/c of which 308 were available with crew on Jan 4 1945. 2 Squadrons were on other duties and many had been destroyed or made u/s a few days earlier during Bodenplatte.

 

[PainGod85]

1 hour ago, MiloMorai said:

Well if one doesn't follow procedure when using 150 fuel, then problems will occur. One of the procedures was to run up the engine prior to take off when using 150 fuel. Considering the unit  mentioned had just been using 130 fuel, then the run up was not done.

 

P-51s don't seem to have many problems using 150 fuel.

 

As for doctoring documents, http://www.kurfurst.org/Engine/Boostclearances/605D_clearance198.html  has III./JG27 flying G-10s, yet the document posted in a previous post has III./JG27  flying K-4s.?

 

2 TAF had 26 squadrons of Spitfires with an establishment of 468 a/c of which 308 were available with crew on Jan 4 1945. 2 Squadrons were on other duties and many had been destroyed or made u/s a few days earlier during Bodenplatte.

 

 

I can do you one better:

 

http://www.kurfurst.atw.hu/articles/MW_KvsXIV.htm

 

Here it's still G-10s.

NVM, I actually misread and thought you were posting doctored content.

Edited August 16, 2018 by PainGod85

[Kurfurst]

15 hours ago, PainGod85 said:

 

Indeed. Not even this much is available for the German 1.98 ATA fairytale.

 

 

This reminds me of confabulation, a condition of the mind. When you confront a confabulating subject's mind with reality, a  confabulated mind is compelled to replace reality with a bizarre tale. 

 

In this case, from a condition of full denial that any evidence exists at all,, upon injecting a dose of reality…

 

 

7 hours ago, PainGod85 said:

NVM, I actually misread and thought you were posting doctored content.

 

… the previous confabulation ( 'there is no evidence at all'), triggered by a very real experience of evidence, in denial of the experienced reality, the confabulation is altered and is replaced by another denial - 'it must be doctored evidence so it still doesn't exist in my mind'. 

 

Let's confront the confabulation with more reality and see what the mind may come up yet.

 

 

[Quinte]

Are we still having this discussion, for real?

Kurfurst, you're off-topic, as per usual.

There is no reasonable doubt that 2nd TAF ended up using 150 octane fuel on the continent, and was doing so by january 45. It was, at least initially, not the same 150 octane fuel the US 8thAF used for its continent-based aircrafts, the RAF using it with 1T etheline dibromide, the US with 1.5T etheline dibromide.

The 9th AF requested 150 octane fuel and was denied that request on the 17th November 44.

The 8th AF requested 150 octane fuel for its aircrafts on the continent and was denied that request on the 5th of february 45. The reason for that denial being that opening a third supply line of aviation fuel would be extremely hard to implement and maintain, and the costs and difficulties would largely outweight the advantages of using 150 octane fuel. In fact, it was even added that given the poor state of the Luftwaffe by that point, US fighters were not in any dire need to gain performance against german props, while the differential against jets was so large that even the use of 150 octane fuel would not change much.

 

Edit: note that this was the HQ's argument, and that if both AFs asked for 150 octane fuel, they definitely didn't feel that way.

 

Edited August 16, 2018 by Quinte

[Kurfurst]

Its hardly off topic since the OP wishes to discuss it at every opportunity, including this thread, but there are others. I see no harm if his wish is obliged and his fanciful claims are contrasted with incontroversible historical evidence. 

 

Now as for the 150 octane use by the 2nd TAF, I think a fair case can be made for its use by 126 Wing by late February 1945, albeit it must be noted that its introduction was quite troublesome due to the spark plug fouling issues and the tendency of the engine to cut out in flight. Pilots were much relieved when they got rid of the thing.

[Cpt_Siddy]

I love the general attitude of "If it is anything 1941-1943, we want muh historical accuracy". And when it is 1944-1945, "muh game balance, muh game balance".

 

All coming only from allied players, ofc :^)   We all know that axis players want only what is best for them game    :  ^  ) 

[Kurfurst]

Its hard to see what would be unhistorical about Spitfire IXLFs running at +18 lbs, since this was most of them have been using between September 1944 - March 1945. They were the mainstay fighters of the 2nd TAF, along with the Typhoon.

 

Oddly enough, I cannot see people crying for Typhoons. They do not seem to miss the what was the most numerous aircraft of the 2nd TAF. Perhaps because performance was not so hot (even though I think it would be a good matchup with the A-8) .

 

What a select few Allied fliers wish for is a, higher boost versions of Spitfires used by a handful of Squadrons near the timeframe's end b, the lowest boost versions of Axis fighters possible. 

 

Its easy to see that the motivation is not historical accuracy at all. 

Edited August 16, 2018 by VO101Kurfurst

[Talon_]

Time to ignore the pilot accounts from 127 and 144 Wings again Barbi ?

[Cpt_Siddy]

1 hour ago, VO101Kurfurst said:

Its hard to see what would be unhistorical about Spitfire IXLFs running at +18 lbs, since this was most of them have been using between September 1944 - March 1945. They were the mainstay fighters of the 2nd TAF, along with the Typhoon.

 

Oddly enough, I cannot see people crying for Typhoons. They do not seem to miss the What a select few Allied fliers wish for is a, higher boost versions of Spitfires used by a handful of Squadrons near the timeframe's end b, the lowest boost versions of Axis fighters possible. 

 

Its easy to see that the motivation is not historical accuracy at all. 

 

 

Well, truth to be told, at the point the boden-splat-te took place, Axis air force was in tatters, and any new plane models they have fall well under 1000 planes production category. Many of which were made in low hundreds. 

 

And because last 3 years were colored by Axis crying river Rhine over the fact that VVS got some versions of planes that were mainly field mods or low production runs (LAGG-3 23mm debate), this is the hole axist have dug themselves in to. 

 

You can argue by using the low production numbers argument to justify ONLY the most common and available plane configurations for axis in BoB for the time. Meaning any planes or mods that was made under, say 200, is instantly disqualified. 

 

So, G-6 and some G-14 for you, thats all. 

 

Secondly, 150 octane fuel availability in many cases is moot point because it can be confirmed by looking what engine configurations the planes were running. You cannot run the 130 oct rated fuel on engine that has its settings turned for 150 oct fuel. You will run in to knock issues. So best way to show if 150 oct fuel was indeed used is to dig trough engine maintenance logs, not the manuals. 

 

/edit, messed octanes 

Edited August 16, 2018 by Cpt_Siddy

[Quinte]

7 minutes ago, VO101Kurfurst said:

Its hard to see what would be unhistorical about Spitfire IXLFs running at +18 lbs, since this was most of them have been using between September 1944 - March 1945. They were the mainstay fighters of the 2nd TAF, along with the Typhoon.

It's not. In fact, you simply choose to repeat, again and again, that they were not running on 150 octane fuel, or limiting that to some canadian wing, when all eveidence shows all spitfires from 2nd TAF were using 150 octane from february onwards (and some earlier).

9 minutes ago, VO101Kurfurst said:

Oddly enough, I cannot see people crying for Typhoons. They do not seem to miss the what was the most numerous aircraft of the 2nd TAF. Perhaps because performance was not so hot (even though I think it would be a good matchup with the A-8) .

You don't see them because you're not looking hard enough, I guess. Because they do.

 

10 minutes ago, VO101Kurfurst said:

What a select few Allied fliers wish for is a, higher boost versions of Spitfires used by a handful of Squadrons near the timeframe's end b, the lowest boost versions of Axis fighters possible. 

German boost levels are irrelevant to the discussion at hand. This is an entirely independant issue.

 

10 minutes ago, VO101Kurfurst said:

Its easy to see that the motivation is not historical accuracy at all. 

Please.

[Talon_]

Despite constant protestations there are now more users than ever disbelieving your misinformation on this topic @VO101Kurfurst

 

Have you considered that you might be harming your position more than helping?

[Kurfurst]

Just now, Cpt_Siddy said:

 

 

Well, truth to be told, at the point the boden-splat-te took place, Axis air force was in tatters, and any new plane models they have fall well under 1000 planes production category. Many of which were made in low hundreds. 

 

You might want to check that statement vs. the actual strenghts reported in December .

 

I cannot recall any sub 1000 production either, unless you speak of things like Do 335, Ta 152 etc. As for the others, they were very common. By the end of January, 2/3s of the operational 109s were either G-14/AS, G-10 or K-4s. G-14s run at about 4000 produced IIRC, G-10s production was about 2600, K-4 at 1600, D-9 at 1800, and the Me 262 was around 1400. K-4s and G-10s (which were essentially G/K hybrids) and alone were produced in numbers equal to the entire IXLF production of two years, i.e. cca. 4000. 

 

Just now, Cpt_Siddy said:

 

And because last 3 years were colored by Axis crying river Rhine over the fact that VVS got some versions of planes that were mainly field mods or low production runs (LAGG-3 23mm debate), this is the hole axist have dug themselves in to. 

 

You can argue by using the low production numbers argument to justify ONLY the most common and available planes for axis in BoB for the time. Meaning any plane that was made under, say 200, is instantly disqualified. 

 

So, G-6 and some G-14 for you, thats all. 

 

Again if you check the actual strenght reports, there were miniscule amount of G-6s around - about 50 from well over 2000 SE fighters.. I don't recall any have been lost during Bodenplatte (or there were very few).

 

So the parallel with VVS types simply does not exists.

 

In late 1944, the 2nd TAF was mainly employing Typhoons and Spitfire IXLFs on the Continent.

 

The Luftwaffe (on all fronts) had a mix of types G-14s, G-14/AS, G-10s, K-4s and A-8/A-9/D-9 in the 190 line, plus a number of 262s. The most numerous were the G-14 and the A-8, but the other were not much behind and were rapidly increasing in numbers. Considering that the G-14/AS, G-10 and K-4 are pretty similar (with 550-600 on strenght of these in early December), as is the A-8 and A-9 (cc. 800-850 in December), and the rest were G-14s (700-750 of them), plus to balance of D-9s (growing from 124 to 238 in December) I think we actually have a very good representation, especially considering the more obsolate LW types were more likely to be found in Italy or the Eastern Front - save for the absence of the Typhoon. 

 

Just now, Cpt_Siddy said:

 

Secondly, 150 octane fuel availability in many cases is moot point because it can be confirmed by looking what engine configurations the planes were running. You cannot run the 130 oct rated fuel on engine that has its settings turned for 150 oct. You will run in to knock issues. So best way to show if 150 oct fuel was indeed used is to dig trough engine maintenance logs, not the manuals. 

 

Good luck checking individual engine maintance logs, if they still exists.. :/ Now as for running 130 octane fuel, its quite easy - as long as you do not advance the throttle to over +18, there should be no trouble. 

19 minutes ago, Quinte said:

It's not. In fact, you simply choose to repeat, again and again, that they were not running on 150 octane fuel, or limiting that to some canadian wing, when all eveidence shows all spitfires from 2nd TAF were using 150 octane from february onwards (and some earlier).

 

Can you post this evidence to units outside 'this Canadian wing' or its a case of wishful thinking again? Now I can see logbooks of 2 additional Squadrons outside No 126 Wing but this gives what? Five Squadrons? Six, maybe? Out of what, 30-35?

 

19 minutes ago, Quinte said:

You don't see them because you're not looking hard enough, I guess. Because they do.

 

Well certainly I cannot see any notion here to prioritize the development of a Typhoon over any Wishfire 25. Do you?

 

19 minutes ago, Quinte said:

 

German boost levels are irrelevant to the discussion at hand. This is an entirely independant issue.

 

I tend to agree with that but Talonbarbi, Paingod, Marsh, Talisman certainly sees the issue deeply intertwined and unseparable. Maybe take it up to them.

 

19 minutes ago, Quinte said:

 

Please.

 

Just stating the facts. Thing is that the most vocal minority of Allied players have no interest in getting a historical representation at all. They just want all the advantage possible to trash their opponents online. 

[LeLv76_Erkki]

I think its by now well established that Spitfire IXes(the plane we happen to have in game) did make wide use 150 oct fuel in early 1945. Whether this was by 2nd TAF units in the continent or mostly by units in England, is irrelevant.

 

If and when it is introduced as a modification, it will be up to mission makes to accordingly allow or block it depending on the wanted plane balance or historical availability in the created scenario. This will allow us to create Circus/Rhubarb operations over Belgium and Netherlands in 1943 and spring/summer 1944 against 109 G-6, 190 A-5, A-8, later 1944 scenarios against later German types, as well as early 1945 scenarios with 150 oct fuel. Somewhat related to this, I also hope the G-6 will get DB605AS, Erla Haube and maybe even MW50(I believe some 300-ish kits were delivered before G-14 entered production) as modifications.

 

Glancing my magic ball, it says people will fly dogfight at the deck in their Spitfires anyway, and I will be alone in the P-47 or P-51. Again.

Edited August 16, 2018 by LeLv76_Erkki

[Talon_]

55 minutes ago, VO101Kurfurst said:

Now as for the 150 octane use by the 2nd TAF, I think a fair case can be made for its use by 126 Wing by late February 1945, albeit it must be noted that its introduction was quite troublesome due to the spark plug fouling issues and the tendency of the engine to cut out in flight. Pilots were much relieved when they got rid of the thing.

 

Tell me Barbi, do we model such failures on any other aircraft in IL-2 Great Battles?

[unreasonable]

There have been plenty of people asking if we can have the Typhoon.  It was the principal dedicated CAS support aircraft of the NW Europe campaign for the allies, much more important to this theatre than the P-38.  Not everyone is obsessed with the most obscure, rare, highest performance variants.

[Quinte]

30 minutes ago, VO101Kurfurst said:

Can you post this evidence to units outside 'this Canadian wing' or its a case of wishful thinking again? Now I can see logbooks of 2 additional Squadrons outside No 126 Wing but this gives what? Five Squadrons? Six, maybe? Out of what, 30-35?

That's the thing, though, right? You can see logbooks from 2 squadrons from other wings, but decide against all logic that those squadrons must have been the only ones in their wings to be given 150 octane fuel. Just because, you know, the brits just love their logistical nightmares and so they're gonna bring two kinds of fuel to the same airfield, for the same kind of fighter.

 

Obviously, the brits were shipping about 15000 tons of 150 octane fuel to the 2nd TAF, but the were just keeping it to cut their tea, and while that was almost as much as what the US VIII Fighter command was using in the UK, somehow it was only used to power one wing of spittys on the continent? In fact, they opened an entirely new line of supply just for that one wing?

 

The US generals were explicitly stating that "the RAF on the continent is using 150 octane fuel", subtly omitting to add that it was in fact just one wing?

 

That all seems a bit far fetched, don't you think?

 

[Talon_]

47 minutes ago, VO101Kurfurst said:

ou might want to check that statement vs. the actual strenghts reported in December .

 

Numbers debunked previously.

5 minutes ago, Quinte said:

subtly omitting to add that it was in fact just one wing?

 

 

"How come everyone in 83 and 84 groups is getting the fuel and we're not?" - Mosquito commander, 85 group, January 1945

Edited August 16, 2018 by Talon_

[Kurfurst]

2 minutes ago, Quinte said:

That's the thing, though, right? You can see logbooks from 2 squadrons from other wings, but decide against all logic that those squadrons must have been the only ones in their wings to be given 150 octane fuel. Just because, you know, the brits just love their logistical nightmares and so they're gonna bring two kinds of fuel to the same airfield, for the same kind of fighter.

 

Obviously, the brits were shipping about 15000 tons of 150 octane fuel to the 2nd TAF, but the were just keeping it to cut their tea, and while that was almost as much as what the US VIII Fighter command was using in the UK, somehow it was only used to power one wing of spittys on the continent? In fact, they opened an entirely new line of supply just for that one wing?

 

The US generals were explicitly stating that "the RAF on the continent is using 150 octane fuel", subtly omitting to add that it was in fact just one wing?

 

That all seems a bit far fetched, don't you think?

 

 

So, this is 'all the evidence'? Circumstantial at best.

 

There was indeed an intention to run all Spittie units on 150 grade and they estimated that this would need about 15 000 tons a month.

You mix that number up with shipments. Shipment s not consumption.

 

Now, when I check this against consumption of 150 grade in NW Europe, which more or less equal the 2nd TAF we get this.

 

about 2000 tons of 150 grade consumed in January against a predicted requirement of 15 000 tons for all units;

about 2000 tons of 150 grade consumed in February against a predicted requirement of 15 000 tons for all units;

about 7000 tons of 150 grade consumed in March against a predicted requirement of 15 000 tons for all units;

about 12 000 tons of 150 grade consumed in April against a predicted requirement of 15 000 tons for all units.

 

So, what does this tell you? 

 

[MiloMorai]

As usual Kurfy is full of the proverbial.

 

2TAF Jan 4 1945

 

Spitfire - 306 a/c with crew

Typhoon - 221 a/c with crew

 

Even on April  26 1945 Spitfires out number the Typhoon, 318 to 273.

 

As to this 1800 for the Fw190D-9, that is the number one would get from by adding up the WNr. Actual total production is ~8-900. The Fw190A-9 delivered was about 1/2 of the Fw190d-9 deliveries.

[Talisman]

Interesting evidence that 150 Octane was cleared with full service approval by RR for the Merlin 66 as early as Feb 1944:

 

[Cpt_Siddy]

1 hour ago, VO101Kurfurst said:

 

Good luck checking individual engine maintance logs, if they still exists.. :/ Now as for running 130 octane fuel, its quite easy - as long as you do not advance the throttle to over +18, there should be no trouble. 

 

They exist, and even one log, in right place confirm that it was used. Because if surviving logs for one plane shows it is used, it stands to reason, other planes, to which logs are not available, also used it. You can prove the availability of the fuel by looking what settings were used in the engine. 

 

You don't even have to have perfect record for the airfield, you can logically fill in the blanks by some detective work... instead of assuming that allies, who had superiority in material and logistics at the time, did not push every advantage they could. 

 

1 hour ago, VO101Kurfurst said:

 

 

I cannot recall any sub 1000 production either, unless you speak of things like Do 335, Ta 152 etc. As for the others, they were very common. By the end of January, 2/3s of the operational 109s were either G-14/AS, G-10 or K-4s. G-14s run at about 4000 produced IIRC, G-10s production was about 2600, K-4 at 1600, D-9 at 1800, and the Me 262 was around 1400. K-4s and G-10s (which were essentially G/K hybrids) and alone were produced in numbers equal to the entire IXLF production of two years, i.e. cca. 4000. 

 

The base models, yes, but the 9001 ATA modifications of the common models were about as rare as pink rainbow farting unicorn. 

The MW system was introduced because axis did not have high octane fuel. The point of many of the boost measures axist had was specifically introduced to fight knock at higher ATA. And Axis did not have the leeway to ruin engine, so it stands to reason we should not let axis to have the RARE 1.98 ATA models. 

 

All using your logic, ofc :^) 

 

Edited August 16, 2018 by Cpt_Siddy

[Talon_]

16 minutes ago, VO101Kurfurst said:

 

So, this is 'all the evidence'? Circumstantial at best.

 

There was indeed an intention to run all Spittie units on 150 grade and they estimated that this would need about 15 000 tons a month.

You mix that number up with shipments. Shipment s not consumption.

 

Now, when I check this against consumption of 150 grade in NW Europe, which more or less equal the 2nd TAF we get this.

 

about 2000 tons of 150 grade consumed in January against a predicted requirement of 15 000 tons for all units;

about 2000 tons of 150 grade consumed in February against a predicted requirement of 15 000 tons for all units;

about 7000 tons of 150 grade consumed in March against a predicted requirement of 15 000 tons for all units;

about 12 000 tons of 150 grade consumed in April against a predicted requirement of 15 000 tons for all units.

 

So, what does this tell you? 

 

 

That in January alone enough fuel was consumed to fly Spits for 30 hours each

 

2000 tons = 14000 barrels = 602,000 gal

 

Divided by a Spitfire burn rate of 24gal/hour and you have 25,000 flight hours divided amongst a force of 318 Spitfire LFs, 95 Tempests, 62 Spitfire FRs and 273 Typhoons or 30 hours per aircraft in the month.

 

Not bad considering most were still in the process of modification by mid month.

 

Of course by April you're talking flying 180 hours per month on the fuel.

 

Edit: I accidentally did the maths on April unit strength of 808 planes. January 2TAF consisted of only 635 fighter and fighter bomber planes so we can push the numbers up to 45 hours per plane.

Edited August 16, 2018 by Talon_

[Quinte]

Especially considering that the evaluation was made back in august 44, when it was assumed that all types would keep on/start using 150 octane fuel. Incidentally, Typhoons, Tempests, and Mosquitos were in the end not supplied with that fuel.

[Kurfurst]

7 minutes ago, Talon_ said:

 

That in January alone enough fuel was consumed to fly Spits for 

 

2000 tons = 14000 barrels = 602,000 gal

 

Divided by a Spitfire burn rate of 24gal/hour and you have 25,000 flight hours divided amongst a force of 318 Spitfire LFs, 95 Tempests, 62 Spitfire FRs and 273 Typhoons or 748 hours per aircraft in the month.

 

748 hours per aircraft is 31 days of non stop flying by every aircraft in every month. 

 

Including February. 

 

On average.

 

Increasing to 187 days of non stop flying by every aircraft in April. 

 

Does anyone have records of captured Pervitin used by the 2nd TAF?

 

Edited August 16, 2018 by VO101Kurfurst

[Talon_]

4 minutes ago, VO101Kurfurst said:

 

748 hours per aircraft is 31 days of non stop flying by every aircraft in every month. 

 

Including February. 

 

Does anyone have records of captured Pervitin used by the 2nd TAF?

 

 

I made a decimal error, check the edit. 45 hours per aircraft in January rising to 180 hours per aircraft in April.

 

Please tell everyone how 126 Wing with their 25 Spitfires would chew through enough fuel to keep their planes flying for 1000 hours each in January.

Edited August 16, 2018 by Talon_

[Talisman]

Evidence of Spitfires Mk IX LF 25lbs boost 150 Octane fuel over Germany on a standard bomber escort mission August 1944:

 

 

 

[Talon_]

1 minute ago, 56RAF_Talisman said:

Evidence of Spitfires Mk IX LF 25lbs boost 150 Octane fuel over Germany on a standard bomber escort mission August 1944:

 

 

 

 

Thanks but this isn't helpful as this thread is about 2TAF units (83 and 84 Group Spitfires) only.

[SYN_Haashashin]

Hi all,

 

Next personal remark (from both sides in this case) I see and this topic is done (When I have the time I will edit/delete all its needed). Discuss opinions all you want but do not get personal. If you cant do that, better not to post at all.

 

Haash

[PainGod85]

5 minutes ago, Talon_ said:

 

I made a decimal error, check the edit. 45 hours per aircraft in January rising to 180 hours per aircraft in April.

 

Please tell everyone how 126 Wing with their 25 Spitfires would chew through enough fuel to keep their planes flying for 1000 hours each in January.

 

It's obvious, they must've sold their fuel to the Germans so they could fly their 109s at fantasy boost.

 

Nothing else makes sense, think about it!

[LuftManu]

I Don't know whats more entertaining, this post or the one about DD today.

 

Jokes aside, 150 Oct was used in the continent and should be a mod in Bodenplatte. Jason commented they didn't have enough time on the AMA so I guess we will be getting it on the future alongside the G6 late mod? or even more planes, who knows?

 

Yes, I am sure it was used. Long array of documents and coherent info about it. I don't know about the 1,98 ata but for sure, the 150oct was present.

[MiloMorai]

1 minute ago, Talon_ said:

 

I made a decimal error, check the edit.

 

Doesn't really matter as it shows that 150 fuel was being used by 2TAF which is stark contrast to the claim of 1.98ata for the Bf109K-4.

[Talisman]

5 minutes ago, Talon_ said:

 

Thanks but this isn't helpful as this thread is about 2TAF units (83 and 84 Group Spitfires) only.

I posted as background history to the fact of 150 Octane use, including its use over Europe for the period of the BP map, which I believe is Sept 44 to Mar 45.  I am highlighting that 150 Octane use over Europe over the time period is not just about 2nd TAF.

 

Happy landings,

 

Talisman

[Talon_]

1 hour ago, VO101Kurfurst said:

Now I can see logbooks of 2 additional Squadrons outside No 126 Wing but this gives what? Five Squadrons? Six, maybe? Out of what, 30-35?

 

Six out of 24 total, in other words one quarter of the entire Spitfire complement of 2TAF. 

[LuftManu]

[edited]

 

Just No, Manu.

 

Happy Thursday

Edited August 16, 2018 by SYN_Haashashin
No needed.

[Kurfurst]

23 minutes ago, Talon_ said:

 

Six out of 24 total, in other words one quarter of the entire Spitfire complement of 2TAF. 

 

Well the November plan talks of 35 Spitfire Squadrons - 25 IX, 5 XVI, and 5 XIV. 

 

I wonder where those 11 Squadrons disappeared suddenly.

 

6 out of 35 Squadrons is 17%.

 

Coincidentally, 2000-2300 tons of consumption in January and February 1945 out of the projected  15 000 tons is also around 13.3% - 15.3 %.

 

I think we can state with a good degree of certainty that a small fraction of the 2nd TAF Spitfire squadrons were using 150 grade fuel in January - February 1945 and the rest still used +18 with 130 grade. This seems logical as the the remaining stocks had to be used up. 

 

It is probably no coincidence then that we have +18 lbs Spitfire IXs.