The Hs-129 and the OMFG Factor!

[DetCord12B]

The flying window or anvil or brick (<- accurate) or whatever you want to call the aircraft is killing me. It's slow, lacks maneuverability and is fairly hard to control. So someone, someone here, has to have a lesson series or tutorials or something with regards on employing it.

 

Out of habit, I tend to come in at fairly level or extreme (Ju-87) angles of attack when using this aircraft. Unfortunately however, I tend to plant the bird right into the deck or a treeline somewhere and end up captured or crippled for life. Any advice on how to properly engage targets with the airframe...and survive?

[Finkeren]

I’m sure a lot of real life pilot shared your frustration. I can’t use this bird effectively either. It is sort of okay, when it comes to making strafing attacks (I’d still prefer an IL-2 any day of the week) but bombing with any degree of accuracy is just outside the scope of my abilities.

 

In the end I’m chalking it up to the fact, that this plane didn’t have a long production run and was rather unpopular in service. The Hs 129 we have seems to reflect this quite well.

[DetCord12B]

6 minutes ago, Finkeren said:

I’m sure a lot of real life pilot shared your frustration. I can’t use this bird effectively either. It is sort of okay, when it comes to making strafing attacks (I’d still prefer an IL-2 any day of the week) but bombing with any degree of accuracy is just outside the scope of my abilities.

 

In the end I’m chalking it up to the fact, that this plane didn’t have a long production run and was rather unpopular in service. The Hs 129 we have seems to reflect this quite well.

 

Maybe it's just you and me then? 

 

I mean they produced close to a thousand of these aircraft, so they had to have thought it merited some sort of...merit? Then again, this is the nation (Nazi Germany) that equipped the Wehrmacht with metallic gas mask canisters (while everyone else put it in a canvas bag) based solely on duplicity, nepotism, and dirty backhanded deals relegated industry friends of the elite in power that in turn deprived other manufactures much needed materials.    

[Finkeren]

Thing is: The RLM had nothing else to turn to. In 1941 they desperately needed a dedicated ground attack aircraft (or felt the need for it at least) The original contest had turned out only two designs that were passable, one from Henschel and one from Focke Wulf, and both were rather terrible, the Henschel coming in both overweight and underpowered compared to design specifications. The second prototype flew into the ground when it couldn’t recover from a shallow dive. 

 

The B model we have in the sim was actually a marked improvement over the initial production run because it swapped the pitiful Argus engines for the French Gnome-Rhônes, which increased the available horsepower by more than 50%, so you can imagine how bad it must have been.

 

Still, it was all the Luftwaffe had to go with until they finally abandoned the idea of having a dedicated cannon armed ground attack aircraft - as most other air forces did in the later parts on the war (except of course the VVS) 

[SAS_Storebror]

I've been fighting with the Henschel a couple of weeks until I figured how to deal with it, and now I must say it's not all that bad anymore.

Granted, three days ago I forgot to adjust fuel level and accidentally took off with 100% fuel plus gunpod plus bombs. That was something...

There are two very important things about the Henschel:

1. You need to switch prop pitch from auto to manual for takeoff and cruise flight.
   The first is so you can use full boost power on takeoff, the latter so you can have enough power while keeping the engine within continuous operation limits.
   Auto prop pitch (which is what you get when you jump the pilot seat) is good for climb and combat only.
    
2. Have a checklist at hands.
   Print it.
   Read it.
   Follow what's written there.
   It's just too many things you need to take care of than to do it without a proper checklist to cling to.
   Checklist is available e.g. here: https://www.sas1946.com/main/index.php/topic,58022.0.html

Cheers!

Mike

Edited April 21, 2018 by SAS_Storebror

[JtD]

I typically dive at targets at shallow angles of about 15° and give them a good long burst. In combat, I leave prop pitch at auto and fly 100%. It's the combat setting after all.

 

One of the historical advantages of the aircraft was high accuracy as a gunnery platform. In trials, pilots managed to put 60% of the rounds fired into a tank sized target, which is incredibly high, even for trials. That's a distinct advantage over aircraft like the Hurricane IID or Il-2, which were nowhere close to achieving that level of accuracy. In game, you also have this advantage. The Hs129 is very stable, easy to align with the target and it will stay there even in long bursts.

 

Since I'm typically late with my pull outs, I trim the aircraft nose up. Probably saved me a couple of virtual lives, to the point that right now I can't remember the last time I crashed the aircraft.

 

But as with everything - training is the key. In particular when you transition from another ground attack plane like the Ju87 or Il-2, you'll need time to adjust and learn to fly the Hs129 as a Hs129, not as the next iteration of the planes you're used to.

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

Dive bombing at steep angles is a bad idea since the aircraft is totally unsuited to it. If you want to drop bombs accurately you should use the Zieleinr

3 hours ago, Finkeren said:

I’m sure a lot of real life pilot shared your frustration. I can’t use this bird effectively either. It is sort of okay, when it comes to making strafing attacks (I’d still prefer an IL-2 any day of the week) but bombing with any degree of accuracy is just outside the scope of my abilities.

 

In the end I’m chalking it up to the fact, that this plane didn’t have a long production run and was rather unpopular in service. The Hs 129 we have seems to reflect this quite well.

ichtung instead.

 

 

 

 

For strafing with the Mk 103 your typical approach is from low to medium angles.

Most important is not to fall into target fixation since this aircraft will punish it with evil satisfaction.

 

2 hours ago, Finkeren said:

I’m sure a lot of real life pilot shared your frustration. I can’t use this bird effectively either.

The Romanians infact liked the Henschel a lot for it's reliability and good pilot protection. As for it's german use the primary complains were bad visibility (especially to the rear), the too cramped cockpit and manouvrebility (improved with the B over the A but still not satisfactory). But than the Henschel had more duties than anti tank where it managed to perform quite decent whereas ingame people expect it to be an awesome tank killer.

 

The Henschel was always doomed to be a 'low budget' aircraft due to the strict guidelines of the RLM not to use major components required for existing fighter and bomber production. It kind of resembles the airforce equivalent of the Marder series tank killers in the Wehrmacht.

 

 

Edited April 21, 2018 by 6./ZG26_5tuka

[Asgar]

5 hours ago, DetCord12B said:

lacks maneuverability and is fairly hard to control

it outturns yaks which keep trying to turn fight me and die and the controls are not that difficult, set mixture, set throttle, adust prop pitch to hold RPM 

[Bilbo_Baggins]

The problem with this airframe is the wings coming off like twigs. Very easy to shoot those Duck wings off.

[Yogiflight]

1 hour ago, 6./ZG26_Asgar said:

it outturns yaks which keep trying to turn fight me and die and the controls are not that difficult, set mixture, set throttle, adust prop pitch to hold RPM 

I don't fly MP, but in the career the russian fighters didn't have much fun attacking me, too. This slow little ugly flying thing turns like hell.

On a side note, with manual prop pitch, I constantly have to change it, as with changing speeds during turnfights, the RPMs are constantly going up and down.

Does anyone change the mixture during flights?

[JG4_Sputnik]

I like the Henschel

Had a blast flying it during the Stalingrad City Attack. It has somewhat the most fun engine management of all planes (at least on german side). It is not easy to perform well in it but somehow that is the whole fun!

1 hour ago, Yogiflight said:

I don't fly MP, but in the career the russian fighters didn't have much fun attacking me, too. This slow little ugly flying thing turns like hell.

On a side note, with manual prop pitch, I constantly have to change it, as with changing speeds during turnfights, the RPMs are constantly going up and down.

Does anyone change the mixture during flights?

 

Jep. For cruise the third stage for saving fuel and for take off the first stage. In battle the second stage (count from front). If you are in combat just go with auto pitch, you can fly about 30mins without damaging your engine (the rpms are real high, like 7500 but that is correct). So manual pitch is only for cruising speed. As soon as you attack or go to combat just set auto ptich and second stage in mixture, worked well for me for +10 sorties until I got shot down by a sneaky Rata.

[Guest deleted@50488]

For me it is great to train engine-out scenarios!

[danielprates]

On 21/04/2018 at 1:06 AM, Finkeren said:

I’m sure a lot of real life pilot shared your frustration. I can’t use this bird effectively either. It is sort of okay, when it comes to making strafing attacks (I’d still prefer an IL-2 any day of the week) but bombing with any degree of accuracy is just outside the scope of my abilities.

 

In the end I’m chalking it up to the fact, that this plane didn’t have a long production run and was rather unpopular in service. The Hs 129 we have seems to reflect this quite well.

 

That's my opinion too, it seems the plane mimics very well the real life counterpart, so as far as realism goes we have no complaints. Some people call this plane the 'german mosquito', but let's be real, it's far from it. The mosquito had a very dedicated developlment, was an innovative concept and proved to be an excellent plane afterall. The H129, however, always seemed to me as a sort of a 'makeshift' project of sorts. 

[ATAG_Flare]

3 minutes ago, danielprates said:

 

That's my opinion too, it seems the plane mimics very well the real life counterpart, so as far as realism goes we have no complaints. Some people call this plane the 'german mosquito', but let's be real, it's far from it. The mosquito had a very dedicated developlment, was an innovative concept and proved to be an excellent plane afterall. The H129, however, always seemed to me as a sort of a 'makeshift' project of sorts. 

Wow, it's far from the Mosquito.

 

Mossie: designed as a bomber. Duck: Designed as an attacker

Mossie: super fast. Duck: super slow

Mossie: very multi-role. Duck: one role

Mossie: best twin engine plane of WWII. Duck: about as good of a combat aircraft as an actual duck.

[danielprates]

15 minutes ago, ATAG_Flare said:

Wow, it's far from the Mosquito.

 

Mossie: designed as a bomber. Duck: Designed as an attacker

Mossie: super fast. Duck: super slow

Mossie: very multi-role. Duck: one role

Mossie: best twin engine plane of WWII. Duck: about as good of a combat aircraft as an actual duck.

 

Yeah. I think the compairson stems from the fact the germans probably were inspired by the mosquito's wooden construction. But the similarities stop there.

[JtD]

The Hs129 was of all metal construction.

[F/JG300_Gruber]

44 minutes ago, ATAG_Flare said:

Duck: about as good of a combat aircraft as an actual duck.

 

[AndyJWest]

1 hour ago, danielprates said:

 

Yeah. I think the compairson stems from the fact the germans probably were inspired by the mosquito's wooden construction. But the similarities stop there.

 

That would seem unlikely, given that the first Hs 129 prototype flew in  early 1939. Detailed design of the Mosquito only began months later.

[danielprates]

32 minutes ago, AndyJWest said:

 

That would seem unlikely, given that the first Hs 129 prototype flew in  early 1939. Detailed design of the Mosquito only began months later.

 

Im not 100% sure on this. Probably the original,  more generic specifications by the RLM are that old. Certainly not the early prototypes. In any case my whole point was that the compairson of both planes does NOT make sense,  so I guess we have the same idea.

[AndyJWest]

4 minutes ago, danielprates said:

 

Im not 100% sure on this. Probably the original,  more generic specifications by the RLM are that old. Certainly not the early prototypes. In any case my whole point was that the compairson of both planes does NOT make sense,  so I guess we have the same idea.

 

Nope. From Aircraft Profile 69: Henshel Hs 129.  Profile Books Ltd, 1982.

 

 

[Finkeren]

Yep, the Hs 129 was a pre-war design. The change of the engines from the A- to the B model and the overall very slow rate of production was what delayed its combat debut by more than two years.

[danielprates]

12 minutes ago, Finkeren said:

Yep, the Hs 129 was a pre-war design. The change of the engines from the A- to the B model and the overall very slow rate of production was what delayed its combat debut by more than two years.

 

Interesting,  I didnt know it was that old. Took a while to gear up production then! I read somewhere that using some non-essential engine was also a requirement. Was that one of the reasons it took that long to get into production? 

 

EDIT:  I ask this because it seems production started only when french engines became available. That would make the Hs129 a sort of a "plan B" sort of plane.

 

Also, @AndyJWest, interesting! The source mentions if it was intended as a wooden plane from the beggining?

Edited April 22, 2018 by danielprates

[GridiroN]

The Hs129 is a lovely little ground attacker. Perhaps I should make a short how-to video for it because it gives me no difficulty other than the 30mm gun only penetrating tanks in specific angles.

[Wolfram-Harms]

Watch this and you may see things differently....

 

 

[DetCord12B]

On 4/21/2018 at 12:45 AM, SAS_Storebror said:

I've been fighting with the Henschel a couple of weeks until I figured how to deal with it, and now I must say it's not all that bad anymore.

Granted, three days ago I forgot to adjust fuel level and accidentally took off with 100% fuel plus gunpod plus bombs. That was something...

There are two very important things about the Henschel:

1. You need to switch prop pitch from auto to manual for takeoff and cruise flight.
   The first is so you can use full boost power on takeoff, the latter so you can have enough power while keeping the engine within continuous operation limits.
   Auto prop pitch (which is what you get when you jump the pilot seat) is good for climb and combat only.
    
2. Have a checklist at hands.
   Print it.
   Read it.
   Follow what's written there.
   It's just too many things you need to take care of than to do it without a proper checklist to cling to.
   Checklist is available e.g. here: https://www.sas1946.com/main/index.php/topic,58022.0.html

Cheers!

Mike

 

I have to say the fuel load was the key. Running at a 100% not only severely taxes the engines but it kills its speed and maneuverability...obviously. So far in my career, I've managed to properly engage ground targets and down two Yak's. So, many, many thanks for the info!

[Finkeren]

10 hours ago, danielprates said:

 

Interesting,  I didnt know it was that old. Took a while to gear up production then! I read somewhere that using some non-essential engine was also a requirement. Was that one of the reasons it took that long to get into production? 

 

EDIT:  I ask this because it seems production started only when french engines became available. That would make the Hs129 a sort of a "plan B" sort of plane.

 

The small batch of A-0 preproduction were  underway when the new engines became available after the fall of France in June 1940. It had taken about a year from the first flight of the prototype until production started. That is not unusually long, though obviously during the war designs were pressed into production much faster.

 

However, there was no basis for actually making use of the A-0s. They were too few to form the basis of a unit, and they sucked so bad that pretty much all of the were sent back to the factory and converted to B-1s.

[Zippy-do-dar]

16 hours ago, ATAG_Flare said:

 Duck: about as good of a combat aircraft as an actual duck.

 

 

 

[ruby_monkey]

17 hours ago, ATAG_Flare said:

Wow, it's far from the Mosquito.

 

Mossie: designed as a bomber. Duck: Designed as an attacker

Mossie: super fast. Duck: super slow

Mossie: very multi-role. Duck: one role

Mossie: best twin engine plane of WWII. Duck: about as good of a combat aircraft as an actual duck.

 

This will be my nose art:

[Porkins]

My experience with the Duck in MP.

 

Shot down getting to target

Shot down getting to target

Made it to target, did not register a kill, shot down

Shot down getting to target

 

It is a death trap in MP. Kind of a fun/weird thing in SP though. 

[Finkeren]

I’ve been shot down by Hs 129s a couple of times in mp. If flown aggressively it can be every bit as deadly to an unwary attacker as the IL-2.

[Wolfram-Harms]

1 hour ago, Porkins said:

It is a death trap in MP.

 

Online MP is nowhere near the real war. All online aces have died hundreds of times,
but kept all the knowledge they collected in their previous lives. Kinda "Ace Zombies".

[Swing]

...and Historically, the sky was cleaned by the fighters before sending the Hs129's

[Wolfram-Harms]

Yes - or they had high cover by fighters.

[csThor]

In reality the VVS rarely ventured into german territory with its fighters - unless they were escorting Il-2s or bombers and even then most of these missions were flown only over the direct frontlines. That meant the Hs 129 rarely encountered soviet fighters - in 1942 the airspace was cleared by german fighters (as Swing said) and from 1943 on (with the switch to the aircraft being a dedicated tank-buster) the employment rules established by Oberstleutnant Weiss limited it to a kind of "flying AT-gun" to be employed only over german territory (Kursk was the sole exception here but even then the same circumstances apply as in 1942 - mostly because soviet employment of fighter forces played into german hands).

[Retrofly]

In MP its more of a death trap than the 87. That's all you need to know :D

[WheelwrightPL]

I wanted to like HS-129, in fact that was the main reason I bought Premium Edition BOK however it is a real dog in singleplayer. I get killed constantly in HS-129 after flying away from the train I just attacked. I do the same maneuver in a humble 109 and easily survive because I go at least 200km/h faster and the gunners cannot track me down. What is exactly the point of HS-129 if a run-of-the-mill fighter is more survivable in a ground attack mode where HS-129 is supposed to excel ?

Edited May 19, 2018 by WheelwrightPL

[ShamrockOneFive]

17 minutes ago, WheelwrightPL said:

I wanted to like HS-129, in fact that was the main reason I bought Premium Edition BOK however it is a real dog in singleplayer. I get killed constantly in HS-129 after flying away from the train I just attacked. I do the same maneuver in a humble 109 and easily survive because I go at least 200km/h faster and the gunners cannot track me down. What is exactly the point of HS-129 if a run-of-the-mill fighter is more survivable in a ground attack mode where HS-129 is supposed to excel ?

 

You can see at least one of the reasons why the Hs129 didn't exactly fill the ranks of dedicated close air support/anti-tank ground attackers. It wasn't particularly effective unless it was used in exactly the right way. Against unprotected tanks and vehicles it could do a pretty good job but it was otherwise quite vulnerable.

 

Just because its not a great airplane doesn't mean you can't necessarily have fun with it. Tactics need to be adjusted an a fair bit of just accepting it for what it is. Back in the day we used to call some aircraft "crap planes" as a sort of endearment. They weren't good but whatever victories you did get with them were that much more magnified.

[dkoor]

On 4/23/2018 at 11:22 PM, Wolfram-Harms said:

 

Online MP is nowhere near the real war. All online aces have died hundreds of times,
but kept all the knowledge they collected in their previous lives. Kinda "Ace Zombies".

 

Yeah, reminds me of Battlestar Galactica's notorious Cylon ace - Scar.

 

On 4/24/2018 at 11:58 AM, -DFA-Retrofly said:

In MP its more of a death trap than the 87. That's all you need to know :D

 

MP... I don't fly online at all nowadays, rarely fly offline too, but I see nothing really has changed that much from the old days of rather quake servers... full of fighters that try to achieve air superiority and engage in ever lasting air combat. That is no place for bombers or ground attacking aircraft such as Hs-129...

Curiously enough, one would thought that something "better" will emerge on online servers, perhaps some mix with AI where say some Ai fighters/bombers would exclusively look after objectives (if humans wont do it in the first place) with little to no loitering.

There were COOPs as good option for those interesting in recreating WW2 air combat as much realistic as possible, then and probably now.

 

Also I seem to remember one place where you actually could have some sort of career, flying for one side... also there was dynamic front etc. very cool and interesting stuff... unfortunately for my experience at that time I was just quitting old IL-2 Sturmo 1946... can't really remember the name of the place, was it something about Gennadich or not, after all this time I can't recall.

[7.GShAP/Silas]

23 minutes ago, dkoor said:

MP... I don't fly online at all nowadays, rarely fly offline too, but I see nothing really has changed that much from the old days of rather quake servers... full of fighters that try to achieve air superiority and engage in ever lasting air combat. That is no place for bombers or ground attacking aircraft such as Hs-129...

 

 

This just isn't true.  I fly ground attackers/bombers 95% of the time online and do it with success and have a ton of fun.  Where I fly there is also a dynamic front.  But the Hs-129 by its nature was not the best tool for the job, just the only one that could be cobbled together with the leftovers in the toybox.  It was never used in support of a spearhead of ground forces(at least not without total air superiority) .  It was used to attack Soviet ground forces during incursions into Axis territory with no enemy fighters present or kept at a distance by friendly fighter units.

 

In other words, the environment where the Hs-129 is NOT a second choice is difficult to cultivate, especially online where enemy tanks or dug in ground forces are typically going to be in... enemy territory.  You just need an absence of enemy fighters or powerful fighter escort and have the personal skills to deal with AA fire.

[Haza]

Just now, dkoor said:

 

Yeah, reminds me of Battlestar Galactica's notorious Cylon ace - Scar.

 

 

MP... I don't fly online at all nowadays, rarely fly offline too, but I see nothing really has changed that much from the old days of rather quake servers... full of fighters that try to achieve air superiority and engage in ever lasting air combat. That is no place for bombers or ground attacking aircraft such as Hs-129...

Curiously enough, one would thought that something "better" will emerge on online servers, perhaps some mix with AI where say some Ai fighters/bombers would exclusively look after objectives (if humans wont do it in the first place) with little to no loitering.

There were COOPs as good option for those interesting in recreating WW2 air combat as much realistic as possible, then and probably now.

 

Also I seem to remember one place where you actually could have some sort of career, flying for one side... also there was dynamic front etc. very cool and interesting stuff... unfortunately for my experience at that time I was just quitting old IL-2 Sturmo 1946... can't really remember the name of the place, was it something about Gennadich or not, after all this time I can't recall.

 

Dkoor,

 

I would strongly suggest that you try the Pe-2, as I'm sure that the Pe-2 in a few servers gets just as many PK's on Luftwaffe players as do the entire blue team combined get against VVS, plus the Pe-2 is able to get to a from the targets, so it perhaps would be ideal for you to try in MP. 

If only the other Allies had purchased the Pe-2, I'm sure that WW2 would have been finished in '43.

Just now, ShamrockOneFive said:

 

You can see at least one of the reasons why the Hs129 didn't exactly fill the ranks of dedicated close air support/anti-tank ground attackers. It wasn't particularly effective unless it was used in exactly the right way. Against unprotected tanks and vehicles it could do a pretty good job but it was otherwise quite vulnerable.

 

Just because its not a great airplane doesn't mean you can't necessarily have fun with it. Tactics need to be adjusted an a fair bit of just accepting it for what it is. Back in the day we used to call some aircraft "crap planes" as a sort of endearment. They weren't good but whatever victories you did get with them were that much more magnified.

 

Shamrock,

 

I hear what you are saying, however, having just completed a few missions with guys in the HS129, that fun soon runs out and the HS129 just becomes the hangar Queen.  I'm for all having fun, but there comes a point where others are having their fun at the expense of the HS129 guys or indeed any other blue CAS type aircraft simulated here. Therefore, although you might have this romantic notion about "crap planes", I think those of us who have played in the Hs129/110/87, are perhaps kind of over it, as there is only so many times that I will watch as my wing gets blown off or set on fire with one hit.  

 

PS.  Those CAS type attacks in the HS129 as above, were conducted with Escort and ended up the same way!!

 

Regards

 

Edited May 20, 2018 by Haza