La-5FN - impressions?

[BlitzPig_EL]

8 minutes ago, Panthera said:

 

 

 

the kills are mostly going to be unsuspecting victims. 

 

Historically, that is how most aces got their kills.  What's the problem here?

[ATA_Vasilij]

15 minutes ago, Panthera said:

...but the kills are mostly going to be unsuspecting victims. 

 

which is exactly according to the history in real wwII. We must not forget that most kills were done to the straight flying planes, which didnt know about enemy. 

So we all are super pilots with all of those super maneuvers.

[Panthera]

20 minutes ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

 

Historically, that is how most aces got their kills.  What's the problem here?

 

I don't believe I said there was a problem? All I said is that IMO the 190 doesn't rank in the top 2 fighters ingame.

Edited March 20, 2018 by Panthera

[JG27*Kornezov]

The discussion between Pantera and Sheriff is similar to discussing personnal tastes like orange juice or apple juice.

Sheriff prefers some characteristics Panthera the overall charactreristics.

 

As almost everybody knows that there are 2 types of fighters energy fighters and turn fighters. So no 190 is not the best fighter. It is not even the best energy fighter.

On the other hand the closest thing to an uber fighter is the la 5 FN.

As it has the best of the energy fighter capapabilities combined  with average turn fighter capabilities.

The la 5 FN has those characteristics.
-very high top speed

-capability of zoom climb as it is heavy.

-capability of sustained climb (high trust to weight ratio)

-good high speed handling

I think the combination of both capabilities of zoom and sustained climb is truly unique capability for this aircraft, no other aircraft in the game combines those 2 capabilities.

So truly unique energy fighter capabilities combined with average turn fighter capabilities.
Anyway I would expect the la 5 FN to roll a little bit worse and to turn a little bit better. But I am not a specialist.
 

Edited March 20, 2018 by JG27_Kornezov

[CrazyDuck]

41 minutes ago, Panthera said:

 

Again it's all about who you're fighting. If you opponent knows you're there, well then the 190 simply doesn't rank in the top 2 IMHO.

 

In the 190 you need to be constantly going faster than your target, if you're not then you avoid him. 

 

So yeah, on WoL I do great in the 190, heck also on Berloga, but the kills are mostly going to be unsuspecting victims. 

 

You always talk in singular form, never plural.

 

How do Fws stand up to marks when you pit 8 of them vs 8 Yaks or Spits (and that at 4 or 5.000 m altitude by chance)?

How does Fw 190 deal with free hunt missions, when you have at least 1 wingman on comms? (speaking about drag'n'bag)

How does Fw 190 deal with intercepting med-alt bombers? 

How does Fw 190 deal with intercepting low-alt sturmoviks?

How does Fw 190 deal with escort missions?

How does Fw 190 deal with JaBo missions?

 

Is there a better plane than Fw 190 for the combination of missions I described above?

 

In my humble opinion, there is a whole lot more to the term "fighter" than 1 v 1 dogfighting and lone wolf killing sprees on action oriented servers (and even for these a 190 ranks pretty good - not the best, maybe, but good nevertheless).

 

Flying full real cooperative missions (using comms) on historically based scenarios/dynamical campaigns might be a much better way of assessing quality of a fighter.

 

 

Edited March 20, 2018 by CrazyDuck

[JG27*Kornezov]

Crazy duck so much depends on the virtual pilots. But it is true FW 190 are designed to fight in wolf packs never alone. 

 

[Panthera]

To me the 190 is probably the best shoot'n'scoot aircraft ingame, esp. since the high responsiveness allows it to better react to target movement. However if you mess up the bounce and the target now is aware of you, then I don't feel so confident in the 190 anymore. This would be a little different if I had more than 3 min of full throttle ofcourse, and esp. if I had 1.58ata boost. But as it stands with just 3 min of boost I don't feel comfortable in the 190 unless my target doesn't know I'm there.

 

In the La-5FN I feel I have more room for mistakes, and should I mess up my initial attack then fret not I shall soon come around for the next one. Even the hardest foe for the La-5FN, the 109F or G2, I don't feel particularly afraid of as I know I just need to avoid turning with him for too long, but even then I just managed to shoot one down in a prolonged turn fight at SL using flaps - so even that can be done.  190's however I consider fodder, albeit sometimes very wiggly fodder

[Psyrion]

 

1 hour ago, Panthera said:

To me the 190 is probably the best shoot'n'scoot aircraft ingame, esp. since the high responsiveness allows it to better react to target movement. However if you mess up the bounce and the target now is aware of you, then I don't feel so confident in the 190 anymore. This would be a little different if I had more than 3 min of full throttle ofcourse, and esp. if I had 1.58ata boost. But as it stands with just 3 min of boost I don't feel comfortable in the 190 unless my target doesn't know I'm there.

 

In the La-5FN I feel I have more room for mistakes, and should I mess up my initial attack then fret not I shall soon come around for the next one. Even the hardest foe for the La-5FN, the 109F or G2, I don't feel particularly afraid of as I know I just need to avoid turning with him for too long, but even then I just managed to shoot one down in a prolonged turn fight at SL using flaps - so even that can be done.  190's however I consider fodder, albeit sometimes very wiggly fodder

If you dive on a plane at 800+ in the 190 you don't feel comfortable if you miss your shot? What's the enemy going to do? Engage rocket boost and suddenly accelerate 300 km/h from cruise? 

I suspect you have no experience flying the 190. 

1 hour ago, JG27_Kornezov said:

The discussion between Pantera and Sheriff is similar to discussing personnal tastes like orange juice or apple juice.

Sheriff prefers some characteristics Panthera the overall charactreristics.

 

As almost everybody knows that there are 2 types of fighters energy fighters and turn fighters. So no 190 is not the best fighter. It is not even the best energy fighter.

On the other hand the closest thing to an uber fighter is the la 5 FN.

As it has the best of the energy fighter capapabilities combined  with average turn fighter capabilities.

The la 5 FN has those characteristics.
-very high top speed

-capability of zoom climb as it is heavy.

-capability of sustained climb (high trust to weight ratio)

-good high speed handling

I think the combination of both capabilities of zoom and sustained climb is truly unique capability for this aircraft, no other aircraft in the game combines those 2 capabilities.

So truly unique energy fighter capabilities combined with average turn fighter capabilities.
Anyway I would expect the la 5 FN to roll a little bit worse and to turn a little bit better. But I am not a specialist.
 

I personally don't like when people group fighters as "turnfighter", "boom and zoom" etc. That depends so much on tje situation. The Spitfire for example is always called a turnfighter because it turns well but that does not that when you're at a higher altitude you should waste all your energy by turning. Diving in is a way better idea in that situation.

 

The 190 has a very fast top speed and has good elevator control at high speeds which means you can practically bounce a target as long as you want without any risk.

[Panthera]

12 minutes ago, Psyrion said:

 

If you dive on a plane at 800+ in the 190 you don't feel comfortable if you miss your shot? What's the enemy going to do? Engage rocket boost and suddenly accelerate 300 km/h from cruise? 

I suspect you have no experience flying the 190. 

 

I'd say that qualifies as an attack on an unsuspecting victim

 

I have lots of experience flying the 190. Racking up kills with it isn't particularly hard either if there's a lot of other aircraft around to distract your victim.

 

Edited March 20, 2018 by Panthera

[Psyrion]

Why? if he sees you coming he will break hard so you don´t get a shot on. That means the target just got even slower and even less of a risk to you. 

[Panthera]

29 minutes ago, Psyrion said:

Why? if he sees you coming he will break hard so you don´t get a shot on. That means the target just got even slower and even less of a risk to you. 

 

Thing is that break doesn't bleed that much energy in a Yak (surprisingly little infact), and in the La-5FN it doesn't matter as much as you can pick up speed/energy amazingly quickly because of those 1850 horsies. As such if I miss on the first bounce in a 190 I usually disengage completely to look for a new target. I will only attempt a 2nd attack if I started out 200+ kmh faster than my target, because then I know I can atleast outdistance him one more time should I fail the 2nd attack. 

 

On seperate topic: 2 days ago whilst flying the 109F4 I took a Yak on a long chase up to 7km altitude, somehow that pesky little Yak hung on and managed to shoot me down after I failed to hit him after I attempted a high yo yo maneuver on him. The ingame Yak really does possess some remarkable energy retention characteristics for some reason. 

Edited March 20, 2018 by Panthera

[216th_Jordan]

Man you guys really need to learn to fight in planes that do not always excell in climb or speed. Maybe people who fly VVS more often fail to see your point because they have learned that there isn't always an escape button and sometimes it comes down to your manouvering and shooting skills to survive or score kills.

[JG27*Kornezov]

I think the thread is about La 5 FN. Not tactics about FW 190 tactics against La 5 FN.

Psyrion arguments calling somebody incompetent are quite displaced and do not help to advance the discussion. I have seen a lot of cases when LW think they have an escape opportunity but they do not and that much before the coming of La 5 FN. Even the regular La 5 is going to catch the FW on deck on winter maps.
 

Come on team speak fly with the blue team and you will know more about me.

Actually believe it or not La5 FN is an an excellent plane exceeding LW capabilities. Until now my opinions is that the dev team had to put the VVS a little bit on the optimistic side regarding energy retention (e.g. Yaks and Laggs) in order to maintain an interesting gameplay. Now it is not needed anymore.

 

 

Edited March 20, 2018 by JG27_Kornezov

[HR_Zunzun]

8 hours ago, Finkeren said:

Having flown some more, I gotta say, that as strong as it is, it has one significant weakness, that makes it a lot less effective than it potentially could be: The heavy elevator.

 

I don’t know why it took me so long to notice. Perhaps because I’ve been flying the MiG-3 so much, that the FN appears to have just fine elevator authority at high speed. But against a Fw 190 it is just gonna get outmaneuvered at higher speeds.

Yes, that is the main drawback I have found in the FN. Surprisingly the vanilla La5 still retain better elevator authority. Why is that in the FN when it supposed to have its maneuverability refined?

[Finkeren]

1 minute ago, HR_Zunzun said:

Yes, that is the main drawback I have found in the FN. Surprisingly the vanilla La5 still retain better elevator authority. Why is that in the FN when it supposed to have its maneuverability refined?

 

There is an argument to be made, that the La-5 and LaGG-3 in the sim both have too great elevator authority. They both seem to recover really fast from a dive compared to what is stated in their flight manuals. 

 

The La-5FN is probably closer to what it should be like.

[Panthera]

5 minutes ago, 216th_Jordan said:

Man you guys really need to learn to fight in planes that do not always excell in climb or speed. Maybe people who fly VVS more often fail to see your point because they have learned that there isn't always an escape button and sometimes it comes down to your manouvering and shooting skills to survive or score kills.

 

I can excell in the Yak no problem, esp. since maneuvering doesn't seem to kill much of my speed, and control authority remains excellent with speed. It's by far the easiest plane to fly ingame IMHO, only its speed is slightly lacking it seems. However in terms of maintaining overall superiority it doesn't beat the La-5FN or Spitfire w/ Merlin 45.

[CountZero]

On 19. 03. 2018. at 7:24 AM, Wolferl_1791 said:

 In a perfect case, you'd lose most of the bottom frame as well. Something like this. Notice much thinner side frames as well.

 

 

 

 

Yes this is how it should look, they should fix it atleast by raising gunsight and tining out side and botom bars like they did for 190, 190 only got that special treatment after months of people complains about bars, but when they do it on one airplane its not fair to relise other airplanes with tick armor glass at angle without correcting it for them also, same should be done for 109G2 and all future airplanes that come with tick forward glass.

Its hard to belive that pilots were ok with having this forward view we have now in La5 where lover part of gunsight is obstructed because refraction cant be modeled in game, in real their gunsight was not opstructed like in game.

And side and top bars on 109G2 (dont have G4 and G6 so i dont know if that needs to be fix for them also) are just to big its also not realistic when armor is infront, but atleast gunsight is not opstructed like it was in 190 when they first made it before fix.

 

My view on La5FN performance is that this is real La5 i remenber from 1946, and no wonder its beast here also.

Edited March 20, 2018 by 77.CountZero

[Panthera]

3 minutes ago, Finkeren said:

 

There is an argument to be made, that the La-5 and LaGG-3 in the sim both have too great elevator authority. They both seem to recover really fast from a dive compared to what is stated in their flight manuals. 

 

The La-5FN is probably closer to what it should be like.

 

To me the crucial factor is that elevator authority in the La-5FN is above that of the 109 at high speed, as this means that at speed only the 190 can evade with a hard break, buy since I can outclimb & outspeed the 190  (+ eventually outturn it as speed drops) that doesn't pose a problem. 

 

As a result the La-5FN has quickly become the most effective aircraft for me on Berloga. 

[JaffaCake]

7 minutes ago, 77.CountZero said:

 

 

Yes this is how it should look, they should fix it atleast by raising gunsight and tining out side and botom bars like they did for 190, 190 only got that special treatment after months of people complains about bars, but when they do it on one airplane its not fair to relise other airplanes with tick armor glass at angle without correcting it for them also, same should be done for 109G2 and all future airplanes that come with tick forward glass.

Its hard to belive that pilots were ok with having this forward view we have now in La5 where lover part of gunsight is obstructed because refraction cant be modeled in game, in real their gunsight was not opstructed like in game.

And side and top bars on 109G2 (dont have G4 and G6 so i dont know if that needs to be fix for them also) are just to big its also not realistic when armor is infront, but atleast gunsight is not opstructed like it was in 190 when they first made it before fix.

 

My view on La5FN performance is that this is real La5 i remenber from 1946, and no wonder its beast here also.

 

 

I am surprised people say refraction is not modelled in the game - we have refraction shaders already for water droplets on the canopy - Wonder if the same could work for the glasss?

[CountZero]

Maybe its then to heavy for game performance, from what i remenber it was said that its not modeled

[=EXPEND=Tripwire]

That was back in DX9. Refraction in DX11 might be much less performance impacting?

[JaffaCake]

9 minutes ago, 77.CountZero said:

Maybe its then to heavy for game performance, from what i remenber it was said that its not modeled

 

 

I get water streaks which refract even on low graphics settings... 

[Psyrion]

33 minutes ago, JG27_Kornezov said:

I think the thread is about La 5 FN. Not tactics about FW 190 tactics against La 5 FN.

Psyrion arguments calling somebody incompetent are quite displaced and do not help to advance the discussion. I have seen a lot of cases when LW think they have an escape opportunity but they do not and that much before the coming of La 5 FN. Even the regular La 5 is going to catch the FW on deck on winter maps.
 

Come on team speak fly with the blue team and you will know more about me.

Actually believe it or not La5 FN is an an excellent plane exceeding LW capabilities. Until now my opinions is that the dev team had to put the VVS a little bit on the optimistic side regarding energy retention (e.g. Yaks and Laggs) in order to maintain an interesting gameplay. Now it is not needed anymore.

 

 

I called nobody incompetent. I don´t know what linking my profile does to help advance the discussion. 

Edited March 20, 2018 by Psyrion

[CountZero]

They should then try it on for airplane cockpits glass, as its probably easyer to do it so it effects all airplanes then adjust every cockpit to its real views.

[LukeFF]

6 hours ago, Panthera said:

There were still a large number around by November, mostly used in the escort role.

 

No, there were not, or else we would see them in the strength returns. They are non-existent there by November 1944. Where are these imaginary 190s of yours coming from?

[Sgt_Joch]

yes, very few A5, A6, A7s still used in combat during the Bodenplatte time frame.

 

but more importantly, where does this idea that they could run at 1.58/1.65 come from? that would require substantial hardware changes, which would seem to be a waste of resources when brand new A8/A9s were coming on line.

 

Is there an actual source for this or is this more wishful thinking?

[3./JG15_Kampf]

In fights 1vs1, la5 fn will eat fw190 because their performance numbers are much better. Against la5 serie 8, a slight zoom rise with fw190 was something that worked very well. Not against FN.
Compared with il2 1946, the fw 190 lost some important features in my opinion
- La5 Lagg 3 lift and roll rate authorities are much closer to the fw190 rates
- Increasing the tolerance to speed limit diving and damaging the structure benefited Russian aircraft much more. the German plane needs to lose more altitude to reach the critical speed for Russian aircraft. Then the Russian planes can follow better and much longer in a dive.
- a double split S was a maneuver that worked very well on the old il2. Fw 190 entered black out after other airplanes because it had an inclined accent. I know it's not the same Yes, but the first munitos of this video say a lot (although it's a spit) sorry about my English

 

 

Edited March 20, 2018 by 3./JG15_Kampf

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Using '46 to compare real world aircraft performance is problematic at best. While I do agree that the FN seems to be over performing slightly, it is best to use historical sources. Once found, present them as directed in numerous DEV posts to Han's PM box. It's both the right way and the only way to gain any traction regarding flight modeling.

[3./JG15_Kampf]

1 minute ago, II/JG17_HerrMurf said:

Using '46 to compare real world aircraft performance is problematic at best. While I do agree that the FN seems to be over performing slightly, it is best to use historical sources. Once found, present them as directed in numerous DEV posts to Han's PM box. It's both the right way and the only way to gain any traction regarding flight modeling.

Like I said in my post. "I know it's not the same SIM." I have no knowledge and no "documents" to prove and change something. Just using the old 46 to exemplify my "opinion" and reminiscing with the fw190 was agile compared to other aircraft. (I also do not know what it was like in real life)

[Tuesday]

You guys should spend more time learning to fight than making up excuses and trying to get something nerfed just because you haven't figured out how to fight it yet

 

Kampf, we were dogfighting in Berloga last night, and when you weren't parked directly above our spawn, you would have beaten my FN those two times in a row had you just used the elevator more instead of trying to snap stall all the time.

 

[Stig]

12 minutes ago, 3./JG15_Kampf said:

I have no knowledge and no "documents" to prove and change something

 

Yeah, I know, because that's so overrated. 

[3./JG15_Kampf]

21 minutes ago, 19//Tuesday said:

Kampf, we were dogfighting in Berloga last night, and when you weren't parked directly above our spawn, you would have beaten my FN those two times in a row had you just used the elevator more instead of trying to snap stall all the time.

Well, I use berloga to test the fw190 limits. Yesterday precisely, I was testing the CH pedal I bought so I was lost using my feet and hands at the same time hahaha. And about being on the place you are born, it may have happened, but I did not do it on purpose. I'm not a dishonest face. However for flying fw190, I fly a lot of time on the deck. I do not want to make anything personal, after all this game is supposed to be a fun

Edited March 20, 2018 by 3./JG15_Kampf

[Tuesday]

Cheers Kampf, it was remarked on TS that you can fly the hell out of the 190, so just put more emphasis on using the elevator against the FN and I don't think you'll have a problem with it.

[3./JG15_Kampf]

4 minutes ago, 19//Tuesday said:

Cheers Kampf, it was remarked on TS that you can fly the hell out of the 190, so just put more emphasis on using the elevator against the FN and I don't think you'll have a problem with it.

I do not have the FN, but from the comments I've read (including yours) la5FN has less authority than its older brother La5. Well, then soon there will be tactics to explore this deficiency

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Less authority how? As a fellow Fw driver this is important information

[=RvE=Windmills]

Outside of roll it's just pretty sluggish allround. 

[rolikiraly]

I was a bit surprised to see that the La-5FN is 'turning the tides' according to some. I haven't read the whole thread but i guess that would mean Axis is winning now? 

[3./JG15_Kampf]

4 minutes ago, Windmills said:

Outside of roll

I do not have La5fn. If someone can record a track and make a video (or send the track to me)

[303_Kwiatek]

1 hour ago, 19//Tuesday said:

Cheers Kampf, it was remarked on TS that you can fly the hell out of the 190, so just put more emphasis on using the elevator against the FN and I don't think you'll have a problem with it.

 

I dont expect it give too much adventage generally.

[Tuesday]

8 minutes ago, 303_Kwiatek said:

 

I dont expect it give too much adventage generally.

 

Yes, but you live in your own made-up little world with an alternate reality