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Me-109 sustained turn rate

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Hi Haza! Thanks for your wise words. Im not too passionate about 109,. But i like it and have flown most, so i know the simulated 109g2 well.

Now the109 feeling is not the same as it have allways been. At least for me. And its not so fun as it used to be. I still like this game.

 

Now when i want something similar as the 109 dogfight feeling was, i will take yak7. lol

Edited by VesseL
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Just now, VesseL said:

Hi Haza! Thanks for your wise words. Im not too passionate about 109,. But i like it and have flown most, so i know the simulated 109g2 well.

Now the109 feeling is not the same as it have allways been. At least for me. And its not so fun as it used to be. I still like this game.

 

Now when i want something similar as the 109 dogfight feeling was, i will take yak7. lol

 

Vessel,

 

To be honest and now feeling a hypocrite, I now have to eat those apparent wise words as there is only so much that I will take.  I have always been a player that has tried to level sides and as such I have usually played red on WOL,  however,  I have noticed of late and certainly during my time-zone, there has been a shift of players now playing red, that has caused me to play more blue to keep the sides level.  Indeed now I get called a blue fanatic or a wehraboo if I question anything about blue and usually from those displaying some sort of insignia that clearly displays that they have a yearning for one side or the other, yet have the audacity to call me names.  

 

Therefore, I'm now in your camp regarding game play.  I have just taken a La5FN (without sound as had the sound bug) and right away on the WOL server, playing the La5FN feels like I'm on rails and I trimmed it out whilst I put the kettle on and I came back to find it level (without auto-level needed) and it feels nothing like the blue aircraft.  Therefore, perhaps I will now continue to play red again, as it would appear that the majority of Blue fighter aircraft do not have the same maneuverability as the red aircraft and certainly on WOL, reds winning has just become the norm.  I have no idea if the aircraft in this game are 100% accurate or even 50% accurate as we perhaps will never know exactly what we have.  

 

Unfortunately, there is nothing I can prove or provide the Devs to change the blue aircraft or indeed the red aircraft, however, there is only a finite amount of time that I can watch a red aircraft in a dive doing +600 pull up in front of me, loop over and gain the advantage, before I think, "*ugger it", I'm going to play red from now on.  At the end of the day, as I've said before this is a game, although we have those who still refer to themselves as fighter pilots, beat their chests about how good they are or tell me that no Sqn or group would want me as I'm rubbish and that is fine as I'm an adult playing a PC game who doesn't need to feel wanted by a virtual group as I'm no longer in that prepubescent stage and haven't been for a long time. 

 

However, the one thing that I would really like to see the Dev complete is limiting the number of control levers etc that can be operated at one go.  I believe, speaking to a fellow player, he mentioned that it was called  anthropomorphic control.  Basically you can't operate a number of control systems at the same time as is allowed in this game, as a pilot only has two hands and as such can't do multiple taskings that perhaps you can do with a HOTAS system. This to me perhaps is another example of where, for me, this sim doesn't accurately provide this essential human machine interface and as such, the technology difference between aircraft becomes even more grey and the auto systems on blue aircraft no longer give an advantage (whether true or not).  The example of being able to lower the flaps in the I-16 whilst lowering the under carriage whilst using the throttle, whilst closing cooling flaps and still flying the aircraft perhaps might be an aircraft for an octopus, but not for a real human.  

 

However, I'm still clinging to the fact that Jason will resolve all of these issues and as such I have invested in Bodenplatte and will hope that the next generation of flight sim takes us to the next level and would encourage you to also to have this same belief.  However, once bitten, twice shy?  Only time will tell

 

 

Regards 

Edited by Haza
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24 minutes ago, Haza said:

However, the one thing that I would really like to see the Dev complete is limiting the number of control levers etc that can be operated at one go.  I believe, speaking to a fellow player, he mentioned that it was called  anthropomorphic control.  Basically you can't operate a number of control systems at the same time as is allowed in this game, as a pilot only has two hands and as such can't do multiple taskings that perhaps you can do with a HOTAS system. This to me perhaps is another example of where, for me, this sim doesn't accurately provide this essential human machine interface and as such, the technology difference between aircraft becomes even more grey and the auto systems on blue aircraft no longer give an advantage (whether true or not).  The example of being able to lower the flaps in the I-16 whilst lowering the under carriage whilst using the throttle, whilst closing cooling flaps and still flying the aircraft perhaps might be an aircraft for an octopus, but not for a real human.  

 

LOL, this again? No, no, no, no, no. Go ask the players who've flown Cliffs of Dover how well that feature worked out.

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Just now, LukeFF said:

 

LOL, this again? No, no, no, no, no. Go ask the players who've flown Cliffs of Dover how well that feature worked out.

 

LukeFF,

 

If we all took this attitude of hiding under the rocks because something hadn't worked before, we would perhaps still be in the dark ages.  I care little for what has happened in the past, but would like to look forward to the future and the possibilities to ensure that we get a flight sim that is as near to the real thing as possible and not just a flight sim that looks pretty and has nice skins!  

 

PS  I have completed nearly 5000 hrs in Cliffs so have no cause to ask others!

 

Regards

Edited by Haza
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1 hour ago, LukeFF said:

 

LOL, this again? No, no, no, no, no. Go ask the players who've flown Cliffs of Dover how well that feature worked out.

 

I am all in favour of it, but to make it work you need to be able to see the pilot body and hands in the cockpit, so that it is clear that the the reason a control is not moving immediately when a key is pressed is that the pilot's hand is still busy completing the last task, not that the game is bugged or your HOTAS is not working .

 

BoX already has elements of anthropomorphic control - as in representing the increasing forces required to move control surfaces as speed increases - it is just not consistent in it's implementation philosophy. 

 

  

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2 hours ago, Haza said:

that the majority of Blue fighter aircraft do not have the same maneuverability as the red aircraft and certainly on WOL, reds winning has just become the norm.

 

This is nothing new. The difference is sometimes so obvious, that one might think that the different planes come from different games.

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S!

 

The basic reason why the anthropomorphic controls were less than ideal in CloD was because of controllers back in the day. Using pots instead of hall sensors. And we all know how pots tend to spike or be inaccurate causing all kind of anomalies. Pilot workload is not an issue in any game except maybe partially in CloD, if you enable this control. You can do several simultaneous tasks a real pilot could not with your fancy and dandy HOTAS in all other games.  

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Lets see when we can get a review of the fms by devs but some of the planes  have some great inacuracies that are claiming to be solved for a long time. 

This post is about turn rate and what also surprise me is how easy is to control red planes on low speed combats. With 109 you really have to fight with torque, slats seems to break you on the air instead of sustaining flaps make you to fall like a brick and you just have no control at some speeds and the power weight advantage is not noticeable if some hanging. 

With a yak everything is so stable no torke, you can move the plane hanging and having control to point the plane where you want, no torque and if you put flaps you can loop on a brick sooo stable and with no flaps. La5 is also way more stable at turning or making barrel rolls etc than 109s. Slats seems to be working and not making you to fall from sky.

If you put everything that is wrong toguether you can easelly understand why so much people is claiming for bias. Damage model, high speed manovers prooved that are wrong with the manuals, radiators not working on 109s, wrong prop fm on the 109... etc etc. Even the new G14 has wrong model on the MW50 system and maybe will be other thing there on the list for a long time. 

 

On my opinion they should make a big review of the game solving bugs and improving overall things. Even if that delays a little the new releases but i would preffer to have a good base and finished products and planes rather than releasing everything no matter how bugged is and leaving the repairs for the future.

 

Edited by E69_geramos109
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5 hours ago, LLv34_Flanker said:

S!

 

The basic reason why the anthropomorphic controls were less than ideal in CloD was because of controllers back in the day. Using pots instead of hall sensors. And we all know how pots tend to spike or be inaccurate causing all kind of anomalies. Pilot workload is not an issue in any game except maybe partially in CloD, if you enable this control. You can do several simultaneous tasks a real pilot could not with your fancy and dandy HOTAS in all other games.  

 

Anthropomorphic controls was, is, and always will be a solution in search of a problem. It was never, ever anything I heard the community complain about when the original IL2 was at the height of its popularity.

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Geramos, with all respect, also the Yak fans suffering on some aspects of fidelity level. If you compare the water and oil cooler model, of Yak 1 69/127 with the Yak 7.

In the Yak 7 you has the pleasure of the management, maybe like in the real one. Both Yak 1 suffering in some situations, on to low temperatures. Values like speed and climb time are on new level of accurecy in the Yak 7. If I understand the DD186 correctly, the devs plan to improve the other/older planes by the time. So you see, not only the 109 jockeys waiting for improvements.

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S!

 

I do not see a problem with having gamey controls in a game :) Just pointed out we can do a lot more with our HOTAS than a real pilot ever could and a lot faster. 

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10 hours ago, LukeFF said:

 

Anthropomorphic controls was, is, and always will be a solution in search of a problem. It was never, ever anything I heard the community complain about when the original IL2 was at the height of its popularity.

 il2 original was coded in1999. Clodo was (badly 😛 )coded in2010...
il2 original requested the full capacity of CPu's and rams for at least 5 years in the row (i started il2 original on a monocore AMD athlon1.7 and 256Ram in 2001 (2002?) )
Calcuation capacity has increased like 100 times in those10 years, ram speed and size also. Cpu buffers are like nothing compared to what when il2 original was coded.
Anthropo stuff wouldn't be any bottleneck for the cpu, it wasn't even for Clodo.
Being able to execute pilot's tasks like the pilot had 4 hands is a actually a problem. it removes all the automatisation's advantage some planes had.
So yeah, i'm fully for the anthropomorphic system but like said above: with pilots hands and feet visible (or even a ghost mode) and i'm also fully for the pilot's fatigue.
Seeing 10minutes 3G and more furballs is sooooooo really realistic...🤔

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On the other hand, a simple thing like looking and scanning is a hard task in sims and requires a lot of "unatural" behaviour like switching fov and zooming only to spot what you could spot in real life without having to  manipulte keys or other devices. Even mastering a tracker device can be difficult for a beginner, and i am not talking about using it for combat....Disorientation due to zooming, lack of situation awareness due to this makes it a pain for beginners, even if, after years of practice, we veterans tend to forget about it.

 

 

Edited by Caudron431Micha

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2 hours ago, JV69badatflyski said:


Seeing 10minutes 3G and more furballs is sooooooo really realistic...🤔

 

Or my personal favorite, 109 doing negative 4 G sustained  for longer than there is fuel in feed lines  :crazy:

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9 hours ago, L3Pl4K said:

Geramos, with all respect, also the Yak fans suffering on some aspects of fidelity level. If you compare the water and oil cooler model, of Yak 1 69/127 with the Yak 7.

In the Yak 7 you has the pleasure of the management, maybe like in the real one. Both Yak 1 suffering in some situations, on to low temperatures. Values like speed and climb time are on new level of accurecy in the Yak 7. If I understand the DD186 correctly, the devs plan to improve the other/older planes by the time. So you see, not only the 109 jockeys waiting for improvements.

I know i told some planes. I am complaining about 109 becuase is the plane I know more but for sure red planes fms need quite a big review on the fm

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