Force Feedback in Joysticks/Pedals

[klebor]

Hi,

what is the reason even very expensive Joysticks from Virpil, VKB or BRD do not support FF technology?

Similar situation with pedals.

I had some cheap yoystick with great FF from Microsoft ages ago when i was small kid.

 

Is this some technical difficulty? Software (output from the game) or Hardware?

Edited March 7, 2018 by sereme1

[J2_Trupobaw]

I think both additional hardware and need of well-written support software. Many sim authors simply refuse to support ffb.

Sadly, there's no support for FFB pedals in RoF/BoX whatsoever. I tied rudder axis to my Microsoft FFB2 just so see what happens, and the stick just went limp along that axis. To bad, I already had this idea of making replica pedals connected to FFB steering wheel by wires and rods...

Edited March 7, 2018 by LsV_Trupobaw

[Sokol1]

2 hours ago, sereme1 said:

what is the reason even very expensive Joysticks from Virpil, VKB or BRD do not support FF technology?

 

Ask Immersion. The mentioned "boutique" joystick makers has no money for pay the licenses, royalties...

 

Quote

Similar situation with pedals.

 

This I guess you can ask for game developers and/or Microsoft because until now games support only ONE Force Feedback device per time, so joysticks or racing wheel have priority over pedals.

 

 

Edited March 7, 2018 by Sokol1

[BOO]

FFB  - the VR of the 90s?

 

I hope not.

[J2_Trupobaw]

No, we had VR hype back in 90s too. Turned out to be awesome, but inpractical fad.

[303_Bies]

There are both joysticks and pedals using FF on the market, they are rather expensive, 2-3 times more expensive than above mentioned devices. Their FF implementation is great, very detailed and realistic, they are being used in pilot's training and some commercial simulators have full FF support for them.

 

The newest invention are devices in magnetic field, joystick do not have ANY gimbal, it is placed in magnetic field with full, precise and direct FF output, what is more - because lack of gimbal they are not very expensive.

 

On VKB official forum customers were discussing with producers (VKB) about this solutions being implemented in VKB's devices. And producers are open, they just want to wait some time to let the technology to be fully mature.

 

The company which started production of this sticks started to supply industry and they plan to develop and sell the sticks for private customers and compatible with commercial simulators.

It will be the future of simulators, like VR.

 

cheers

 

Edited March 7, 2018 by bies

[Dutch2]

Maybe these guys will start, http://www.paccus.com/paccus-hawk

I know right now, they are very succesfull in designing for industrial and medical JS application, only who knows. 

[Wolf8312]

Do FFB sticks generally tend to last well, or will they eventually wear out if used for a prolonged period over a few years?

 

My hunch is that virpil and VKB cater to a market that are expecting their products to last for a very long time and therefore FFB  is too risky and liable to breakdown causing them too many headaches and perhaps driving up costs to the point of taking the stick beyond even the high end market.
But that's just pure conjecture on my part.

 

I think I heard FFB sticks can also impede aiming (again I'm not stating this as fact so by all means shoot me down) so that might be another factor. 

[SCG_Schneemann]

I've been using my MSFFB2 for almost 20 years

[Mitthrawnuruodo]

1 hour ago, Wolf8312 said:

Do FFB sticks generally tend to last well, or will they eventually wear out if used for a prolonged period over a few years?

 

My hunch is that virpil and VKB cater to a market that are expecting their products to last for a very long time and therefore FFB  is too risky and liable to breakdown causing them too many headaches and perhaps driving up costs to the point of taking the stick beyond even the high end market.
But that's just pure conjecture on my part.

 

I think I heard FFB sticks can also impede aiming (again I'm not stating this as fact so by all means shoot me down) so that might be another factor. 

 

With only a few common FFB models, it's hard to draw conclusions. However, they should have higher failure rates than normal sticks because they have many moving parts with large loads. After many cycles, gears, motors, bushings, etc. will fail.

 

Cost is probably the main problem with FFB sticks. A VKB or Virpil device already costs ~$300. Now add electromagnets or motors and complex gimbals, as well as power electronics and vibration-resistant mountings. If these are to last long, they must be quality components and not cheap knockoffs. Suddenly, you have a stick that must sell for $1000. 

 

The sad thing is that the technology has existed for decades; it's the economics that don't work. 

 

[Sokol1]

Example: the expensive Brunner CSL-E Force Feedback base, compatible with grips of Warthog, MongoosT50 and probable with Debolestis adaptations (Suncom F-15, CH F-16, Tm B-8...) and their custom A320 grip.

 

 https://www.brunner-innovation.swiss/product/cls-e-joystick/

 

But...  don't support DirectInput, so need plug-in's for work in your preferred flight game, plug-in's actually available for Prepar3D/X-Plane/MSFS, their focus is GA simulation.

 

 

Edited March 9, 2018 by Sokol1

[spitfirejoe]

I know that this thread is a bit older………...I come here to ask…...does anyone use the Brunner CLS-E Joystick ( same one mentioned by Sokol1 above) ?

Has anyone here ever tried it and how is the impression of the FFB it delivers?

 

I know that DCS got implemented in 2019 to the Brunner FFB Joystick, so now it is fully functional delivering all API data which it needs.

I just don´t know if IL-2 still is not implemented or is it now? 

Asking the Devs ( I think they will not read the thread )…...I wish to know if you will implement the Brunner Joystick fully in IL-2?

I am interested in it to buy, so I want to know

 

https://www.brunner-innovation.swiss/product/cls-e-joystick/

 

thanks.

[VR-DriftaholiC]

On 6/27/2020 at 6:39 AM, spitfirejoe said:

I know that this thread is a bit older………...I come here to ask…...does anyone use the Brunner CLS-E Joystick ( same one mentioned by Sokol1 above) ?

Has anyone here ever tried it and how is the impression of the FFB it delivers?

 

I know that DCS got implemented in 2019 to the Brunner FFB Joystick, so now it is fully functional delivering all API data which it needs.

I just don´t know if IL-2 still is not implemented or is it now? 

Asking the Devs ( I think they will not read the thread )…...I wish to know if you will implement the Brunner Joystick fully in IL-2?

I am interested in it to buy, so I want to know

 

https://www.brunner-innovation.swiss/product/cls-e-joystick/

 

thanks.

 

You need to go bug them to get the direct X interpolation working. I want to buy one but it doesn't work for IL2 yet

[spitfirejoe]

On 7/5/2020 at 5:39 AM, VR-DriftaholiC said:

 

You need to go bug them to get the direct X interpolation working. I want to buy one but it doesn't work for IL2 yet

 

Ok thanks for that info. I did ask Brunner already long time ago if IL-2 is supported, I never got an answer.

That is no good news that IL-2 is not supported.

 

Edit, Stefan Brunner did answer my question in his own forum, I just did not see that.

Edited July 6, 2020 by spitfirejoe

[martinlb]

I hope this is the right tread for this.  I've got an old Microsoft Force Feedback joystick that I've lost the power supply for.  The plug doesn't take a normal round jack but it's like a double round jack- like an "8" standing on its side.  I hope that's enough to describe it.

 

I'm thinking about making something up from existing stuff I've got but can anyone tell me what voltage the power supply needs to put out?

[FTC_crane]

19 hours ago, spitfirejoe said:

 

Ok thanks for that info. I did ask Brunner already long time ago if IL-2 is supported, I never got an answer.

That is no good news that IL-2 is not supported.

 

Brunner is saying that they need FF via API port. It doesen't seem that they will introduce directX based Force Feedback anytime soon.

https://forum.brunner-innovation.swiss/forums/topic/dcs-world-il2-others/#post-1840

 

I would really love to see a good pair of Pedals and a Joystick with Force Feedback.

Edited July 6, 2020 by ACG_crane

[=FEW=fernando11]

5 hours ago, martinlb said:

I hope this is the right tread for this.  I've got an old Microsoft Force Feedback joystick that I've lost the power supply for.  The plug doesn't take a normal round jack but it's like a double round jack- like an "8" standing on its side.  I hope that's enough to describe it.

 

I'm thinking about making something up from existing stuff I've got but can anyone tell me what voltage the power supply needs to put out?

This?

 

Universal tipe "8" cord?

 

https://www.google.com/search?client=ms-android-xiaomi-rev2&ei=VCADX92SAdex5OUPv9WUwA8&q=cable+tipo+8+&oq=cable+tipo+8+&gs_lcp=ChNtb2JpbGUtZ3dzLXdpei1zZXJwEAMyAggpMgIIADICCAAyAggAMgIIADICCAAyBggAEBYQHjIGCAAQFhAeMgYIABAWEB5Q_RRYxxZgth5oAHAAeAGAAboBiAHlBpIBAzAuNpgBAKABAQ&sclient=mobile-gws-wiz-serp

 

I never owner a FFB joystick, but I'll be carefull where you plug it, you might burn it by overcurrent

[martinlb]

Yep, FEW, thanks for replying.  And, yes, that is exactly the plug type I meant!  Type 8.  And I THINK I saw somewhere it's 12v.  Just not sure so I'm not pulling the trigger yet.

[DD_Arthur]

4 hours ago, martinlb said:

Yep, FEW, thanks for replying.  And, yes, that is exactly the plug type I meant!  Type 8.  And I THINK I saw somewhere it's 12v.  Just not sure so I'm not pulling the trigger yet.

Martin does your old Microsoft feed back stick plug into your pc via a USB port? This is important.

[HunDread]

5 hours ago, martinlb said:

Yep, FEW, thanks for replying.  And, yes, that is exactly the plug type I meant!  Type 8.  And I THINK I saw somewhere it's 12v.  Just not sure so I'm not pulling the trigger yet.

 

MSFFB2 uses that simple standard cable that TVs and old radios use. Nothing special. I wouldn't be surprised if you already had a few laying around at home.

[martinlb]

15 hours ago, HunDread said:

 

MSFFB2 uses that simple standard cable that TVs and old radios use. Nothing special. I wouldn't be surprised if you already had a few laying around at home.

Yeah.  All I need now is to find what voltage is required.  If I've got an adapter with right voltage output I can soldier things up and hopefully get the joystick working.  With no power it basically flops around with absolutely no resistance and is pretty much useless.  I hope I didn't fry it when I decided "what the heck" and plugged it directly into an outlet.  No smoke escaped from it so I've still got some hope.  I'll follow up and report what comes of this.  Thanks to everyone for the input!

[Sokol1]

If I've got an adapter with right voltage output I can soldier things up and hopefully get the joystick working. 

 

For MS Force Feedback 2 USB you don't need (power) adapter,  the A/C power circuit is inside the case, you just need a cable with "8" plug in one end, and the corresponding wall plug used in your country in the other end. See in this pictured, at right:

 

The predecessor MS Force Feedback PRO  (gameport) is that use an external A/C adapter.

[martinlb]

I found that the voltage for this is 12v.  Is that incorrect?

 

[martinlb]

AND...  Can anyone tell me where the fuse is?

[Cynic_Al]

On 3/7/2018 at 2:28 PM, J2_Trupobaw said:

I think both additional hardware and need of well-written support software. Many sim authors simply refuse to support ffb.

Sadly, there's no support for FFB pedals in RoF/BoX whatsoever. I tied rudder axis to my Microsoft FFB2 just so see what happens, and the stick just went limp along that axis. To bad, I already had this idea of making replica pedals connected to FFB steering wheel by wires and rods...

 

It's surprising how many people are prepared to implement the Heath-Robinson approach. 

 

It strikes me that under most circumstances, the FFB profile for rudder would be very similar to that provided for elevator; the only time they may diverge appreciably would be during pronounced yawing or spins, when the rudder is removed from the slipstream, which must also affect the elevator to some extent.  This being the case, I think it would be quite acceptable to build a FFB rudder control that shares the elevator's FFB signal.

[DD_Arthur]

7 hours ago, martinlb said:

I found that the voltage for this is 12v.  Is that incorrect?

 

Well....yes. I think you might be over thinking this a little. It uses the same plug and lead as, say a small radio...one of these ?. Where I am domestic current is 240v. Where you are might be the same or 120v. Just plug it in to a normal domestic socket - like your pc is.

[HunDread]

6 hours ago, martinlb said:

AND...  Can anyone tell me where the fuse is?

 

Agree with @DD_Arthur.

 

You just take this simple TV/Radio cable (I guess old or maybe new audio devices use this too), plug it in the joystick, plug the other end to a power socket and you are good to go.

 

[martinlb]

16 hours ago, HunDread said:

 

Agree with @DD_Arthur.

 

You just take this simple TV/Radio cable (I guess old or maybe new audio devices use this too), plug it in the joystick, plug the other end to a power socket and you are good to go.

 

I could SWEAR I used to have a (what is it called?) "box" that plugged into the wall on one side and had a separate cable with the "8" configuration that plugged into the joystick.  But I've found the fuse, know its still good, and will therefore try it again plugged directly into a wall socket.  Thanks everyone.

[Cynic_Al]

12 hours ago, martinlb said:

•  

I could SWEAR I used to have a (what is it called?) "box" that plugged into the wall on one side and had a separate cable with the "8" configuration that plugged into the joystick

 

Could you post a close-up picture of the socket on your joystick?  I imagine there's only one.

 

 

 

Edited July 9, 2020 by Cynic_Al

[martinlb]

6 hours ago, Cynic_Al said:

 

Could you post a close-up picture of the socket on your joystick?  I imagine there's only one.

 

 

 

 

[martinlb]

On 7/7/2020 at 1:25 AM, DD_Arthur said:

Martin does your old Microsoft feed back stick plug into your pc via a USB port? This is important.

Sorry, just saw this.  Yes, it's got the connector port in the picture I posted and a USB cable that plugs into the computer.  I've tried enough things to have reached the end of my understanding.  With a 12v adapter and with it plugged directly into  the wall outlet, all I've got is a floppy stick with a flashing green light.  I've ordered a used one from eBay that's due here in a few days.

[Jack_Immondizia]

Do you need a low cost idea to get a good rudder with forcefeedback? buy a momo racing, turn it over, get 4 wooden axes and this is the result:

 

it is not elegant but works well though, I have been using this rudder for 6 years without problems!
In x-plane 10 I had my best flight experience, thanks to an external plugin (XPForce), plus the momoracing forcefeedback is configurable. I use DIView to limit its axis and calibrate it.
I can guarantee that it doesn't take any insane expense to get a rudder with forcefeedback.

[Cynic_Al]

On 7/15/2020 at 3:47 PM, Jack_Immondizia said:

Do you need a low cost idea to get a good rudder with forcefeedback? buy a momo racing, turn it over, get 4 wooden axes and this is the result:

 

That basic concept has been suggested already, but it still requires a workaround for games that don't support FFB on rudder.

[Jack_Immondizia]

 

9 hours ago, Cynic_Al said:

 

That basic concept has been suggested already...

I don't know where you already seen this suggestion, it doesn't seem to me that we are talking about it here, moreover what does it matter? This idea can help someone who doesn't have a rudder, also without forcefeedback.

 

 

 

9 hours ago, Cynic_Al said:

 

but it still requires a workaround for games that don't support FFB on rudder.

This is not a problem, as the steering wheel software (logitech profiler) allows you to set an adjustable predefined spring force, so even if the game does not support forcefeedback, the steering wheel still returns to the center, like any other rudder with spring mechanism. Seeing is believing.

Edited July 17, 2020 by Jack_Immondizia

[Cynic_Al]

17 hours ago, Jack_Immondizia said:

 

I don't know where you already seen this suggestion, it doesn't seem to me that we are talking about it here, moreover what does it matter? This idea can help someone who doesn't have a rudder, also without forcefeedback.

 

Here.

 

 

17 hours ago, Jack_Immondizia said:

This is not a problem, as the steering wheel software (logitech profiler) allows you to set an adjustable predefined spring force, so even if the game does not support forcefeedback, the steering wheel still returns to the center, like any other rudder with spring mechanism. Seeing is believing.

 

That amounts to just another spring-loaded controller, not force feedback.

[Jack_Immondizia]

8 hours ago, Cynic_Al said:

 

Here.

ops, how I couldn't see it? it was so evident... Sorry, I almost regret having posted the photos of my rudder...

 

 

8 hours ago, Cynic_Al said:

 

That amounts to just another spring-loaded controller, not force feedback.

 if the game doesn't support the ffb of the yaw that's a problem of the game, and the alternatives are to be found in external plugins/software that receive the inputs and variables by the game, not in the the rudder device.

Edited July 18, 2020 by Jack_Immondizia

[Sokol1]

GAUSS FFB base in DCS (with plugins for FFB):

 

 

Edited July 21, 2020 by Sokol1

[JG5_Schuck]

On 3/9/2018 at 4:57 PM, SCG_Schneemann said:

I've been using my MSFFB2 for almost 20 years

 

Same here, must be 20 years,

and i got a spare incase one packs up.

Couldn't do without it now!

Edited July 21, 2020 by JG5_Schuck

[Jack_Immondizia]

16 hours ago, Sokol1 said:

Base GAF FFB in DCS (con plugin per FFB):

 

 

 

beautiful, but I also saw that this is very expensive, like products by other small companies that have developed yoke with ffb.
The Sidewinder ffb2 was cost around $ 100-150 and, except for dead-zone problem and a toy design, you have pretty much everything you need in a joystick:
- excellent forcefeedback
- durability
- fair precision (10 bit resolution - 1024 steps each)
  All this at a very reasonable price! 
Now it seems that it is impossible to make something like this for the same price! Besides that, just few recent combat simulators have a good  forcefeedback implementation (maybe only DCS), I've never understood the reason of this degradation.

Edited July 22, 2020 by Jack_Immondizia