Bodenplatte early access

[J2_Trupobaw]

Weren't most Me-262 airframes used as fast bomber/ground attack plane? In BoB, I suspect it will be airfield attack.

[EAF19_Marsh]

Quote

Nice fantasy campaign idea! And I'm saying that because I'm not to certain that the mk IXs the Russians received ever saw combat..

 

JG 7 was forming from the remains of Kommando Nowotny, KG 51 flew the aircraft as fighter-bombers.

Edited April 2, 2018 by EAF19_Marsh

[Porkins]

3 hours ago, AndyJWest said:

 

Galland's autobiography is more than a little self-serving, and should be read with a sceptical eye.

No doubt, but I thought it had some really interesting stories about the 262.

[EAF19_Marsh]

16 minutes ago, Porkins said:

No doubt, but I thought it had some really interesting stories about the 262.

 

But should be taken with a lot of salt and are held to account by other research.

[Kurfurst]

On 2018. 04. 02. at 3:12 PM, 56RAF_Talisman said:

Correct me if I am wrong folks, but I thought that the only Me 262 combat flying in 1944 was done by a special tactical trials and evaluation unit (Nowotny and others), with a very limited number aircraft (approximately 30).  I thought that the Me 262 was only released for general service, by standard operational combat units, a couple of months into 1945.  I stand to be corrected on any of this, but perhaps Haza will be all the wiser when he has read his new book

 

Talisman

 

That assumption is indeed incorrect. Following trials in the spring and summer, operational Me 262 units begun to appear in the late automn of 1944 already.

 

See: 

 

To quote myself (and Luftwaffe strenght returns):

 

"Now, as for the supposedly "ultra rare" Me 262.

 

The number reported on strenght in day fighter and KG units (did not check the rest), as of 1st December 1944 (all Me 262 versions)

 

23 Me 262s reported on strenght by III / EJG 2.

14 Me 262s reported on strenght by III / JG 7.

 

1 Me 262 reported on strenght by Stab / KG 51.

47 Me 262s reported on strenght by I / KG 51.

36 Me 262s reported on strenght by II / KG 51.

16 Me 262s reported on strenght by IV / KG 51.

 

2 Me 262s reported on strenght by Stab / KG 54.

16 Me 262s reported on strenght by I / KG 54.

3 Me 262s reported on strenght by III / KG 54.

 

Grand total of 158 Me 262s on strength on 1st December 1944."

[EAF19_Marsh]

Operation flying in 1944 was limited primarily to Kommando Nowotny which performed relatively poorly during its 2 month life before it became III/JG 7 in November. Despite nominally having up to 30 aircraft, it struggled to put more than 6 into operation on a given sortie. Your 262 numbers are therefore likely high and appear more indicative of air-frames delivered but not of serviceable or operational. Looking at both Kommando Nowotny and JG 7, their ability to put aircraft in the air was very low.

 

Also, these units did not all head west in December at this point. EJG2 was an training unit unlikely to be found on the front line, JG 7 stayed near Berlin and KG54 was based somewhere in Bavaria.

 

So, yes, it was a pretty rare bird and the units operating it were not in terribly good shape. But it was a remarkable effort at the time and I am looking forward to its inclusion.

Edited April 3, 2018 by EAF19_Marsh

[von-Luck]

Having more airframes than pilots was a common occurrence in the 1944 luftwaffe.  Luftwaffe sortie rates plummeted for a number of reasons in the late war - reading pilot accounts from then is a mix of tragic and frustrated.  

 

von Luck

[MiloMorai]

1 Me 262 reported on strength by Stab / KG 51. and had 2 on hand at month end (Dec) 

47 Me 262s reported on strength by I / KG 51. and had 30 on hand at month end (Dec)

36 Me 262s reported on strength by II / KG 51. and had 13 on hand at month end (Dec)

16 Me 262s reported on strength by IV / KG 51. and had 12 on hand at month end (Dec)

 

2 Me 262s reported on strength by Stab / KG 54. and had 1 on hand at month end (Dec)

16 Me 262s reported on strength by I / KG 54. and had 5 on hand at month end (Dec)

3 Me 262s reported on strength by III / KG 54. and had 1 on hand at month end (Dec)

 

An almost 50% (121 to 64) reduction of 'on hand' a/c.

http://www.ww2.dk/

 

The JGs flying the Bf109 during Bodenplatte had 1150 Bf109s on hand at the beginning of Dec. Haven't calculated for the Fw190 but would suspect a similar number.

[TWC_TWC_SLAG]

On 3/22/2018 at 1:02 PM, Gambit21 said:

 

As an American who loves the Mustang (and the Zero, and the Jug, and the Dora, and, and...) can we not start this "Mustang won the war" bunk please? If anything it was the Russian pilots that "won the war"

Yes.  Using a heck of a lot of American equipment.

[Gambit21]

Excuse me while I go find a 8000K rolleyes image.

[TWC_TWC_SLAG]

5 minutes ago, Gambit21 said:

Excuse me while I go find a 8000K rolleyes image.

As an American, can we not start this “the Russians won the war” bunk, please?

[Gambit21]

As an American can we not start this "the Americans won the war" bunk please?

I suggest "No Simple Victory" by Norman Davies.

[Rjel]

1 minute ago, 71st_AH_VinnieJones said:

As an American, can we not start this “the Russians won the war” bunk, please?

I'm afraid you're a little late with your plea. Better hop back to 2001 and the original demo. Just sayin'.

[TWC_TWC_SLAG]

Just now, Rjel said:

I'm afraid you're a little late with your plea. Better hop back to 2001 and the original demo. Just sayin'.

That long ago, huh?

[Hoss]

On 3/20/2018 at 8:43 PM, Rjel said:

I can handle "Jug" for the the P-47 as I think it was used as a nickname in WWII. For the P-51 I can't stand "Stang". That's a recent phase. It just sounds so "upid".

 

The Mustang is a Pony...............  fast Pony...........

 

Hoss

[Tuesday]

14 hours ago, 71st_AH_VinnieJones said:

As an American, can we not start this “the Russians won the war” bunk, please?

 

14 hours ago, Gambit21 said:

As an American can we not start this "the Americans won the war" bunk please?

I suggest "No Simple Victory" by Norman Davies.

 

Calm down gentlemen, we all know it was the Canadians, Aussies, and New Zealanders who 'dun it

 

 

[GreenSound]

2 hours ago, Tuesday said:

 

 

Calm down gentlemen, we all know it was the Canadians, Aussies, and New Zealanders who 'dun it

 

 

Pretty sure Victory lay solely on the Brazilians. What would we have done without them?

[The_Gunfighter]

I'm with Hoss....as a Corvette owner/lover/nerd I feel the same way when people ask me "hey, uh, still got your Vette?". Makes my flesh crawl lol.........

[MiloMorai]

21 hours ago, 19//Hoss said:

 

The Mustang is a Pony...............  fast Pony...........

 

Hoss

 

Heard it called a Runstang cause it likes to run away.

[BlitzPig_EL]

4 hours ago, MiloMorai said:

 

Heard it called a Runstang cause it likes to run away.

 

Only Luftwaffe fan boys in video games that are working very hard to change history call it that.

 

Be sure.

[ATAG_Flare]

I wonder when the BoBo early access will start, personally I'm pretty excited for it.

On 3/29/2018 at 9:29 PM, Dusty926 said:

However, just because EFFORT was put in, does not mean that the game is therefor QUALITY. The game is still, in my opinion, far and away the worst of the entire series. The terrible Quick Mission Builder, the missing Full Mission Builder [AFAIK], the abhorrent AI, and just overall lack of single player options. 1946 had an absolute ton of them, BoX has more than ever before after 3.001, but Cliffs is absolute garbage in the department. "Oh but just play Multiplayer." Some of us are not keen on playing with deadstick morons and wannabe-Hartmanns after a long day of work, sometimes we enjoy flying solo against the finely tuned machines. For players like us, Blitz offers even LESS than the original release, what with the total absence of the Dynamic Campaign.

 

Now I know this is off topic but CloD does have a full mission editor (a very complex and powerful one too.) However singleplayer is pretty lacking. There is a pretty good user created dynamic Battle of Britain campaign by theOden but the AI is still rubbish. TF is overhauling the AI, hopefully it will be good. But right now I do agree BoX is probably better for SP flying.

[Gambit21]

3 hours ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

 

Only Luftwaffe fan boys in video games that are working very hard to change history call it that.

 

Be sure.

 

Aye - the willfully ignorant.

[Rjel]

4 hours ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

 

Only Luftwaffe fan boys in video games that are working very hard to change history call it that.

 

Be sure.

1 hour ago, Gambit21 said:

 

Aye - the willfully ignorant.

 

Sadly, Youtube is chock full of that kind of malarkey of most WWII era videos. That, I think,  is an even bigger threat to history.

[Legioneod]

7 hours ago, ATAG_Flare said:

I wonder when the BoBo early access will start, personally I'm pretty excited for it.

 

Now I know this is off topic but CloD does have a full mission editor (a very complex and powerful one too.) However singleplayer is pretty lacking. There is a pretty good user created dynamic Battle of Britain campaign by theOden but the AI is still rubbish. TF is overhauling the AI, hopefully it will be good. But right now I do agree BoX is probably better for SP flying.

From a previous DD we should see early access sometime in May.

[catchthefoxes]

53 minutes ago, Legioneod said:

From a previous DD we should see early access sometime in May.

I'm glad it's coming soon and not a year from now!

[Legioneod]

33 minutes ago, catchthefoxes said:

I'm glad it's coming soon and not a year from now!

Keep in mind that not all aircraft will be available at first, I think the 109 and Spitfire are going to be released first but I'm not sure.

[Gambit21]

I believe that will be the case - don't quote me on that.

[catchthefoxes]

@Legioneod i know, its good enough for me!

Edited April 30, 2018 by catchthefoxes

[TP_Sparky]

On 4/27/2018 at 6:36 PM, 71st_AH_VinnieJones said:

Yes.  Using a heck of a lot of American equipment.

 

Yes.  True.  American trucks.

 

Many sweeping Soviet army movements were made possible by troops and logistics moved in US trucks carrying Soviet soldiers and weapons to the battlefield.  

 

And the Battle of Normandy was won in the East.  No cross-Channel invasion would have been chanced had not the vast bulk of the German Army been tied down in the East.

 

So enough of foolish arguments.  The main war was in the East.  Operations in the West drew off substantial German power, especially airpower, which markedly helped the Soviets in the air war.

On 4/29/2018 at 6:21 AM, MiloMorai said:

 

Heard it called a Runstang cause it likes to run away.

 

Who told you that, Rundstedt?  

 

German fighter pilots did not find US P-51 fighter pilots to lack aggression or skill.  You "heard" that, eh?  Is that like "lots of people say"...

[Rjel]

1 hour ago, TP_Sparky said:

 

And the Battle of Normandy was won in the East.  No cross-Channel invasion would have been chanced had not the vast bulk of the German Army been tied down in the East.

 

 I don't think anyone who has even more than a passing interest in WWII disputes the Soviets bore the brunt of the ground war. To say the Normandy invasion was won in the East minimizes the sacrifice and contributions from hundreds of thousands Allied troops and millions of civilians who busted their asses producing all of the arms and equipment used all over the world.  I'm sure I would never have wanted to tell a survivor from D-Day he didn't contribute as much as any other Allied service member. 

[Legioneod]

1 hour ago, TP_Sparky said:

 

Yes.  True.  American trucks.

 

Many sweeping Soviet army movements were made possible by troops and logistics moved in US trucks carrying Soviet soldiers and weapons to the battlefield.  

 

And the Battle of Normandy was won in the East.  No cross-Channel invasion would have been chanced had not the vast bulk of the German Army been tied down in the East.

 

So enough of foolish arguments.  The main war was in the East.  Operations in the West drew off substantial German power, especially airpower, which markedly helped the Soviets in the air war.

 

Who told you that, Rundstedt?  

 

German fighter pilots did not find US P-51 fighter pilots to lack aggression or skill.  You "heard" that, eh?  Is that like "lots of people say"...

Not just trucks but that's besides the point. Soviet air campaigns did little to alter the war, it was British and American air campaigns that made a difference. 

I'll give credit where it is due, the Russians contributed greatly to the ground war in Europe but they didn't win it single handedly. Also, people seem to forget that the war didn't end when Germany surrendered. The war in the Pacific continued on for some months before America brought the war to it's final end.

 

This pic is a pretty good representation of who won the war, some countries may have done more than others in some areas (British in Africa, America in the Pacific or Russia in Europe) but no country did everything.

Edited April 30, 2018 by Legioneod

[blitze]

On 4/28/2018 at 2:36 AM, 71st_AH_VinnieJones said:

Yes.  Using a heck of a lot of American equipment.

Yeah, those American Sturmovik's were pretty neat.  Strange they didn't use them in the Pacific or the Western Front though??? /S

 

The main success with Air Campaigns in the West was the targeting of German Oil Refineries.  All else proved to be minor to stopping the German War Machine.  Although Strategic Bombing forced the Germans to decentralise their manufacturing, it didn't really slow it down.

 

Low level air support was helpful in the East but as we see today, Air Power alone does not win wars.

Edited April 30, 2018 by blitze
additional brain fat

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Ah, we devolve into the arguments of twelve year old boys again. It's been a while since we've had the WE WON THE WHOLE DOUGHNUT crew fully awakened.

[MiloMorai]

1 hour ago, TP_Sparky said:

Who told you that, Rundstedt?  

 

German fighter pilots did not find US P-51 fighter pilots to lack aggression or skill.  You "heard" that, eh?  Is that like "lots of people say"...

 

Lighten up Sparky. Is a long standing joke on game boards.

[-TBC-AeroAce]

At the end of the day each nation contributed what they could and help each other. British/American supplies for Soviets.  American supplies for the British. British intelligence for everyone. Soviet man power for everyone. If these interactions were not there God only know what the outcome would be but what is for sure is every nation played it's role and was as important as each other. 

 

Please do not start this stupid conversation. 

[TP_Sparky]

When the first of the Bodenplatte early-release material is released in May-June, perhaps the advanced Spit Mk.IX and Bf 109G-14, is there any indication from past early releases when we might expect the Western map?

[Pharoah]

On 4/29/2018 at 12:32 AM, Tuesday said:

 

 

Calm down gentlemen, we all know it was the Canadians, Aussies, and New Zealanders who 'dun it

 

 

 

Thank you. FINALLY...someone realises who REALLY won the war. Sheesh. 

[Mitthrawnuruodo]

57 minutes ago, TP_Sparky said:

When the first of the Bodenplatte early-release material is released in May-June, perhaps the advanced Spit Mk.IX and Bf 109G-14, is there any indication from past early releases when we might expect the Western map?

 

December 19, 2016 - Bf 109 G-4 (first Kuban aircraft)

August 29, 2017 - Kuban map

March 14, 2018 - Kuban completed

 

This suggests that there would be large gap before the map release (in late 2018 or early 2019). However, I wouldn't extrapolate from past releases. Now, many projects are being developed simultaneously. 

[TP_Silk]

I for one am really looking forward to an estimated timeframe for the release of the various aspects of Bodenplatte. Intellectually I know that 1C/777 will maybe be a little more cautious about naming dates given that final release of BoK slipped a little and that they are embarking on a bunch of joint ventures to provide Tank Crew and Flying Circus (I desperately want the Monty Python foot on the cover of this release hehe), but even  a loose indication with a strict 'no promises' caveat would be fantastic.

 

[Rjel]

22 minutes ago, Mitthrawnuruodo said:

 

December 19, 2016 - Bf 109 G-4 (first Kuban aircraft)

August 29, 2017 - Kuban map

March 14, 2018 - Kuban completed

 

This suggests that there would be large gap before the map release (in late 2018 or early 2019). However, I wouldn't extrapolate from past releases. Now, many projects are being developed simultaneously. 

Plus the Kuban map incorporated many new technologies if I remember correctly. Still, from first plane to full release, 15 months time to finish a project as complicated as this was is pretty quick.

Edited May 1, 2018 by Rjel
punctuation which I'm still not sure is correct. :(