Mosquito in Bodenplatte?

[busdriver]

On 7/22/2019 at 7:28 PM, 77.CountZero said:

 

All types flew over or atack/bombed stuff in map area for bobp, but only 140RAF using Mosquito PR Mk XVI operated from base on bobp map in that timeline, B.58 Melsbroek, only ones good fit for SP for bobp.

 

In Amiens area (B.87 Rosiere en Santerre and B.48 Amiens/Glisy) ~50km SW off bobp map border shown last time, had few squadrons of Mosquito NF Mk.30 and FB Mk.VI flying in map area for bobp, and most moved in B.58 Melsbroek during April 45. They then dont fit for bobp SP. 

 

 

FB Mk.VIs would easily fit in this simulation. If Amiens is ~50 km SW off the BoBP map, then perhaps A.75 Cambrai/Epinoy which is ~70 km closer to Melsbroek, might be on the map. There were three Mosquito squadrons posted at A.75 on 1 Jan 45, 107 Sqdn, 305 Sqdn, 613 Sqdn each with approximately 20 FB Mk.VIs and the 417 ARF (repair facility with over 50 Mosquitos).

 

The addition of a flyable FB Mk.VI would be perfect for BoBP.

[CountZero]

3 hours ago, busdriver said:

 

FB Mk.VIs would easily fit in this simulation. If Amiens is ~50 km SW off the BoBP map, then perhaps A.75 Cambrai/Epinoy which is ~70 km closer to Melsbroek, might be on the map. There were three Mosquito squadrons posted at A.75 on 1 Jan 45, 107 Sqdn, 305 Sqdn, 613 Sqdn each with approximately 20 FB Mk.VIs and the 417 ARF (repair facility with over 50 Mosquitos).

 

The addition of a flyable FB Mk.VI would be perfect for BoBP.

Yes thats even better option , but its still 5km to west from south map edge shown here:

 

i marked it on this part picture shown in uper topic:

 

 

Edited July 26, 2019 by 77.CountZero

[[GDKC]ghostdog688]

I know the realism nerds will likely hate me. But if it’s a case of “we can’t have it because variant X served 5km out of the official map boundaries” then come on. Put them in the next nearest base that’s on the map. No way the multiplayer scenarios builders look at realistic airbase locations - they look at what is fair and balanced from  the POV of mission design. 

If the devs and the fans actually wanted a plane in a combat zone, they’d find the variant serving in that theatre and they’d make it work. If it wasn’t there, they’d find the closest design and label it as a “what if”. They wouldn’t give up because said aircraft didn’t serve until two weeks after the campaign was over or some minor point like that.

bear in mind that the whole point of IL2: battle of Stalingrad was to showcase the eastern front. Bodenplatte is purely because the devs knew enough of us would want RAF and USAAF aircraft up against Axis powers. 

Now, that’s totally fine - a dev that listens to its fans without compromising the overall core concept (ww2 period correct combat simulation) is a smart dev who stands to make a successful business.

Hence why PTO will surely eventually happen - we want to see Zekes and Zeros slug it out against The Hellcats and Avengers, with epic carrier battles, torpedo attacks and dive bombs.

 

Id also like to see North Africa, and even seeing Normandy and France again would be awesome. 

But what I really want is just more well made planes from all sides, before we descend into the minutiae of variants. I don’t need several 109 and 190 variants - but seeing a hurricane, a spitfire and a mosquito that’s period correct with contemporary 109s, 190s and -110s/88’s would be spiffing...

 

heck, let’s see a night fighter mosquito vs a night fighter -110. First gen AA radar and bomber sweeps anyone?

Edited July 27, 2019 by UOAFghostdog688

[CountZero]

in MP it dosent mather, like its said before mission makers would just use closes base posible or not even bather to check from where they operated, but for SP where you have 90% of users like they say how can you go for historical when you dont have their base on map, and from what we have in game now they aim for as correct as posible SP campaigns. So if posible you make PR version as default to fit SP, and then add modification for more sexy ground attack version for MP

[Diggun]

 

I'll just leave this here... 

Edited July 29, 2019 by [_FLAPS_]Diggun

[MiloMorai]

The developers already have an airplane 'in the hanger', the 1.98ata K-4 which was only around for ~3 weeks for testing and another week (end of march) where its bases are not on the map. A precedent has been set for fantasy a/c.

[=27=Davesteu]

1 hour ago, MiloMorai said:

The developers already have an airplane 'in the hanger', the 1.98ata K-4 which was only around for ~3 weeks for testing and another week (end of march) where its bases are not on the map. A precedent has been set for fantasy a/c.

First of all, it's a modification, not a standalone airplane. Second of all:

On 5/9/2019 at 6:40 AM, MiloMorai said:

So that explains the 1.98ata K-4 which was only around for a few weeks , late Dec '44 and Jan '45, for operational testing and the boost was not cleared for use til 6 week before the end of the war. Never mind that its bases, but 2, which aren't even on the map. Then their is the lack of C3 and methanol.

 

II./JG11

OUT OF MAP Zellhausen 17-12-44

OUT OF MAP Strasburg 23-1-45

 

I./JG27

Stormede 19-3-45

OUT OF MAP Helmstedt 30-3-45

 

III./JG27

Gutersloh 18-3-45

OUT OF MAP Goslar 29-3-45 

OUT OF MAP Halberstadt 8-4-45

You might have forgotten. After all, you are busy filling the forum with your ongoing agenda.
BTW: Zellhausen is within the map's boundaries.

 

 

 

Guys, let the Mosquito rest for now. Only a few Mosquito night fighter detachments and a reconnaissance unit were stationed within the map during the BoBP timeframe, no bombers, no fighter bombers. Aircraft like the Mitchell II, Ar 234 B-2, Typhoon Ib, Spitfire Mk. XIV, P-61A/B and Mustang Mk. I should be prioritized and could keep the Devs busy for a while. The P-61A/B fills the night fighter and intruder role.

Edited July 29, 2019 by =27=Davesteu

[MiloMorai]

It wasn't me who inserted the 'OUT OF MAP' text.

 

Sure there are several a/c that are missing.

 

After D-Day, many Black Widows moved to France. Although several interceptions of night-flying German aircraft were made, most Black Widow missions were night intruder missions against trains, armor, and other ground targets .

 

425th NFS

Le Moustoiris, France — 1 Sep 44 to 11 Sep 44

Coulommiers, France — 11 Sep 44 to 13 Oct 44

Prosnes, France — 13 Oct 44 to 19 Nov 44

Etain, France — 19 Nov 44 to 12 Apr 45

 

Are these bases on the map?

 

422cd NFS

After arriving at Charmy Down and relocating to Scorton in the UK, the squadron began operating out of ALG A-15 at Cherbourg-Maupertus (France) after D-Day. Later, they moved to A-39 at Chateaudun (France); to A-78 at Florennes/Juzaine (Belgium); and to Y-59 at Strassfeld, Germany. On V-E day, they were stationed at Langensalza (Airfield R-2).

 

Is A-78 on the map?

[CountZero]

Yes A-78 is on BoBp map

[=27=Davesteu]

2 minutes ago, MiloMorai said:

It wasn't me who inserted the 'OUT OF MAP' text.

You did. Click on the little arrow symbol above the quotation.

 

4 minutes ago, MiloMorai said:

A-78 at Florennes/Juzaine (Belgium); and to Y-59 at Strassfeld, Germany

Both airfields are within the map's boundaries. 422nd NFS' bases are covered throughout the BoBP timeframe.

The P-61 was frequently used for (nocturnal) ground attack missions - it's like a Mosquito NF and FB combination fitting the scenario.

[CountZero]

P-61A/B are better fit then Mosquitos

 

http://www.americanairmuseum.com/unit/1055

 

Based

Florennes / Juzaine

16 September 1944 – 6 April 1945

[MiloMorai]

47 minutes ago, =27=Davesteu said:

You did. Click on the little arrow symbol above the quotation.

 

Both airfields are within the map's boundaries. 422nd NFS' bases are covered throughout the BoBP timeframe.

The P-61 was frequently used for (nocturnal) ground attack missions - it's like a Mosquito NF and FB combination fitting the scenario.

 

And if you had done a little more searching you would have found that I had asked which airfields are on the map. Iirc it was sevenless who added 'OUT OF MAP'.?

 

A-78: 16 September 1944 – 6 April 1945. Y-59 is out of the timeframe.

 

I already stated,

1 hour ago, MiloMorai said:

Although several interceptions of night-flying German aircraft were made, most Black Widow missions were night intruder missions against trains, armor, and other ground targets

 

[-TBC-AeroAce]

I really do not care if a collector plane did not operate from a base on the map. The only thing that is important is if it could have operated in that area and rough time line. Collectors plane are ment to be a bit left field, you know, for fun.

 

In the case of the mossi or any other plane that operated in the area but not from a base on the map, if people really want to get funny about it, we could have it in campaign starting from an airspawn and there we go problem solved.

 

Also what is wrong with a bit of alternative history as long as the main plane set is acurate. 

 

Rivet counters need to chill out a bit and see the wood for the trees.

Edited July 30, 2019 by AeroAce

[AndyJWest]

27 minutes ago, AeroAce said:

Also what is wrong with a bit of alternative history as long as the main plane set is acurate. 

 

Everything that takes place in IL-2 GB is 'alternate history' anyway. At least it is unless people are reenacting fully-documented individual encounters between specific aircraft, right down to the bullet impacts. 

[=RvE=Windmills]

Mosquito+410 pack let's do it.

[EAF19_Marsh]

Mossie would fit the spirit of BoBp, would even out the a/c group, would be extremely popular and offer no unrealistically ‘unicorn’ performance. Typhoon is probably out and a Spitfire XIV would be fantastic, but I’d love to see the Mosquito and the -234 to flesh out the bomber / light attack area.

[busdriver]

21 hours ago, =27=Davesteu said:

Guys, let the Mosquito rest for now. 

 

And here I've been thinking it's a game, not an anal retentive grognard recreation for the exclusive entertainment of rivet counters. 

 

21 hours ago, =27=Davesteu said:

Aircraft like the Mitchell II, Ar 234 B-2, Typhoon Ib, Spitfire Mk. XIV, P-61A/B and Mustang Mk. I should be prioritized and could keep the Devs busy for a while. 

 

I think you meant to say, "In my opinion, [snip] should be prioritized..." Because after all, in your opinion there is a great demand for the P-61, greater than the demand for the Mosquito. Nothing says fun and air combat immersion like "hey let's fly this all black airplane on a daylight MP server, and fly daylight interdiction sorties." Or perhaps the equally realistic simulation of, "let's fly night intercepts using the Mk.I eyeball without GCI or the RO (radar operator)."

 

To make the P-61 fit in the game, you're okay with adding the task of additional night air war content to the Devs' plate. Your logic for including a night fighter without the requisite game content, just because one 20-24 plane squadron was posted somewhere within the confines of the game map is simplistic. I understand the 422nd NFS was posted at Florennes. Prioritizing a limited use and small batch night fighting airplane over a markedly more versatile, numerous and (dare I say it) popular airplane is prioritizing a minuscule niche. 

 

If however you are making the decisions for the Devs...good luck with that marketing campaign.

 

4 hours ago, AeroAce said:

I really do not care if a collector plane did not operate from a base on the map. The only thing that is important is if it could have operated in that area and rough time line.

 

This man "gets it."   I've gifted a couple of modules and airplanes over the years. I'll put my money where my mouth is and gift two dozen Mosquito FB Mk.VIs but not a single P-61.

 

Edited July 30, 2019 by busdriver

[EAF19_Marsh]

I think it is very important that the Mosquito thread involves a discussion of the widely-used P-61 light attack aircraft well known for its countless operations across France, the Low Countries and Germany.

[=27=Davesteu]

1 hour ago, busdriver said:

And here I've been thinking it's a game, not an anal retentive grognard recreation for the exclusive entertainment of rivet counters. 

21 hours ago, =27=Davesteu said:

Aircraft like the Mitchell II, Ar 234 B-2, Typhoon Ib, Spitfire Mk. XIV, P-61A/B and Mustang Mk. I should be prioritized ...

I think you meant to say, "In my opinion, [snip] should be prioritized..." Because after all, in your opinion there is a great demand for the P-61, greater than the demand for the Mosquito.

Why the heck are you acting as if my post offended you?

It's obviously my opinion. And yes, I'm a 'rivet counter' - got any problem with that?

 

1 hour ago, busdriver said:

 Nothing says fun and air combat immersion like "hey let's fly this all black airplane on a daylight MP server, and fly daylight interdiction sorties."

Thanks for sharing your personal interpretation of 'fun' and 'no fun'. Most users don't play MP.

 

1 hour ago, busdriver said:

To make the P-61 fit in the game, you're okay with adding the task of additional night air war content to the Devs' plate. Your logic for including an night fighter without the requisite game content, just because one 20-24 plane squadron was posted somewhere within the confines of the game map is simplistic. I understand the 422nd NFS was posted at Florennes. Prioritizing a limited use and small batch night fighting airplane over a markedly more versatile, numerous and (dare I say it) popular airplane is prioritizing a minuscule niche. 

Its main adversaries, the Nachtschlachtgruppen, are going to be part of the ingame campaign. Ground targets are going to be part of the ingame campaign. Your point?

Your beloved Mosquito FB Mk. VI was used in the night intruder role by 2nd TAF - just like the P-61 of 9 AF (which doubled as night fighters).

Watering down the historical approach of this game for the sake of including a plane you happen to be a fan of is simplistic.

Edited July 30, 2019 by =27=Davesteu

[busdriver]

1 hour ago, =27=Davesteu said:

Why the heck are you acting as if my post offended you?

 

Simple...your advice as previously quoted...you know...this line

 

23 hours ago, =27=Davesteu said:

Guys, let the Mosquito rest for now.

 

 

1 hour ago, =27=Davesteu said:

Most users don't play MP.

 

I understand and believe this to be true, I am primarily a SP enthusiast. I also believe most if not the vast majority of in game content is tactical daylight operations reflecting tactical WWII real life.  Lest that last point get lost in translation, RL night fighter/interdiction by a solitary P-61 squadron was a small fraction of the total sorties flown in the time frame of BoBP. So you, the admitted rivet counter would like the Devs to devote resources to an airplane that was limited to essentially one variant that flew night operations exclusively. Where as the Mosquito comes in several varieties, operating both day and night. As a SP fan, I'd go with the Mosquito. My preference is indeed for the FB Mk.VI, but I'd be happy with any Mosquito version that routinely operated within the airspace covered in BoBP. I'd even take a PR mark over the P-61 all day, every day. Start with one mark and let others be additional collector's airplanes. 

 

1 hour ago, =27=Davesteu said:

Its main adversaries, the Nachtschlachtgruppen, are going to be part of the ingame campaign. Ground targets are going to be part of the ingame campaign. Your point?

 

I must admit I've gone back and re-read each Developer Diary Bodenplatte entry and failed to find your implication that the night air war is part of the campaign. I can't find that anywhere. I did search for Nachtschlachtgruppen https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/search/?q=Nachtschlachtgruppen but nowhere did I see where the Devs mentioned this, much less the night air war. You frequently use the term, but not the Devs. While the Nachtschlachtgruppen had day and night roles, your beloved P-61 did not. So the inclusion of day/night tasked units doesn't  naturally warrant dedicating resources for a night only airplane.

 

From July 1944 until VE-Day the 422nd NFS was credited with 48 victories (see pages 352 and 353 of Queen of the Midnight Skies):

V-1 5 victories

Ju-87 3 victories

Ju-88 9 victories

Ju-188 7 victories

Do-217 3 victories

Me-410 1 victory

FW-190 3 victories

He-111 4 victories

Bf-110 5 victories

Ju-52 8 victories

Edited July 30, 2019 by busdriver

[=27=Davesteu]

1 hour ago, =27=Davesteu said:

Why the heck are you acting as if my post offended you?

7 minutes ago, busdriver said:

Simple...your advice as previously quoted...you know...this line 

23 hours ago, =27=Davesteu said:

Guys, let the Mosquito rest for now.

Eh, well, if that's offensive to you... feel free to be offended.

 

6 minutes ago, busdriver said:

I must admit I've gone back and re-read each Developer Diary Bodenplatte entry and failed to find your implication that the night air war is part of the campaign. I can't find that anywhere. I did search for Nachtschlachtgruppen https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/search/?q=Nachtschlachtgruppen but nowhere did I see where the Devs mentioned this, much less the night air war. You frequently use the term, but not the Devs.

 

11 minutes ago, busdriver said:

While the Nachtschlachtgruppen had day and night roles, your beloved P-61 did not. So the inclusion of day/night tasked units doesn't  naturally warrant dedicating resources for a night only airplane.

All variants of the Mosquito, but the recon, are out of the question then.

[sevenless]

12 hours ago, MiloMorai said:

It wasn't me who inserted the 'OUT OF MAP' text.

 

It was me basing my judgement on the old map. Since Jason has posted the new more detailed map we know Zellhausen is on the map SE of Hanau.

 

 

Edited July 30, 2019 by sevenless

[busdriver]

I plan to add in the career:

NSGr. 1 and NSGr. 2  - they had Ju 87 D-3/D-5 (special thanks =27=Davesteu for the info);

I., II., III./SG 4 and III./KG 51 (NSGr. 20) - they had Fw 190 F-8 (mod of A-8);

 

@=27=Davesteu Adding variants of Ju-87s and FW-190s to constitute Nachtschlachtgruppen per BlackSix is not the same as saying, we're building a night air combat campaign. Perhaps they are, but I remain skeptical. Those airplanes and units have daylight missions. If they're adding a night air campaign, what Allied night fighters have been announced?

 

As far as these Nachtschlachtgruppen being the main adversaries of the 422nd NFS as you posted. History records only 6 ( 3 Ju-87s and 3 FW-190s) of the 43 airplanes the 422nd was credited with. 

 

You and I shall remain at an impasse. Perhaps you can agree to ignore me and I shall ignore you.

 

Edited July 31, 2019 by busdriver

[sevenless]

On 7/26/2019 at 6:23 PM, busdriver said:

 

FB Mk.VIs would easily fit in this simulation. If Amiens is ~50 km SW off the BoBP map, then perhaps A.75 Cambrai/Epinoy which is ~70 km closer to Melsbroek, might be on the map. There were three Mosquito squadrons posted at A.75 on 1 Jan 45, 107 Sqdn, 305 Sqdn, 613 Sqdn each with approximately 20 FB Mk.VIs and the 417 ARF (repair facility with over 50 Mosquitos).

 

The addition of a flyable FB Mk.VI would be perfect for BoBP.

 

Absolutely. Mossie is a must have for the ETO, both for BoBP and Normandy.

[Voidhunger]

It would be nice to have recon mossie as a target for Me 262, but if its impossible to encounter her in bobp career I dont want it. But its true that i would rather have completely different plane to fight in my luftwaffe career than next variation of spitfire.

So stretch the map boundaries and add Arado and mossie as a collector plane

[LukeFF]

5 hours ago, busdriver said:

Adding variants of Ju-87s and FW-190s to constitute Nachtschlachtgruppen per BlackSix is not the same as saying, we're building a night air combat campaign. Perhaps they are, but I remain skeptical. Those airplanes and units have daylight missions. If they're adding a night air campaign, what Allied night fighters have been announced?

 

No Allied night fighters have been announced, that is correct, but night bombing missions have been a part of career mode for quite a while now. It's not a stretch to say, therefore, that such missions could be extended to nocturnal ground attack units - which is something I think will happen.

Edited July 31, 2019 by LukeFF

[Lusekofte]

5 hours ago, LukeFF said:

to nocturnal ground attack units - which is something I think will happen

My god I hope your right

[sevenless]

2 minutes ago, LuseKofte said:

My god I hope your right

 

We already have that within the U2 career. It is only consequent that they integrate it also in BoBP.

[EAF19_Marsh]

17 hours ago, =27=Davesteu said:

there is a great demand for the P-61

 

At base, if the team were to dedicate time and effort, a Mosquito would probably be mo' popular and hence generate mo' money. That is likely to be the key argument, as demonstrated by the decision regarding a 190 A-3 for BoS.

[Feathered_IV]

If it was implemented properly, a nightfighter variant of the Mosquito would work rather well within the game.  There are sufficient types of German aircraft for it to operate against, and the limited number that can be put into the air at one time wouldn't be such an issue at night.

[MiloMorai]

Will the radar in the a/c be historic or modern? Historic style radar might be to much for many.

[busdriver]

1 hour ago, Feathered_IV said:

If it was implemented properly, a nightfighter variant of the Mosquito would work rather well within the game.  There are sufficient types of German aircraft for it to operate against, and the limited number that can be put into the air at one time wouldn't be such an issue at night.

 

I would enjoy that. I would buy that. I would gift many of that. Likewise FB marks of 100 Group (albeit flying from the UK in support of Bomber Command) and 2nd TAF flew night airfield interdiction near cities included on the BoBP map. I'd happily buy a PR variant assuming a reconnaissance mission could be implemented. B marks might be slightly problematic (or not depending upon one's rigid adherence to all that is holy) in being UK based with a primary mission as the Pathfinder Force (with secondary small force diversionary raids). As an additional cash flow, the Mosquito would seem to be a no brainer.  Then again maybe cash flow is not a concern. I look at the way the Ju-52 was introduced, and scratch my cranium in wonder.

[=27=Davesteu]

3 hours ago, EAF19_Marsh said:

On 7/30/2019 at 12:06 AM, =27=Davesteu said:

there is a great demand for the P-61

At base, if the team were to dedicate time and effort, a Mosquito would probably be mo' popular and hence generate mo' money. That is likely to be the key argument, as demonstrated by the decision regarding a 190 A-3 for BoS.

I never wrote that or touched on the topic of popularity - you guys are putting words in my mouth!

That said, I disagree. After all, they are selling a Hs 129, U-2 and Ju 52.

 

The Fw 190 A-3 (P-40E, MC.202) argument is outdated. Collector aircraft released after the reworked career mode was announced fit the related timeframe, map, units and airfields. For BoBP you are left with one Mosquito PR unit and a few temporary NF detachments. Alternative: The P-61 used by 422d NFS, which combines the night fighter and intruder role.

 

Anyway, the Mitchell II, Ar 234 and Typhoon are way more important.

Edited July 31, 2019 by =27=Davesteu

[MiloMorai]

1 minute ago, =27=Davesteu said:

Anyway, the Mitchell II, Ar 234 and Typhoon are way more important.

 

Definitely the Typhoon. What airfields did the Ar234 fly from on the map? Volkel: 5-15 Sep 44: airfield infrastructure blown up, demolition teams and remaining personnel withdrew.

[=27=Davesteu]

(Parts of) III./KG 76 operated out of Achmer and Münster-Handorf; first mission flown on 24 Dec 1944.

[EAF19_Marsh]

1 hour ago, =27=Davesteu said:

(Parts of) III./KG 76 operated out of Achmer and Münster-Handorf; first mission flown on 24 Dec 1944.

 

I thought that they must have been somewhere on the map, given their activity. Price has a chapter on this in his Last Year Luftwaffe book

[Bremspropeller]

Imagine losing the critical engine at night when full of gas and carrying a 4000lb cookie...

 

https://www.pprune.org/aviation-history-nostalgia/473377-mosquito-asymmetric-handling-2.html

[MiloMorai]

What bases on the map did RAF Mitchells operate from? Did any USAAF 9th AF B-26s have airfields on the map?

[Lusekofte]

Why put a Typhoon and a Mosquito up against eachother?

I see no reason for not having both. 

The situation is unfortunately that we wont get the airplane that wins the discussion.

We might not get any. 

The developers is the one to manage recources, so we wont have to 

[LukeFF]

48 minutes ago, MiloMorai said:

What bases on the map did RAF Mitchells operate from?

 

Melsbroek

 

51 minutes ago, MiloMorai said:

Did any USAAF 9th AF B-26s have airfields on the map?

 

Pretty sure they did, but I don't know offhand what they would be.