Auto level autopilot is single engine airplanes which gives additional speed is being abused in multiplayer

[Aap]

25 minutes ago, Dakpilot said:

I think you underestimate the actual amount of time that would need to be taken to change code and add a feature

 

I honestly don't know the code or how much it would take to change it, but it certainly does not seem like a big task to add a trottle cap or something like that. Or at least if there was a code to tell to "keep ball in the middle", it could as well tell to "keep ball off the middle" etc, so it could not be used as a lazy man's optimal control setting, but would still let people go to get a beer or take a piss.

[Diggun]

I think this thread shows that it's widely agreed that this is a non-problem. If someone is able to run away from you on autolevel? You didn't attack with anywhere near enough of an E advantage. If someone is catching up with you on autolevel? Turn. 

[Aap]

4 minutes ago, RedKestrel said:

Why alter a feature so that it works maybe possibly slightly better in a relatively rare situation only online?

 

Because it would work better in certain situations online. Question back, why not alter it, if it works better in some situations, but would not cause any trouble in other situations?

[unreasonable]

5 minutes ago, II./JG77_Kemp said:

 

I think if someone notices a gamey feature and tries to bring it up to get it changed, is at least somewhat constructive. But why would anyone  waste his life arguing against the change, especially if it has no impact on his own gameplay? Just for the sake of stagnation?

 

Because unless we have seen the specifics of the proposed change, there is no way of saying that "it will have no impact on his own gameplay".

The OP says "I'm not against autolevel autopilot completely, but it should be limited to cruise speed to avoid abuse this expliot [sic] in multiplayer"

 

He does not say limited only in MP. Perhaps he means this, but who knows? My experience of seeing people trying to get the game changed because everyone in MP is a potential villain makes me sceptical of this.   If someone says that all auto-level should be limited to 70% of throttle then it would affect me even if I never play MP again, and I am the sole judge of how much.  

 

 

 

 

[Aap]

6 minutes ago, RedKestrel said:

It will have an impact on our gameplay if, while implementing this feature, it introduces a bug that then causes problems where there were none before

 

Okay, I guess devs should drop their work immediately, because any development could cause a bug?

[Ehret]

11 minutes ago, Diggun said:

I think this thread shows that it's widely agreed that this is a non-problem. If someone is able to run away from you on autolevel? You didn't attack with anywhere near enough of an E advantage. If someone is catching up with you on autolevel? Turn. 

 

And nothing forbids anyone chasing/escaping on auto-level too if there is (if any) advantage doing so. There is none - you will get sniped easily when running ideally straight. The auto-level disallows shallow dives in gentle turns, too - probably the best technique for running away.

Edited May 16, 2018 by Ehret

[RedKestrel]

Just now, VesseL said:

I dont know how much time it would take. Its not the guestion. The guestion is, can someone exploit this feature? I think there are situations where it is possible. So the limiting throttle is a solution to that problem. Is it doable I dont know.

well, if there are situations where its possible to exploit, do it, track it, and prove its a problem. Right now the information we have suggests that there really isn't much room to exploit.

 

Just now, II./JG77_Kemp said:

 

I honestly don't know the code or how much it would take to change it, but it certainly does not seem like a big task to add a trottle cap or something like that. Or at least if there was a code to tell to "keep ball in the middle", it could as well tell to "keep ball off the middle" etc, so it could not be used as a lazy man's optimal control setting, but would still let people go to get a beer or take a piss.

Things that don't seem like a big task to a lay person are often much bigger tasks, especially in programming. Its like looking at a house and saying "well, I want to add a new window, should be simple enough, I'll just cut a hole in the wall!". You don't know what you might actually be cutting into.

Request a feature, fine, happens all the time, you're a customer and you have the right. But I see a ton of people on these forums, just in the short time I've been here, declaring that implementing feature x would take an hours, tops, despite having no clue what it would actually take to do so.

 

Just now, II./JG77_Kemp said:

 

Because it would work better in certain situations online. Question back, why not alter it, if it works better in some situations, but would not cause any trouble in other situations?

We're assuming it wouldn't cause any trouble in other situations. We don't know that, because we don't have the code. We don't know how long this would take to fix, either, which means 

We also don't know it will work better in some situations, because so far no one has proven that it causes actual problems.  Fi

Someone arguing for this change needs to make a track or recording where autolevel actually gives an advantage that impacts gameplay, because so far all that's been shown is that it does nothing.
 

 

Just now, II./JG77_Kemp said:

 

Okay, I guess devs should drop their work immediately, because any development could cause a bug?

No, devs should keep working to fix existing bugs and implement new content that would be an improvement worth the risk of a bug screwing things up for people, and worth the devs time. Making a change like this, when there has been no problem demonstrated ( and evidence provided to show that there is no problem) is a waste of everyone's time. 

...man, this entire thread has been a waste of my time. The devs aren't going to change something like this since its not a bug and so few people probably care, and no matter how much evidence anyone provides people will claim it's a widely-abused exploit.

@myself:

[LukeFF]

It must be done:

 

 

[dburne]

1 hour ago, Diggun said:

I think this thread shows that it's widely agreed that this is a non-problem. If someone is able to run away from you on autolevel? You didn't attack with anywhere near enough of an E advantage. If someone is catching up with you on autolevel? Turn. 

 

I am pretty sure if auto-level gave any advantage whatsoever, this topic would have been discussed ad nauseum a long, long time ago.

 

 

[VesseL]

RedKestrel I did mean those situational awareness advantages and maybe you save some time by first pushing the autolevel, and then fine tuning the trims and at the same time looking around for enemy and that kind of adv. This is not a problem for me so im not demanding anything now, or ever will. Just my 2c.

[Aap]

41 minutes ago, RedKestrel said:

Things that don't seem like a big task to a lay person are often much bigger tasks, especially in programming.

 

Well, I am not a coder by profession and have not seen the code of BoX, but these couple of possible suggestions really don'y seem hard to do in any way. If you have some real reason to think otherwise, would be interesting to know why.

 

46 minutes ago, RedKestrel said:

We're assuming it wouldn't cause any trouble in other situations. We don't know that, because we don't have the code.

 

So, in what kind of situations do you expect any trouble? Just to understand if there is something else behind this fear other than natural resistance to change of some people. What possible trouble or disadvantages in gameplay could you envision, if autolevel was less effective?

 

51 minutes ago, RedKestrel said:

Someone arguing for this change needs to make a track or recording where autolevel actually gives an advantage

 

What is there to track? Anybody that owns the game can go to quick mission, hit autolevel and see that the plane is flying perfectly level with ball in the middle all the time.

 

54 minutes ago, RedKestrel said:

devs should keep working to fix existing bugs and implement new content that would be an improvement

 

For some people changing this autolevel feature would be improvement of the game. I have not yet seen any arguments that it would hinder anybody's game experience. Only general resistance to change and the "beer and piss" argument, which is irrelevant, because the "beer and piss" thing could still be possible.

5 minutes ago, dburne said:

I am pretty sure if auto-level gave any advantage whatsoever, this topic would have been discussed ad nauseum a long, long time ago.

 

The possible advantages have been explained in this thread already and this topic has been discussed before. You don't see Luke's dead horse image right before your post?

[Cloyd]

23 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

It must be done:

 

 

Keep beating Luke, seems that horse is not quite dead yet.

[BraveSirRobin]

35 minutes ago, II./JG77_Kemp said:

 

The possible advantages have been explained in this thread 

 

And have been debunked.  There are no advantages.  But that doesn’t seem to stop the non-complaining...

[Trooper117]

Bloody kids playground yet again... constant same people whinging about a perceived problem that doesn't exist!

It's just been proved above that the auto level function does not 'give a player perfect trim at the push of a button'... 

Yet the thread keeps harping on now about dumbing down the auto level mechanism... LOOK AT THE POST WITH NICE PICTURES ABOVE... ffs!

This thread and it's notion about any kind of advantage is now null and void, get over it  

[Aap]

8 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said:

And have been debunked.  There are no advantages.  But that doesn’t seem to stop the non-complaining...

 

Well, you have demonstrated before that you have limited capability of understanding logical explanations, so there is no surprise here.

P.S. Have you kept your word of not flying on any server, where any kind of AI is enabled? Like autolevel, for example?

Edited May 16, 2018 by II./JG77_Kemp

[BraveSirRobin]

2 minutes ago, II./JG77_Kemp said:

 

Well, you have demonstrated before that you have limited capability of understanding logical explanations, so there is no surprise here.

P.S. Have you kept your word of not flying on any server, where any kind of AI is enabled? Like autolevel, for example?

 

Lol. I actually specifically made an exception for auto level when I said that I would not fly on servers with AI.  It would appear that your capacity for understanding basic concepts is even more limited than mine.  But continue on with your very productive non-complaining...

[WheelwrightPL]

16 minutes ago, Trooper117 said:

Bloody kids playground yet again... constant same people whinging about a perceived problem that doesn't exist!

It's just been proved above that the auto level function does not 'give a player perfect trim at the push of a button'...

 

 

So, if you have poor trim and hit autolevel  your speed will be much lower as opposed to autolevelling with perfect trim ? Can somebody verify this ?

[Rjel]

1 minute ago, raaaid said:

the wind moves the trim tabs which moves the elevator what moves the plane

 

technically and due to the half teardorp wing profile the best way to evade is roll 180º and dive

 

just as they did in real life

 

also in real life you pray your prey gos flying level for a zero deflection shot

 

what is to be taken seriously i wonder had i made the op point

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is why we have 6 page long threads.

[Aap]

40 minutes ago, WheelwrightPL said:

So, if you have poor trim and hit autolevel  your speed will be much lower as opposed to autolevelling with perfect trim ? Can somebody verify this ?

 

It appears like that for stab trim (Bf109). For other planes autolevel sets your control surfaces to optimal for level flight.

 

53 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said:

It would appear that your capacity for understanding basic concepts is even more limited than mine.  But continue on with your very productive non-complaining...

 

Well, if someone does not understand the advantages of having a computer automatically keep optimal control settings for you, what is there to discuss with him? Anybody with basic knowledge of engineering or math would understand the impact of eliminating the greatest source of variation (human input). I bet that on a Formula One forum you would claim that auto-traction control gives no benefit over human control and if someone explained to you otherwise, you would call it complaining and try to turn it into an insult contest, without actually saying anything constructive about the actual matter at hand.

Edited May 16, 2018 by II./JG77_Kemp

[ethelward]

52 minutes ago, WheelwrightPL said:

 

So, if you have poor trim and hit autolevel  your speed will be much lower as opposed to autolevelling with perfect trim ? Can somebody verify this ?

 

Yes, just look at ZachariasX's post p. 5.

[BraveSirRobin]

1 hour ago, II./JG77_Kemp said:

 

Well, if someone does not understand the advantages of having a computer automatically keep optimal control settings for you, what is there to discuss with him? 

 

The computer isn’t doing anything that you can’t already do.  And the thing that it’s doing actually makes you an easier target to hit.  So, you’re right about one thing, there isn’t much left to discuss with you.

[Aap]

2 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said:

The computer isn’t doing anything that you can’t already do.

 

Nice, want to back it up with footage, too? Do a recording of 5 minute level flight, with no deviations in altitude or bank and ball perfectly in the middle?

Looking forward to it.

26 minutes ago, raaaid said:

ive discussed that in an f1 forum and main opinion is tc off is faster but unsafer

 

Haha, well, should not be surprised, I guess.

[Gambit21]

25 minutes ago, raaaid said:

ive discussed that in an f1 forum and main opinion is tc off is faster but unsafer

 

Don't confuse traction control with ABS.

Traction control is without a doubt faster, which is one reason the Williams cars back in the days of Mansel were so ungodly fast, and why F1 teams in years since then have tried to cheat to get 'faux' traction control by using automated rear brake actuation on acceleration out of the corner. They didn't use it, or try to go around sideways to get it because it's slower.

Off topic - just wanted to point out how wrong that is.

[BraveSirRobin]

Just now, II./JG77_Kemp said:

 

Nice, want to back it up with footage, too? Do a recording of 5 minute level flight, with no deviations in altitude or bank and ball perfectly in the middle?

Looking forward to it.

 

Ok.  Just wait here quietly while I work on it.

[Ehret]

1 hour ago, II./JG77_Kemp said:

 Anybody with basic knowledge of engineering or math would understand the impact of eliminating the greatest source of variation (human input).

 

You want that variation in a combat because it makes you less likely to be hit - it's a form of defense. In airplanes with full trims (the P-40, P-39, La-5/F) I can keep them almost as steady as they would be on the auto-level if needed. Once you are fired upon you need to switch the auto-level off and this will slow your reaction.

Edited May 16, 2018 by Ehret

[Aap]

34 minutes ago, Ehret said:

You want that variation in a combat because it makes you less likely to be hit - it's a form of defense.

 

Indeed I want to be able to roll and turn and do all kinds of maneuvers in combat. But here we are talking about perfectly level flight with zero slipping.

 

34 minutes ago, Ehret said:

In airplanes with full trims (the P-40, P-39, La-5/F) I can keep them almost as steady as they would be on the auto-level if needed.

 

Well ... "almost" already kind of proves what I am saying. And what of Fw190 or Yak-1? While actively looking over your shoulder or scanning for contacts at 6 o'clock high or 5 o'clock low?

34 minutes ago, Ehret said:

You want that variation in a combat

 

Also, if it was not clear, I meant variation in mathematical sense. Deviation from ideal, to put it differently. You want to keep that at minimum, if you want to keep things under control.

Edited May 16, 2018 by II./JG77_Kemp

[StickMan]

5 hours ago, 19//curiousGamblerr said:

 

 

Try it in the 109, or the I-16 with no trims to speak of...

 

Speaking of data, where’s the data confirming people actually abuse this online? Oh wait, OP pulled that idea out of his exhaust pipe...

You didn't read my other posts that came after. The 109 and the I16 have preset trim that was set on the ground. At the proper airspeed and power setting they will fly straight and level. The 109 as you know has the extra benefit of adjustable horizontal stabilizer.

Edited May 16, 2018 by StickMan

[Aap]

1 hour ago, BraveSirRobin said:

Ok.  Just wait here quietly while I work on it.

 

It has been over an hour now for the five minute footage and I don't know how many attempts you have had already, but can't keep waiting any longer for now. Just for the sake of curiosity will be interesting to see your final result, but obviously the fact remains that at the end you won't be able to match computer. Even if you get 5 minutes "almost" perfect, can you extend it to 10 mins? Do it 10-20 times in a row? Computer can. You might be the 90% free throw shooter that I referred to previously or even 95%, but you will miss eventually. Computer won't. It is as simple as that.

Anyway, I am out for tonight, but curious to see your footage anyway tomorrow.

Edited May 16, 2018 by II./JG77_Kemp

[TheWarsimmer]

I don't think it's a big deal either way, but it does have a few issues as is. Whether you think it is worth taking the time to change it or not is another thing. First off, nobody can trim an aircraft as fast as the autolevel, no matter how good they are. Obviously, it's a great feature, and I use it all the time (for convenience and reducing fatigue on long flights), but it does allow some forms of manipulation, even if people pretend like it doesn't. First off, those precious few seconds it takes to trim an aircraft can instead be used to look around and gain situational awareness, while sacrificing no speed. What evidence do I have of this? Myself. There have been times when several things have been going on at once, and the ability to instantly trim the aircraft and forget about it made things much easier.

 

It doesn't matter if the plane is technically trimmed or not, in practice it is. It also allows newer players to use it as a crutch. Pretending it isn't a handicap at all is a bit disingenuous, but the level that it actual affects things is debatable. Of course, I would never want to remove the feature entirely. It comes in handy way too often. But the exploit mentioned above exists whether one wants to believe it or not. You can instantly trim the craft while losing no speed or time, allowing you to get instant situational awareness that wouldn't be possible irl, and it is a real advantage.

[BraveSirRobin]

32 minutes ago, II./JG77_Kemp said:

 

It has been over an hour now for the five minute footage and I don't know how many attempts you have had already, but can't keep waiting any longer for now. 

 

Lol

 

i was just yanking your chain.   Flying straight and level just makes you an easier target to hit.  If you think that’s an advantage, keep on crying about it.  It seems like a productive way to spend your time.  I moved on.

[6./ZG26_Gielow]

Will auto level  make german fighters be able to catch a P51 on BoBP ??? 

[curiousGamblerr]

Props to baylor for most honest post in this thread, maybe the entire forum...

 

[grambo]

22 hours ago, RedKestrel said:

Well the testing shows that there’s little if any advantage anyway. 

 

Unless you’ve got some test results showing auto level granting a bonus to speed over a manually trimmed aircraft this is all moot.

 

 

Refer to this part of my post:

 

Quote

You see people referring to it as "boost mode" not because it magically increases the top speed of your plane, but because it essentially bestows perfect flying skill upon the pilot (within limited parameters), letting you immediately maximize your plane's potential in a way you wouldn't be able to naturally.

 

Perfectly trimming your plane (or finding the right control inputs) takes time. Maintaining an optimally aerodynamic course - while maintaining situational awareness, checking your 6, etc - is very difficult.

 

Autolevel shortcuts all of that and gives you an instant "preserve as much energy as mathematically possible, computer!" button.

 

Differences in autolevel top speed due to trim settings are either negligible (in typical flight without extreme trim settings) or nonexistent, depending on the mechanical design of the control surfaces and trim mechanism.

 

Again, the difference isn't huge. It is probably somewhat rare for exploitation of this mechanic to be the deciding factor in an engagement. But it feels wrong for a convenience feature like autolevel to be a fixture of combat.

 

Baylor's post is a good summarization:

 

Edited May 17, 2018 by grambo

[Aap]

6 hours ago, BraveSirRobin said:

i was just yanking your chain.   Flying straight and level just makes you an easier target to hit.  If you think that’s an advantage, keep on crying about it.  It seems like a productive way to spend your time.  I moved on.

 

Haha, I wonder how many failed attempts it took to come up with that excuse. I see that you have dropped your argued claim from your last post, though, while trying to stay hostile, so at least some progress has been made. Glad to hear you have moved on.

[BraveSirRobin]

16 minutes ago, II./JG77_Kemp said:

 

Haha, I wonder how many failed attempts it took to come up with that excuse. 

 

Zero.  I didn't even bother to start up the game.  Can you check to make sure it's still working?  Thanks!

[Aap]

51 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said:

Zero.  I didn't even bother to start up the game.  Can you check to make sure it's still working?  Thanks!

 

I guess openly declaring that you are just trolling on forums is a lesser hit to your ego than admitting your failures 

Anyway, I thought you had moved on. Another change of heart?

[ZachariasX]

Now this is getting utterly silly.

 

A claim was made in the OP about potential "abuse of autolevel in multiplayer" without providing any evidence for it whatsoever.

 

I proved the assumption that autolevel works as a "perfect trim" wrong. Page 5.

 

JtD made a valid statement that autolevel does in fact mask a downside of certain planes (some are more affected and some less) and is thus acting as a "gamey" feature. It being "gamey", one can think of whether or not to remove it from any "full realism setting". It would imply though that planes that require multicrew or actually were fitted with some sort of autopilot have that one added to their system. From the devs side, the answer is given by not prceeding that way, leaving us with the shortcut.

 

But not only the original assumption in the OP is technically wrong, it gets worse:

On 16.5.2018 at 7:36 AM, AndyJWest said:

When someone gives actual figures ("5-20 km/h depending on altitude"), I expect them to be able to back them up.

It is even worse than that. I gave proof that depending on the situation, autolevel can take that amount of speed from you, rather than giving it! Autolevel can penalize you by masking wether you fly out of trim or not!

 

Then there was some more color added to the thread and now this:

4 hours ago, grambo said:

Autolevel shortcuts all of that and gives you an instant "preserve as much energy as mathematically possible, computer!" button.

proven false statements are just re-posted, again without any evidence backing it up whatsoever.

 

Anything that is something along the lines "I simply can't fly, therefore a button keeping me airborne is a cheat for the others!" does absolutely not help your point. And it is really not that last % of wasted energy that determined your demise in MP. The other guy is better than you. That's it.

 

4 hours ago, grambo said:

Perfectly trimming your plane (or finding the right control inputs) takes time. Maintaining an optimally aerodynamic course - while maintaining situational awareness, checking your 6, etc - is very difficult.

No, it's not. I can do it. So can you. Practise and it will be easy.

12 hours ago, VesseL said:

by first pushing the autolevel, and then fine tuning the trims

You can't do that. You have nothing that lets you judge how well you trimmed if stick inputs override trim inputs.

9 hours ago, II./JG77_Kemp said:

Indeed I want to be able to roll and turn and do all kinds of maneuvers in combat. But here we are talking about perfectly level flight with zero slipping.

Practise. Once you nanaged to fly cordinated, flying straight is "straight forward". And you have a coolie hat on your HOTAS that makes it VERY EASY to do so within about 3 seconds time, depending how fast you are accellerating or how steep your climb is.

 

 

If you really can't keep your plane straight, then you are dead on MP. Trust me on this, the other guy that shoots you down so easily that you might think he is cheating, he is not cheating. He can fly.

 

Flying cordinated maneuvers is not easy, it takes practise. You have to learn that when you sit in a real aircraft as well. You can learn that here as well.

 

One thing is of note: even though some AC have three axis trims, they are not meant to be flown "hands off". Autolevel is the only way to have them fly hands off to sort out possible domestic issues (your opinion on somebody elses is of little help) that make it possible to stay online in a longer mission.

 

Oh, wait, I have a GREAT idea! Why don't we activate the Pause button in MP? this way, I didn't have to use autolevel when having to leave the chair?

 

And now I have cheat for you about setting trims right in a high speed chase, but don't tell anyone!

Sekrit spoiler here! No look!

Spoiler

1) Enable technochat.

2) Load your aircraft of choice (in which later on you will be constantly wasted in MP) in a quick mission.

3) Let the aircraft fly at maximum speed with help of autolevel. take your time and set the trim such that it fliys straight at that max. speed.

4) Take a sheet of paper.

5) Take a pencil (or whatever you use for writing)

6) Write down the trim settings (the "%" that technochat is telling you where trim is)

 

Now THE CHEAT:

 

In case of a chase, immediately set rudder and elevator trim to the noted % position.

 

Lo and behold, miracle! Your aircraft is trimmed to fly straight! In seconds!

 

Yes, I'm your saviour!

 

 

 

 

[-TBC-AeroAce]

I know auto level does not trim because in some aircraft at certain weight and trim settings the auto level will not stay engaged because the elevator can not provide the required force to stay level. 

 

So as the auto level only controls elevator it is clear that unless the plane is correctly trimmed the elevator will be causing more drag.

 

Please end this thread lol

Edited May 17, 2018 by AeroAce

[ZachariasX]

12 minutes ago, AeroAce said:

So as the auto level only controls elevator

It controls elevator, aileron and rudder.

[-TBC-AeroAce]

3 minutes ago, ZachariasX said:

It controls elevator, aileron and rudder.

 

Ok ok I was only thing about the horizontal axis my bad. 

 

Ps I'm not sure in controls rudder that we'll actually.  I ofter have some slip. But let's leave it there.