Bassly Posted January 5, 2014 Posted January 5, 2014 The poll on the Russian forum is leaning heavily towards an extension of the viewing distance. Do we have a similar poll somewhere around here?
=38=Tatarenko Posted January 5, 2014 Posted January 5, 2014 Dunno. Do you know there's a poll board here too? http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/forum/21-polls/
Bassly Posted January 5, 2014 Posted January 5, 2014 (edited) Dunno. Do you know there's a poll board here too? http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/forum/21-polls/ I checked there first, nothing was found. I was just thinking, if we have same poll here too. Just for curiosity, what are the options on the poll over the russian forums? Edited January 5, 2014 by Bassly
=38=Tatarenko Posted January 5, 2014 Posted January 5, 2014 You can make your own poll. The option are basically OK or further vis, currently 2:1 in favour of further. The other options are comedy "what dots? what enemy?"
=RvE=Windmills Posted January 5, 2014 Posted January 5, 2014 You can make your own poll. The option are basically OK or further vis, currently 2:1 in favour of further. The other options are comedy "what dots? what enemy?" There actually is a notable amount of people who voted that the current viewdistance is acceptable?
Rama Posted January 5, 2014 Posted January 5, 2014 There actually is a notable amount of people who voted that the current viewdistance is acceptable? 130 did, vs 253 for not acceptable (now)
Rjel Posted January 5, 2014 Posted January 5, 2014 I think any polls that concern BoS would have more value if they were posted on both forums then the results could be combined. As it is the same game, whatever the entire community likes or dislikes in a poll might have an effect on the same sim we will all be flying.
=38=Tatarenko Posted January 5, 2014 Posted January 5, 2014 Any polls posted by the devs (eg the Hurri or P-40 question) appear on both forums. This poll was started by a player not the devs.
Rjel Posted January 5, 2014 Posted January 5, 2014 Any polls posted by the devs (eg the Hurri or P-40 question) appear on both forums. This poll was started by a player not the devs. I understand that. I think it would be valuable to have polls mirrored on both sites.
Emgy Posted January 5, 2014 Posted January 5, 2014 It's mirrored now . http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/3542-your-opinion-about-visibility-remote-contactsvashe-mnenie-o/ 1
IonicRipper Posted January 5, 2014 Posted January 5, 2014 I find it impossible to spot targets without labels. Even after using the external cam on the enemy plane to have an idea on its location.
Fifi Posted January 5, 2014 Author Posted January 5, 2014 Made a quick test in a mission i builded with DCS P51 and labels on, and it seems ennemy plane is spawning at 8Km (good to me). Only 1 tiny pixel though!...but it's there. Very very hard to spot among the 2560X1440 pixels of my screen So the hawk ace sight skill claimed by some people is still intact! Nevertheless, to counterpart the screen issue VS real life, i'd like more than 1 pixel...maybe 2 should do it. Or a darker pixel...don't really know. It's hard to find good compromise, and i wouldn't like beeing a dev
Rama Posted January 5, 2014 Posted January 5, 2014 Depends if it's really hard to spot on a standard 1920 x 1080 screen (or lower resolution). I would be very curious to know how much people here could see a tourism plane (in bright colors) at 8 km at same alt in clear sky IRL... even when told in which direction to watch. It's quite an easy test to perform if you're a pilot or have a pilot friend. As far as I'm concerned, I can't, except if a lucky sunglint, or with luck in a very very clear sky if the apparent speed of the other plane is fast (flying perpendicular flight direction 8 km ahead).
Fifi Posted January 6, 2014 Author Posted January 6, 2014 Reading your post Rama, funny thing is this morning while driving, i suddently spotted a civil plane (Cessna kind of) against a mountain background. I could see it mouving and flying even without blue sky background. Back home, using Google earth i just draw the line from where i was at this time and some place before the mountain. Guess what? ...8Km believe it or not Nevertheless, sun was here of course, and probably helped seeing this white plane. On side note, i can spot Airbus/Boeing far further in a blue sky without much trouble.
unreasonable Posted January 6, 2014 Posted January 6, 2014 Without zooming, currently ROF spawn planes at 3Km (always thought it was further, but was wrong) and i can see them I suppose it is possible that RoF spawns planes at 3km - not yet sure how to check this until I come across a suitable circumstance in a campaign mission - but if true this is due to the mission generator not the viewing system. It certainly does not "despawn" them at 3km. Since the distance measurement on the plane icons only goes upto 1.5 km (at least on default settings) the best way to test viewing distance is to set up a campaign flight with you not the leader and lag behind your flight as they approach your base aerodrome. Since the drome's distance is measured on the navigation icon at any distance, you can circuit the drome and watch the AI's attempts to land. Just doing this while I fine tune my new PC I was able to see DH2s, fully zoomed out, at 5-6 km provided they were flying over a pale field area. This is with "draw distance" set to 100%. Admittedly playing RoF on a 70 inch TV helps, but it still a standard 1920-1040 resolution.
Rama Posted January 6, 2014 Posted January 6, 2014 Reading your post Rama, funny thing is this morning while driving, i suddently spotted a civil plane (Cessna kind of) against a mountain background. I could see it mouving and flying even without blue sky background. Back home, using Google earth i just draw the line from where i was at this time and some place before the mountain. Guess what? ...8Km believe it or not Nevertheless, sun was here of course, and probably helped seeing this white plane. If you "saw it moving", you were in one ot the specific case I pointed (apparent speed of the plane allows to spot you). Try the same with a plane moving more or less toward you.... And I would be curious to know How you determined the distance to her... she could have been anywhere between you and the mountains. The only ways to know the distance would be if the plane pilot has given you its exact location at the time you spotted it, or if you had measured his apparent size and compared to the real size of the identified plane (which means you had identified the exact plane type... and not just a "kind of Cessna"), or if you had a laser telemeter to measure the distance.... what option did you use? On side note, i can spot Airbus/Boeing far further in a blue sky without much trouble. Me too. Airliners are much bigger than any planes you will find in BoS. 1
ATAG_Bliss Posted January 6, 2014 Posted January 6, 2014 The issue with spotting seems to effect everything though. I don't think we have a rendered environment past 5km at the moment. So just think when you are on the ground and another plane is 6500m above you putting out all sorts of contrail. Regardless if you see the "dot", you'd still see the contrail from the ground. So I think the issue is a little deeper than just the ability to see the plane. Lets just hope they can extend the distance.
DairyAir Posted January 6, 2014 Posted January 6, 2014 FWIW... My Aerodrome is located approximately 10 Km distant from an Airport. Standing on my runway, I can just barely see small planes in the circuit for landing at that Airport. And ONLY if the background is the sky, Once the plane dips below the distant mountain tops it becomes invisible. At night, the navigation and landing lights make the aircraft easy to track, however it becomes impossible to identify visually. For my tired old eyes. Daylight, small plane type recognition happens at 2-3 Km distance. Sometimes a bit farther. Younger eyes would probably do better. Depends if it's really hard to spot on a standard 1920 x 1080 screen (or lower resolution).I would be very curious to know how much people here could see a tourism plane (in bright colors) at 8 km at same alt in clear sky IRL... even when told in which direction to watch. It's quite an easy test to perform if you're a pilot or have a pilot friend. As far as I'm concerned, I can't, except if a lucky sunglint, or with luck in a very very clear sky if the apparent speed of the other plane is fast (flying perpendicular flight direction 8 km ahead). 1
HagarTheHorrible Posted January 6, 2014 Posted January 6, 2014 Sorry if it's already been asked, but at what sort of distance should it be possible to identify a fighter sized aircraft from it's side profile ? I got quiet proficient in RoF at knowing what most contacts were from a usable distance, the SE5a was particularly obvious, it mean't I didn't have to fly from pillar to post trying to discover what every Tom, Dick or Harry Tate was.
6S.Manu Posted January 6, 2014 Posted January 6, 2014 (edited) Sorry if it's already been asked, but at what sort of distance should it be possible to identify a fighter sized aircraft from it's side profile ? I got quiet proficient in RoF at knowing what most contacts were from a usable distance, the SE5a was particularly obvious, it mean't I didn't have to fly from pillar to post trying to discover what every Tom, Dick or Harry Tate was. http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/3542-your-opinion-about-visibility-remote-contacts/?p=74630 It's not the ID range, it's the distance at which a plane can be spotted (front, side and bottom). Edited January 6, 2014 by 6S.Manu
Fifi Posted January 6, 2014 Author Posted January 6, 2014 If you "saw it moving", you were in one ot the specific case I pointed (apparent speed of the plane allows to spot you). Try the same with a plane moving more or less toward you.... You are right. Mouving toward me i probably won't see it. Unless a sun reflection or something else wich could have revealed it. And I would be curious to know How you determined the distance to her... she could have been anywhere between you and the mountains. The only ways to know the distance would be if the plane pilot has given you its exact location at the time you spotted it, or if you had measured his apparent size and compared to the real size of the identified plane (which means you had identified the exact plane type... and not just a "kind of Cessna"), or if you had a laser telemeter to measure the distance.... what option did you use? Because of the town and airfield. At this place i saw it, the plane could only have been on the traditional approach path of our Magenta airfield. Furthermore he was quite low as i saw it with the mountain background, hence i highly suspected his approach to land. I found back my car position with Google earth, and mesured the distance to the "supposed" but "almost certain" flying path with the mountain background (i have flown few time here as passenger this area and approach for landing) Yeah, said kind of Cessna cause there aren't hundreds planes at this small in-town airfield. At least half dozen of small white planes like Cessna, 5 helicopters, and few bigger ATR for regular line toward our Loyalty islands. Couldn't be helicopters neither bigger ATR (not white and very recognizable), so it had to be a "kind of cessna" meaning small civilian plane. At this distance, i couldn't tell the exact shape of the plane for sure (and had to drive at same time). But i saw he was white and small (color helped probably on the green/brown background)
Rama Posted January 6, 2014 Posted January 6, 2014 Because of the town and airfield. At this place i saw it, the plane could only have been on the traditional approach path of our Magenta airfield. Furthermore he was quite low as i saw it with the mountain background, hence i highly suspected his approach to land. If it was a small "Cessna like" plane on landing circuit on NWWM, the pilot was probably flying the standard VFR landing circuit (not using IFR approaches). So was she on backwind leg, on crosswind, on final? for a landing on runway 17 (most probably if she was between you and the mountains) or possibly on runway 35? If you tell me where you were approximativelly on the google map and what was the wind direction that day, maybe we can figre were it really was and what the max distance could have been. If you want to do it, then it would be probably better by PM... or it will be boring for the others.
DairyAir Posted January 6, 2014 Posted January 6, 2014 In real life. Small aircraft sometimes fly right into each other frontally, and in clear day VFR conditions. When I'm flying in a high traffic area. I continually move my head from side to side, as well as vertically, as I scan for traffic. Look at the view forward and to the sides. can you see where a dot might hide? How many seconds does it take to change from a dot to an enemy plane spitting death? Closing speed 700-900 Kph maybe. By the time a pilot notices that the windscreen frame is growing a set of wings.... It's too late.
Uriah Posted January 6, 2014 Posted January 6, 2014 Dailyair wrote "And ONLY if the background is the sky, Once the plane dips below the distant mountain tops it becomes invisible." I would like to make a subtle distinction. There is a difference between invisible and just not being able to pick it out. The same person who is not trained to pick out such a plane and then once trained will not have any change to his eyes but rather his mind. The same is true in a sim game. The game may have the plane actually visible but it in no way means I will be able to pick it out of the sky. I can hear it now, "Use the force Luke".
DairyAir Posted January 6, 2014 Posted January 6, 2014 I am not Luke. Although I do use the force. Scanning for air traffic since 1959. Perhaps I should have written "Once the plane dips below the distant mountain tops it becomes invisible TO ME. A sideview is visible farther than a frontal view, however a side view is usually less threatening than a frontal view, At least TO ME. Color does make a difference to visibility. Hence camouflage. Sound is also identifiable if a person is on the ground spotting airplanes. Dailyair wrote "And ONLY if the background is the sky, Once the plane dips below the distant mountain tops it becomes invisible." I would like to make a subtle distinction. There is a difference between invisible and just not being able to pick it out. The same person who is not trained to pick out such a plane and then once trained will not have any change to his eyes but rather his mind. The same is true in a sim game. The game may have the plane actually visible but it in no way means I will be able to pick it out of the sky. I can hear it now, "Use the force Luke".
Fifi Posted January 7, 2014 Author Posted January 7, 2014 If you want to do it, then it would be probably better by PM... or it will be boring for the others. Done
ATAG_Bliss Posted January 7, 2014 Posted January 7, 2014 Disagree, i still play il2 1946 hsfx 7 a lot, at 1920 by 1200 full switch, and spot contacts way way out compared to BoS. The reason is because they are actually drawn at distance. I'm pretty sure most of the server operators use at least 12km dot pitch if not more. I don't think there's anything rendered in BoS past 5km, maybe even less tbh. ahh, i agree that at higher res in il2 1946 its harder to spot contacts than at a lower res, thats a definite, always has been. However its still much much easier to spot contacts at a high res in il2 than BoS though...... Yep - And I think the main reason why it's that way is because original IL2 was designed around 1024x768 for the resolution. So you can imagine how many pixels make up a dot on your screen compared to much smaller dots being displayed at higher resolutions. But regardless of resolution, the dot distance is still there and visible based on server settings. That's the difference and something that most definitely needs improved upon.
Fifi Posted January 7, 2014 Author Posted January 7, 2014 Next time i'll try to set 1920X1080 resolution, and see if any better in BOS.
Crow Posted January 7, 2014 Posted January 7, 2014 The reason is because they are actually drawn at distance. I'm pretty sure most of the server operators use at least 12km dot pitch if not more. I don't think there's anything rendered in BoS past 5km, maybe even less tbh. Yep - And I think the main reason why it's that way is because original IL2 was designed around 1024x768 for the resolution. So you can imagine how many pixels make up a dot on your screen compared to much smaller dots being displayed at higher resolutions. But regardless of resolution, the dot distance is still there and visible based on server settings. That's the difference and something that most definitely needs improved upon. "mp_dotrange" The clarion call of the IL-2 ace.
FuriousMeow Posted January 7, 2014 Posted January 7, 2014 (edited) I don't think there's anything rendered in BoS past 5km, maybe even less tbh. Hmmmm. This information is based on what? At maximum draw distance Objects are drawn at 8500m. http://riseofflight.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=20189 2. Objects Visibility - The object draw distance affects ALL objects other than trees. This means that Airplanes, Buildings, Vehicles, Balloons and their associated effects such as Flak are drawn much further out. At maximum draw distance Objects are drawn at 8500m. Their draw distance is no longer connected to the FOV setting. This is what you have asked for and we have tried to deliver. We have found in testing that if you can already run ROF successfully you should be able to run 100% Draw Distance with little or no impact on game performance. On a related note, buildings now fade in as you approach them just like the trees do. No more popup buildings. With regards to Multiplayer, this setting is a Client side option. For technical reasons this will never become a Server side option. Again, the large majority of users will be able to set this at 100% with no issues. Edited January 7, 2014 by FuriousMeow
Crow Posted January 7, 2014 Posted January 7, 2014 While that quote from the RoF forums has been parroted time and time again here, it doesn't match with observable reality in either RoF or BoS. 1
FuriousMeow Posted January 7, 2014 Posted January 7, 2014 (edited) It actually does. It's just not to your satisfaction where a single aircraft should be clearly visible at all ranges out to 12km because that is so common in pilot's memoirs and not the "I didn't notice the aircraft until a reflective glint" or "it wasn't until I noticed a movement above the ocean and I dove down after him" with these aircraft being much, much closer than 4km. Go look at the buildings, they display at 8km. And yes, that's true for BoS - because the aircraft don't spawn until within ~4 to ~3km currently. So unless you spent the entire time running away from them to ensure you were a good 8+km away, you can't state fact on that in any manner. And NONE of you, no one - not even me - has a display running at 1:1 capabilities. So those dots, would very will be much larger given the appropriate display that would display a true 1:1 recreation of reality - and hence why the FOV zoom is applicable because it actually DOES simulate that. Anything else is just as gimmicky/arcadey/unrealistic until we're all on a 1:1 display, and then at that point you'll see that the spotting issues aren't real, we're just using unrealistic display devices. I'm using a 30" monitor at 2560x1600, and it's not even close to 1:1 - but when I zoom to the point where 1:1 actually exists, spotting and aircraft IDing is not an issue. Unfortunately I lose a large amount of my display area. So the solution is lobbying for a display that is at 1:1 with reality, or figuring out a way to project directly into our occular receptors. Edited January 7, 2014 by FuriousMeow
Fifi Posted January 7, 2014 Author Posted January 7, 2014 Hmmmm. This information is based on what? On labels. Again they start counting at 3Km, but no plane to see still. As in ROF, labels start counting at 3 Km but here there is a plane to see. Without zoom talking, and not full FOV out.
FuriousMeow Posted January 7, 2014 Posted January 7, 2014 (edited) Well I showed you the screenshots, I saw the dots at 3km. It's our display devices as I said above. It's unfortunate so many experts on FOV, distance calculation, etc don't understand that you are playing with a scaled down display. Edited January 7, 2014 by FuriousMeow
71st_AH_Hooves Posted January 7, 2014 Posted January 7, 2014 On labels. Again they start counting at 3Km, but no plane to see still. As in ROF, labels start counting at 3 Km but here there is a plane to see. Without zoom talking, and not full FOV out. Fifi you are wrong about this. If you are flying with markers on, and you see the red dot of the enemy aircraft. If you hit pause and then turn markers off. You can see the dot of the aircraft. Put markers back on and unpause. The plane will close then register a distance at 3k. Do a little math and you see that the plane appears.at approx 4.0 to 4.5k away as a dot. Im on a 1920x1080. Perhaps your smaller pixels are effecting the visibility?
Fifi Posted January 7, 2014 Author Posted January 7, 2014 Is it the red/blue losange what you are calling a dot? If so yes i see it further than 3Km. But that's not this red/blue losange i want to see! That's a tiny plane! (as in COD TF4 if i have to say it) And it's out of question for me to play with ugly dot/losange and labels...
Crow Posted January 7, 2014 Posted January 7, 2014 (edited) Well I showed you the screenshots, I saw the dots at 3km. It's our display devices as I said above. It's unfortunate so many experts on FOV, distance calculation, etc don't understand that you are playing with a scaled down display. Your point doesn't make any sense. You're saying the game should not change because the player doesn't have hardware that isn't even available? The game may or may not be realistic (I would say that it is not), but no matter what the real answer to that question is the real point is that we have a handicap that has to be accounted for and it isn't currently if you don't use icons. Edited January 7, 2014 by Crow 1
unreasonable Posted January 7, 2014 Posted January 7, 2014 While that quote from the RoF forums has been parroted time and time again here, it doesn't match with observable reality in either RoF or BoS. You make statements, other people parrot? It does not match observable reality in BoS because the full viewing system has not yet been implemented, as I understand the situation. It absolutely matches reality in RoF as I have just checked for myself, and described how others might check this, as described in my previous post.
Crow Posted January 7, 2014 Posted January 7, 2014 You make statements, other people parrot? It does not match observable reality in BoS because the full viewing system has not yet been implemented, as I understand the situation. It absolutely matches reality in RoF as I have just checked for myself, and described how others might check this, as described in my previous post. Please post a video or image of an aircraft in flight visible at 8.5km and your settings when you did. I simply cannot reproduce this claim. I've messed with every graphics option in RoF and simply cannot get an aircraft to appear at that distance.
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