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SLOW MOTION VOL.5 LAGG 23MM : IL-2 Sturmovik Battle of Stalingrad

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Magical ammo ..... very nice slow motion! Thank you. 

 

PS: I did not see a wing hit... did anyone see it?

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10 hours ago, MK_RED13 said:

Munição mágica ..... muito bom movimento lento! Obrigado. 

 

PS: Eu não vi um golpe de asa ... alguém viu?

I hit a single shot in the center of the nose of the plane resulting in the death of the pilot and shattering his cabin. The wing that was ripped out I believe might be the effect of explosive ammunition explosion, server connection problem or developer modeling error. I'm grateful to see you.

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Posted (edited)

Nothing new. But just feelings mate hahaha

 

One explossion and tail, Wing, Pilot, and engine dead. Even the 30 mk108 cant do that. 109 is made by butter on this game. 

Edited by E69_geramos109
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Posted (edited)

Well, there were 2 explosions in the very center of the Messerschmitt, if I counted right.

The main wing spar goes through the center there, and the pilot sits there.
The sim counts that as a pretty serious damage on the wing section, I guess - and simulates a wing failure.

This may not always come out the way we'd expect, but hey - it's not THAT wrong, is it?

 

EDIT: I counted wrong - it was just one hit, when I reviewed it. Sorry.

 

 

Edited by Wolfram-Harms

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On 5/21/2018 at 2:00 PM, 150GCT_Veltro said:

Realmente um ótimo filme, auto explicando.

THX!

On 5/21/2018 at 3:25 PM, Wolfram-Harms said:

Bem, houve duas explosões no centro do Messerschmitt, se eu contasse direito.

A longarina principal passa pelo centro e o piloto fica lá.
O sim conta isso como um dano muito sério na seção da asa, eu acho - e simula uma falha de asa.

Isso pode nem sempre sair do jeito que esperávamos, mas ei - não é tão errado, é?

 

EDIT: eu contei errado - foi apenas um hit, quando eu revi isso. Desculpa.

Thanks for comment. Interesting explanation!

 

 

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Posted (edited)

Actually, not all bullets are tracers.  I count at least 4 HE cannon hits. Two in rapid succession at the motor.  1 at the fuselage just before the wing root, and 1 on the rear fuselage just below the numbers. If this was a HE + AP loadout and (assuming) every 10th round was tracer, that would mean at least 8 cannon shells actually hit.  Not so SCI-FI at all really.

 

(Edit: I looked at the video again. By the timing of the next cannon tracer, that flies just aft of the 109, I'm going to assume every 20th round is the tracer. That means even more cannon rounds hit.  Add to that the machine gun rounds that hit too, and blammo! - Dead 109.)

 

Edited by Mobile_BBQ
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3 hours ago, 307_Tomcat said:

Just count  the shells in the reply.

this. 2 shells. 1 shell from the one that hit and one from the one that missed.
So YES. That ammo is obviusously totally superior.

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Posted (edited)

Some people here got some trouble...

 

We see one hit (with tracer) but there is obviously more because the rate of fire of Vya-23 is 550 shells per minute.

We see two tracers in this burst meaning there is a lot more without tracers...

 

It is true however that we see only one hit but the game engine is not perfectly done to representent all hits.

It doesn't change the fact that Vya-23 is a very powerful gun closer of 30mm shells than 20mm

 

Where was it made ? If online, is there flight statistics ?

Edited by 64sTomio_VR
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Posted (edited)

[Edited]

 

 

Edited by SYN_Haashashin
One more and rules will be applied. You posted the same 3 times even if it was deleted....

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Either that or netcode made the 109 "collide" with him. I've seen that a lot on WoL. 

 

Though in this case there's something most of you are missing.

 

It's a head on. The shell vs plane velocity is more important in Il2 BoX than most people expect. A single HE won't do much from the rear, but if fired from perpendicular or head on it can easily saw the wing off (never seen it 1 shot the wing root on a 109 before but midwing and wingtip). AP will just go straight through anyway. It may be that the HE round is considered "stopped" by the wing (even if it'd go through) because the explosion is static with regards to the airframe.

 

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People trying to find excuses on netcode or advanced fisics that are suposed to be modeled just to justify that the power of the gun is the normal one. But on the other hand you have videos about 3 explosive mk108 hitting spit wigs without riping it and the is not commenst about oh. 2 tracers then the spit had more than 3 hits. 

Im tired of that coincidences and mistakes and the ovious things that are not well done take ages to be prooved that are wrong. 

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3 hours ago, E69_geramos109 said:

People trying to find excuses on netcode or advanced fisics that are suposed to be modeled just to justify that the power of the gun is the normal one. But on the other hand you have videos about 3 explosive mk108 hitting spit wigs without riping it and the is not commenst about oh. 2 tracers then the spit had more than 3 hits. 

Im tired of that coincidences and mistakes and the ovious things that are not well done take ages to be prooved that are wrong. 

I've never seen that video. Would you mind posting a link to it? 

 

In reality, it only takes only one well-placed cannon shot to rip a wing off.  But, also in reality there's a bit of random luck involved. I mean look at all the pilots who returned home only to see that the damage to their plane should have killed them.

 

I think it's very feasible that the damage done in the video was accurate. I'm not trying to justify anything as being balanced or unbalanced.  If I was going to do that, I'd be ranting about how players who prefer Axis have a higher likelihood of refusing to balance teams on servers, need to be forced to balance teams, and how it's consistently been that way since IL-2 '46.

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Posted (edited)
17 hours ago, Mobile_BBQ said:

I've never seen that video. Would you mind posting a link to it? 

 

In reality, it only takes only one well-placed cannon shot to rip a wing off.  But, also in reality there's a bit of random luck involved. I mean look at all the pilots who returned home only to see that the damage to their plane should have killed them.

 

I think it's very feasible that the damage done in the video was accurate. I'm not trying to justify anything as being balanced or unbalanced.  If I was going to do that, I'd be ranting about how players who prefer Axis have a higher likelihood of refusing to balance teams on servers, need to be forced to balance teams, and how it's consistently been that way since IL-2 '46.

Is on this post. 

but the video seems to be deleted. There is other with the spit flying with one wing. 

 

 

 

I have tested also the 30mm by myself on other planes and it takes more than 1 hit in a lot of times. 

Edited by E69_geramos109

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Posted (edited)

2. This forum is provided by 1C-777 Ltd. as a courtesy and its usage is a privilege and 1C-777 Ltd. reserves the right to ban any member temporarily or permanently for any reason at any time. Any penalties listed below for violations of the rules are guidelines only and forum administration may take additional action if they feel it is warranted. Use of the forum is not connected to usage of the game and access to this forum is not guaranteed to users as a consequence of purchasing the game.

 

4. The forum is not pre-moderated and objectionable material may occur without our knowledge; messages posted on the forum have not previously been viewed and have not been edited by forum administration. However, forum administration and moderators reserve the right to edit messages after being posted.
 
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First offense - 1 day ban on entry

 
 

Edited by SYN_Haashashin
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On ‎7‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 11:32 AM, E69_geramos109 said:

Is on this post. 

but the video seems to be deleted. There is other with the spit flying with one wing. 

 

 

 

I have tested also the 30mm by myself on other planes and it takes more than 1 hit in a lot of times. 

 

To be honest, I don't know about the in-game modeling.  I do know that in reality, all it takes is a single bullet of any adequate size to potentially take down a plane.  If the 37mm cannon is a one-hit wing killer 100 percent of the time, I'd say that's not right.  I don't think it had that kind of result in real life, but the probability of it causing that kind of damage is higher than a 20mm shell. 

 

The Spitfire video however...  I don't know if there are any pilot reports or returned planes with this kind of damage, but I do believe a Spitfire with a good portion of the wing ripped off can still fly.  After all, the intact half of the wing probably still accounts for a decent amount of lift compared to the thinner (lost) wingtip. I don't know if one could fly with this kind of damage though.  The pilot might have just enough lift left to get closer to home by a few minutes of travel or stabilize the plane enough so he doesn't hit the plane while bailing out, but returning to base seems highly unlikely.

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As Tomio pointed out: The Vya23 spits 550 rounds per minute (at it's slowest incarnation), that's about 9 bullets in a second. The empty shells that are ejected can't be used as a reference as one can easily tell they're linked to the tracer rounds (I guess for performance reasons). A common rule that people constantly ignore: DON'T use visual information as your only basis for arguing! Visual Damage models, hit decals and whatnot often are imprecise.

 

So, going by the on-target time in the video, there must have been more than one hit on the plane, likely across the fuselage. That would explain the damage to the rudder and probably the cockpit hit. 109 canopies fly off very easily, that's fishy in my opinion.

 

About the wing shot-off: I would assume the first hit that drew the explosion was in the center spar area and the game engine simply used the breaking point further out to represent the wingoff? Does the 109 have a modelled wing break-off closer to the fuselage? If yes, then there might be something fishy there as well.

 

About the efficiency of guns: It's well known that in the game, kinetic power trumps the emulated explosive damage in ammo (more on that later). Let's take a look at the kinetic energy these bullets hold (formular: 0.5 * mass(in kg) * speed^2 (in m/s)= x J ), true boffins will hopefully strike me down and correct me if I did some error somewhere:

 

Vya23 (muzzle velocity 905 m/s, projectile mass 198g http://www.russianammo.org/Russian_Ammunition_Page_25mm.html😞

0.5 * 0.198 kg * (905 m/s)^2 = 81.083 kJ

 

30mm Mineshell (muzzle velocity 505 m/s, projectile mass 330g https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/MK_108😞

0.5 * 0.330 kg * (505 m/s)^2 = 42.079 kJ

 

From a pure kinetic standpoint (aka, if we ignore explosive filling ), the Vya23 projectile is twice as powerful as the Mshell (because speed trumps the mass in the equation, blame physics). Assuming the game engine models this in DM, the Vya does have the upper hand in the kinetic department. It doesn't help that the heavier 30mm should lose speed quicker than the 20mm. That means that the further away you hit, the better the Vya23 should become compared to the generally slower german guns (Lagg3 Vya23 snipers anyone?).

 

Now the critical part is the explosive filler that actually gave the Mshell its lethality and we know the current DM does not model explosive damage well. From what I remember reading, it simulates explosive damage as a sorta fragmentation round where the exploding HE spawns many invisible subprojectiles with an unknown mass and speed. The bigger the HE filler, the more projectiles spawned afaik (somebody got a source from the devs to this?).

 

To sum this up: As things stand, we can't with accuracy determine how well the german ammo stands up to the russian ones. There are too many unknowns (HE modelling, speed and mass of the HE spawned projectiles and whatnot) to do that. Going by (subjective) observations, consensus seems to be that AP bullets are better than HE ones which could be due to what I wrote above which would generally favour the russian guns. As a counterexample for the russian side, look at the 37mm nose cannon of the P39. I had cases where a 109 took 3 hits from that beast and it kept flying.

The question remains how far behind the german guns are compared to the russian (Mg151 being percieved as the best, not surprisingly being also the gun with the highest muzzle velocity). There was a thread on the forum that compared them counting single shots till dewing for different planes that kinda put them about equal (they didn't look at distance afaik). Going simply by kill counts on the servers, things seem to be more or less equal.

 

So yes, germans are probably currently somewhat disadvantaged in the guns department. By how much and under what conditions, we can't tell. Still, for both sides, there are the occasional one-hit-wonders, so it's not a mile long distance either. So stop with the conspiracy theories and voice to the devs that you wish for improvements in the HE damage modelling. That would benefit everyone and make the sim better overall.

 

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Posted (edited)
On 5/21/2018 at 5:48 PM, E69_geramos109 said:

109 is made by butter on this game. 

 

Same material as the [edited] egos?

Edited by SYN_Haashashin
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Posted (edited)
21 hours ago, Jade_Monkey said:

 

Same material as the [edited] egos?

 

Relevant video to the "ruggedness" discussion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-v5aMayFrRE

 

20mm will [edited] your plane if it hits you. There is nothing on your plane that resists that kind of firepower. Most armour plates were aimed at blocking 8mm caliber bullets if they were there to begin with. This goes for a 109 as much as it goes for a IL2. The only difference is how much of it it can take until a critical structural failure happens and looking at the 109 one should should notice that the plane doesn't have much meat on its bones as compared to for example a P47.

 

Thin and flimsy = falls apart quicker but usually required to have a fast and nimble fighter. And the 109 doesn't take less punishment as compared to the yak or the spitfire.

Edited by SYN_Haashashin

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On ‎7‎/‎15‎/‎2018 at 6:13 AM, Mauf said:

 

Relevant video to the "ruggedness" discussion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-v5aMayFrRE

 

20mm will [edited] your plane if it hits you. There is nothing on your plane that resists that kind of firepower. Most armour plates were aimed at blocking 8mm caliber bullets if they were there to begin with.

 

Yes, but... Most planes of this era are structural ribbing covered by canvas or aluminum sheet metal.  There's actually a lot of hollow space on the inside. Provided the main structural supports or control mechanisms (wires, hydraulics, pneumatics - what have you) aren't hit and the bullet hits a "hollow spot" there's a chance it will make a hole in the sheeting but not really cause a lot of damage.  If the bullet is an explosive shell and hits far enough away from important structure, there's a chance the explosion will dissipate in the empty area.  Sure, shrapnel will fly, but most of it will only puncture the aircraft's skin from the inside out.  If a pilot is hit in armor plating behind his seat and the shell doesn't have enough energy to punch through on impact, there's a chance the explosion will be redirected back into the hollow space of the fuselage tail section. 

 

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On 7/13/2018 at 7:46 PM, Mauf said:

As Tomio pointed out: The Vya23 spits 550 rounds per minute (at it's slowest incarnation), that's about 9 bullets in a second. The empty shells that are ejected can't be used as a reference as one can easily tell they're linked to the tracer rounds (I guess for performance reasons). A common rule that people constantly ignore: DON'T use visual information as your only basis for arguing! Visual Damage models, hit decals and whatnot often are imprecise.

<snip>

On 7/13/2018 at 7:46 PM, Mauf said:

 

 

Good post. I would just add that in the context of the video - a head on shot - the closing speed of the planes is material. If each of them are at 350kph (the IAS of the Lagg) that equals 97 m/s each, so an additional velocity at impact of 194 m/s to add to the 905 m/s for the gun (less a tiny bit for drag deceleration) ie 21% higher velocity at impact or 46% higher KE!   Hit two, get one free, so to speak.

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Mobile_BBQ said:

 

Yes, but... Most planes of this era are structural ribbing covered by canvas or aluminum sheet metal.  There's actually a lot of hollow space on the inside. Provided the main structural supports or control mechanisms (wires, hydraulics, pneumatics - what have you) aren't hit and the bullet hits a "hollow spot" there's a chance it will make a hole in the sheeting but not really cause a lot of damage.  If the bullet is an explosive shell and hits far enough away from important structure, there's a chance the explosion will dissipate in the empty area.  Sure, shrapnel will fly, but most of it will only puncture the aircraft's skin from the inside out.  If a pilot is hit in armor plating behind his seat and the shell doesn't have enough energy to punch through on impact, there's a chance the explosion will be redirected back into the hollow space of the fuselage tail section. 

 

 

Yes... and mostly no... as so often with such a topic: It's more complicated. The modern WW2 monocoque planes actually needed the aluminium skin as a structural component, the 109 and the spit wings for example would become unstable without enough parts of the skin, the internal ribs and spars were not enough to hold it together. That's why you couldn't replace the skins with canvas anymore (the last plane to do that was probably the Hurricane and it benefited in damage resilience against Mineshells thanks to that according to anecdotal evidence, it was never systematically tested to my knowledge). Using the skin as structural components allows the designers to shave away a lot of internal structure, making the plane lighter and cheaper to produce. Further: AP bullets or shrapnel from fragmentation rounds did not sufficiently damage the skin even after several hits in an area to compromise the integrity. So it was a good design choice overall.

 

This is where the Mineshell design for the HE ammo comes in. The monocoque design was constructed in compartments, and these compartments were susceptible to explosions since they presented a closed volume. So with the Mineshell, they went and kicked any idea of directly damaging the internal structure (outside of maybe direct hits and the minimal shrapnel a Mshell produces) and simply created a really big explosion that not only punctured the aluminium skin but outright ripped it off in huge swaths. Internal structures weren't the target anymore. There's a direct relationship with the volume of the compartment hit and the size of the Mineshell explosive load. That reflected in the different numbers of hits needed to bring down a fighter as compared to a B17 for example. B17 had much more volume which needed more explosives to build up the pressure to cause the critical damage. Hence the development of the 30mm and bigger even.

 

So this is what probably a lot of people miss in this kind of discussion: Mineshells (which most German HE bullets were during the war) work on a different principle than an allied HE bullet. The allied HE load wasn't meant to overload the skin shell but instead was a functional part of a fragmentation mechanism (think of a shotgun blast). The allied bullet concepts focussed much more on incendiary combined with AP principles (aka, kill it with fire!) which is not a dumb move either since planes often are huge canisters of highly flammable fluids that couldn't be armored. Apples and Oranges and it's why this current debate here is not really solved by just cranking up some numbers for the Mineshell and we're all happy. It probably requires it's own separate damage model parallel to the current one to represent the monocoque compartments. There's a whole lot of manpower required to get this right and as always: That's a short commodity.

Edited by Mauf

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On 7/9/2018 at 12:12 PM, 64sTomio_VR said:

Some people here got some trouble...

 

We see one hit (with tracer) but there is obviously more because the rate of fire of Vya-23 is 550 shells per minute.

We see two tracers in this burst meaning there is a lot more without tracers...

 

It is true however that we see only one hit but the game engine is not perfectly done to representent all hits.

It doesn't change the fact that Vya-23 is a very powerful gun closer of 30mm shells than 20mm

 

Where was it made ? If online, is there flight statistics ?

All my videos are online matches. The video was made from a game played on the Wings Server but I am missing many months of the game and I will not remember when that flight was made. The date and more or less the date of the publication of the video, maybe in the official website of the Wings would give to have access to the statistics
Thank you all for the comments

On 5/21/2018 at 2:00 PM, 150GCT_Veltro said:

Really a great movie, self explaining.

 

THANK YOU

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23 hours ago, =BR=Xipan_BR_X said:

All my videos are online matches.


You just have the answer to your question ! This subject is a debate since day one of the game and several case (I won't do your job and find the necrology of the posts) have proven that the main problem with with disparity of ingame guns is mainly due to he ONLINE factor

Try to reproduce the same thing in solo vs Ai and you'll see. Latency, sync problems favor a lot high muzzle velocity weapon and the 23mm even more, due to the conjonction of high velocity and High explosive ammo Problem never came from modelization but from server related problems. 

Main complaints about mg 151 vs Shvak or Yva  can be dismissed once you try the guns in solo. Mg 151 is a devastating weapon, but having a lower velocity, it the most disadvantaged by ping issues. 

The more time the bullet take to reach target, especially at high speed or angle, the more, the few miliseconds of difference between players will matter. 
 

What your video shows is what Happened ON THE COMPUTER of the person recording … different thing that what happened on the other guy computer, different thing on server side. 
How many time have you seen in online game the "Puffs and explosion" of your shells without any significant impact on your target ? I guess a lot like many of us for the past 4 years. 

Do not blame BIAS or developing team. Server used by all of the "main stream" online campaign are just not enough, but no one can blame them for this regarding the costs of such hardware, not mentioning DSserver software issues.

NOTE: you have the same kind of problems on most of FPS games, some of them solving the issue with "prediction algorithms", but like the first titanfall (I read an interesting article about this specific subject) the frequency of refreshment of servers is the major issue, and only Mainstream game like battlefield (and other famous licenses) with dedicated server supported by developer can have sufficient hardware to avoid that kind of problems, while not having to deal with the complex physic of a flight simulator. 

Keep faith, We can hope in the near future, with the expansion of the license and player base, Online Servers will improve.

 

S!

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On 7/21/2018 at 10:14 PM, LAL_Trinkof said:

Main complaints about mg 151 vs Shvak or Yva  can be dismissed once you try the guns in solo. Mg 151 is a devastating weapon, but having a lower velocity, it the most disadvantaged by ping issues

 

Not true.

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Posted (edited)

Latency??? Muhehehehe.. it is not about latency.. [edited] Try to count how many times I hit the La 5....  

 

 

Edited by SYN_Haashashin
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