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Fifi

Spotting problem

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Hi,

 

Still unable to fight without labels  :unsure:

Labels on = too easy and not fun for me.

Labels off = unable to see a damn thing coming, playing at 2560x1440.

If the ennemy stays within +- 1500m radius, it's ok...but further, i'm at lost.

Please, devs, find something.

 

You guys playing 1920x1080 is it better? Would be a shame to reduce resolution for playability  :blink:

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I play at 1080 and at this point i have very few spotting issues. but i dont know if that is due to my familiarity with the maps or if I know what to look for. perhaps it is a combination of both.../

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I play at 1080 and at this point i have very few spotting issues. but i dont know if that is due to my familiarity with the maps or if I know what to look for. perhaps it is a combination of both.../

 

Could also be from practice at spotting the dot in WT. :biggrin:  I also have issues picking up the target, but once I see it moving I can usually follow it pretty well, it can still be an issue locating the target from the get go. If the backdrop wasn't covered in snow I would probably have a much harder time locating enemies.

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but doing strafing runs on allied trucks (which is what I use for the moment) isn't such a breeze as one might expect. For one, its difficult to detect the actual vehicles against the terrain even after spotting their blue colored numbers toddling along. My strafing run leads me almost above them before I can actually pick up the individual vehicles. Secondly, opening fire even when I think I stand a chance of hitting anything also proves to be futile as - either I'm doing it wrong - but I end up firing into space all the time while the trucks sail merrily along unhurt. Are there any quick tips on aiming while ground-strafing?

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but doing strafing runs on allied trucks (which is what I use for the moment) isn't such a breeze as one might expect. For one, its difficult to detect the actual vehicles against the terrain even after spotting their blue colored numbers toddling along. My strafing run leads me almost above them before I can actually pick up the individual vehicles. Secondly, opening fire even when I think I stand a chance of hitting anything also proves to be futile as - either I'm doing it wrong - but I end up firing into space all the time while the trucks sail merrily along unhurt. Are there any quick tips on aiming while ground-strafing?

 

The Icons can be misleading, sometimes they appear well above where the actual target is. I only use the icon as a general location finder when I have them on. When I can't get a visual on the moving objects I do a flyby first, once I spot the target I climb to get a good firing solution and dive, 45 degree's works best for me but everyone has their own comfort zone for that.

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I generally switch off the icons once I've spotted the targets because they're a distraction. I find the night mission actually easier because the head lights are a give away to the targets' location,

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Hi Fifi

 

I have this same problem, i think this is a graphic settings stuff. When i have a high settings i see very well contacts, from long distance, but i have only 30fps and for MP this settings are too high. When i set the graphics like in rof. When i zoom in the view on enemy plane he appears at a distance, and when i zoom out he disappears. And when we approach each other again appears. I do not have a super computer and I use low graphics settings, where I have 60 fps. In rof everything works properly. At low settings, I see contacts from very far away.

 

S! 

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I am running 1920x1080x144hz, which I guess would be considered 1080P? I am not sure...

 

But anyway right now, I can see the dots fairly well.

 

My graphics settings are at the highest, with exception of SSAO which I have on low.

Edited by dburnette

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Fifi says he can see the planes when they are within 1500m. I think his complaint is that he can't see them beyond that range. Same for me. For those that say they can see "fairly well" or claim no spotting issues, what exactly does that mean regarding viewing distance?

Edited by arjisme

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Fifi says he can see the planes when they are within 1500m. I think his complaint is that he can't see them beyond that range. Same for me. For those that say they can see "fairly well" or claim no spotting issues, what exactly does that mean regarding viewing distance?

 

 I wish I could say but I am not a good judge of how much distance we are talking here when I first spot the dot.

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Yeah, the fact that we can't spot at distances beyond 1500m is something of a problem, when positioning yourself for the upcoming fight. As soon as you're engaged, it's not really a problem.

 

I hate labels with a passion (at least in SP) so I resort to going up high and using external views to spot the enemy below me to avoid getting ambushed. It's kind of an immersion killer ATM and something that should be looked into along the line.

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A possible temporary solution would be to turn the label to just the decimal point of the distance label.  In affect removing the digits. 

I would like to see some kind of small dot at these distances.

Small fighters around 9km.  5 miles 1042 yards
Big fighters/small bombers around 11km.  6 miles 1470 yards
Medium bombers around 16km.  9 miles 1657 yards
Big bombers around 20km.    12 miles 752 yards

  • Upvote 2

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I totally agree with Fifi. I play with a new rig, everything on high or maximum and it runs smooth. But spotting the target is impossible when it's a bit further away. When trying to fight the 109 from the Lagg, I always extend before turning again. I always die. He pops up somewhere close where I SHOULD have been able to see him, but I NEVER do. Ever.

It's annoying as hell.

 

Rants over.

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I play on maximum settings with a rather small resolution (1440x900). On the highest zoom I can spot planes who are about 2,5 km´s in the distance. Loosing LoS in a dogfight is not really a problem. Still, 2,5km´s isn´t much when you are patroulling on a large map and search for enemy planes.

 

OT: I finally found the horizontal stabilizer on the 109 and what a difference it made! Befor that, the plane was so unstable I couldn´t even hit a castle right in front of me! But now I can down fighters in under a second. I was beginning to question my (still awfull) pilot skills :biggrin:

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Dot spotting is rubbish in this game at the moment imo. They've used the same system as RoF, which is useless in BoS due to much higher closing speeds. Its ridiculous that you can pick out targets in a zoomed in FoV way before wide FoV, and 2.5km is not enough.

 

LODS however are fantastic, just like in RoF, once you are engaged.

 

Something needs to be tweaked, BnZ is going to be a non event at the moment as is positioning yourself for a proper attack.

Edited by fruitbat
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A possible temporary solution would be to turn the label to just the decimal point of the distance label.  In affect removing the digits. 

I would like to see some kind of small dot at these distances.

Small fighters around 9km.  5 miles 1042 yards

Big fighters/small bombers around 11km.  6 miles 1470 yards

Medium bombers around 16km.  9 miles 1657 yards

Big bombers around 20km.    12 miles 752 yards

 

This numbers are very long range and only for one plane or one object, also ligth is important! A reflexion on a glass part of a plane or vehicle can make it visible from far away.  A immobile vehicule, like a tank, is  nearly impossible to spot from the air without help from the ground.

 

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I totally agree. At 1920x1080 the dots literally vanish from view at 3000~ meters. The visibility needs to be minimum 10,000 meters/yards.

 

The icons are okay as well, they're simple enough but some players will want a simulator style of play without icons. Within 3000 meters many pilots were able not only to spot aircraft but to identify.

 

This needs to be a priority. Spotting is everything. I would choose a reduced graphic quality if it meant good spotting. Good gameplay creates a 10 year long community of patrons and players, -not- graphics. Some gaming companies don't seem to get that.

 

But I don't think the guys here have the same issue, thinking that graphics or cosmetics take priority first. I think this spotting issue will be resolved.

 

It's very obvious to me, this isn't good, bad, right or wrong, but the 3,000 meter spotting limit is most obviously a World War 1(Rise of Flight) detail. For the slow moving bi-wing planes 3,000 meters is good, even great for spotting. For World War 2 aircraft that were quite capable of 400+ MPH flight, even in 1940, this spotting limit needs to be tripled at the minimum!

 

Take my word for it. If the spotting issue isn't fixed, the player base here will shrink. I don't want to see that. I've seen it in Warthunder, when the simmers were were ignored and people they labeled 'experts'(labeled by the devs/managers there, not the community) were also ignored. There aren't any simmers at Warthunder.

 

But again, I don't think this will be an issue here. In fact, this post is probably pointless! I imagine this will be fixed, it would not be in the interest of the BoS makers to ignore it.

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Fifi says he can see the planes when they are within 1500m. I think his complaint is that he can't see them beyond that range. Same for me. For those that say they can see "fairly well" or claim no spotting issues, what exactly does that mean regarding viewing distance?

 

Using icons on, when the kind of losange appear, i can't see nothing but the losange ---> plane must be further than 3 Km (exact distance we can't know)

When the losange is replaced by numbers, the counting start at 3Km ---> i still can't see nothing but the numbers decreasing.

According to the numbers, around 2Km i can see 1 black pixel...on a 28" screen at 2560X1440 no need to say if you loose this pixel for half second it's impossible to find it back.

The only distance i'm quite "comfortable" and do not have that much trouble finding plane is 1500m and under.

IMO that's way not enough for a WW2 sim.

Someone mentioned ground targets...i think i have same problem for spotting them. Maybe even worst because of hidding in the landscape. But in DCS i have same trouble with ground targets (not planes).

 

After 4 years of ROF flying, i never used any icons, and i'm sure i can pretty easily see and follow planes further than 3Km.

Have to test it using icons (if ROF icons are telling the distance :unsure: )

ROF ground targets aren't a problem either...

ROF spotting is great, i don't see why they can't reproduce it in BOS  :blink:

Aren't WW2 planes bigger than WW1?

Edited by Fifi

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What are spotting distances in RL?  I mean how far off can you spot a fast moving target at 10,000 M on the horizon?  Id be willing to bet 3,000 meters is closer to reality than people suspect.  But the question is are we as a community looking for realistic spotting ranges or slightly more "gamey" distances to facilitate gameplay?

Edited by SYN_Hooves

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What are spotting distances in RL? 

 

The only testimony i've readed about that, is from Fonck himself, saying 8 to 10Km was common for him (but he was wellknown as an excellent spotter)

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When I played European Air War we had long discussions about this and because we had the source code we could alter what we wanted.  We had tiny black dots that you still had to look for and sometimes it was still hard.  This is what we came up with.

Small fighters around 9km.  5 miles 1042 yards
Big fighters/small bombers around 11km.  6 miles 1470 yards
Medium bombers around 16km.  9 miles 1657 yards
Big bombers around 20km.    12 miles 752 yards

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Hi,

 

Still unable to fight without labels  :unsure:

Labels on = too easy and not fun for me.

Labels off = unable to see a damn thing coming, playing at 2560x1440.

If the ennemy stays within +- 1500m radius, it's ok...but further, i'm at lost.

Please, devs, find something.

 

You guys playing 1920x1080 is it better? Would be a shame to reduce resolution for playability  :blink:

Funny thing, I got the feeling it would turn out this way before we had access to alpha.

Unfortunately I wasn't wrong.

I gotta admit that all-white is quite confusing and on top of that I'm fighting old Il-2 1946 inherited aircraft spotting/vanishing prob.

Same as you.

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Interesting discussion and made me think about the same question that SYN_Hooves posted above.  My google-fu must be having a cramp because I came up with very little.   

I did find this pamphlet from the FAA on "Pilot Vision" that is quite interesting actually.

http://www.faa.gov/pilots/safety/pilotsafetybrochures/media/pilot_vision.pdf

 

Approximating real life visual acuity may be quite difficult since there is a small cone of high visual acuity able to discern details at great ranges and MUCH less acuity with peripheral vision.  Would it even be possible to have a small circle of the screen where other planes are at least detected at greater distances but invisible outside this small area?  (This small area is called the Foveal Cone.....I learned something new today!!)

 

This pamphlet does say that if you can see an oncoming aircraft from this very small (but high acuity) visual cone (Fovea) at 5,000 feet, with peripheral vision you would be able to detect it at 500 feet.  I'm a nurse and reasonably intelligent (shoes are on the correct feet) but this concept of aircraft spotting distance seems quite complicated to me.

Regards,

Derek

Edited by mudpuppy

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What are spotting distances in RL?  I mean how far off can you spot a fast moving target at 10,000 M on the horizon?

depends on many things, if the target is above or under the horizon line, it the atmosphere is clear or more or less dusty, etc...

Sometimes I have hard time to spot a white Cesna in final (announced by the tower) when I'm crosswind... and distance is then around less than 3 km.

And even when the same white Cesna is above the horizon, on clear sky, while knowing where to spot, I can miss it at distance < 10 km.

... but I don't have a particular good eyesight, even with full correction.

 

Being able to spot target from very far and 360° around was probably the main skill of the fighter aces.

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I have no problem to see the enemy on high settings graphic, only when i set low settings. 

 

Like this when i zoom in i see the dot: https://www.dropbox.com/s/6c4s0h5nc55mvkn/2013_12_28__14_17_25.bmp

 

then i zoom out i cant see: https://www.dropbox.com/s/p9j2ovo2mbo240l/2013_12_28__14_17_33.bmp

 

 

In RoF it works properly for me, regardless of the distance. In the BoS it works differently depending on the settings. I hope they would fix it. If someone can report it as a bug, my English is poor.

 

S!  

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Being able to spot target from very far and 360° around was probably the main skill of the fighter aces.

No doubt about it.

 

I bet some of them had average if not below average flying skills and physical attributes, but they nullified all that with their good positioning. And essentially making a good trap for E/A by spotting them early.

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I gotta admit that all-white is quite confusing and on top of that I'm fighting old Il-2 1946 inherited aircraft spotting/vanishing prob.

 

No, there's no inherited issue from IL-2 1946.  This is a different code base and doesn't have the vanishing problem old IL-2 did.  Once the aircraft are within viewing distance, they don't vanish into the background while you track them like they did with 1946.  The issue here what you can see at longer distances.

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Dohh...i was wrong with ROF! Incredible!

First time i use icons to see the distance, and it seems planes are appearing on my screen around 3Km!  Just like in BOS.

But there is a main difference...plane size! In ROF they seems bigger than BOS at 3Km. And flying much much slower of course. So plenty of time to search for them...

 

Anyway, here is how it looks in BOS on my screen.

2Km25 ---> i barely can't see it. No need to say fight is impossible.

1Km44 ----> good enough sight. 

Above 1Km50 ---> i loose sight in a fight  :(

In CloD, i can spot planes at 4km above horizon.

 

All this without using zoom. No bio-ionics eyes in RL. And i can't fly and fight with zoom on...

 

 

349322BOSspotting.jpg

 

182158BOSspotting2.jpg

817168CloDspotting.jpg

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1km50 is a heartbeat in WW2 aircombat.

Edited by dkoor

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I don't think the spotting issue in BoS is really any worse than it is in the original IL-2 1946 when played at 1920x1080. Back when I never played with icons but now with the modded game in wide screen and a higher res, I'm completely lost much of the time. Unfortunately I'm finding it equally difficult in BoS. We might be getting a double edged sword when we've asked for more realism and higher details. It's possible a lot of us won't be able to fly sims as we once did because of it. Fantasy will repeat real life in that the lesser able will either wash out or die quickly at the hands of the more skilled. :dry:  

  • Upvote 1

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Environment real life awareness is easier than flying with computers in my opinion, and IF actual spotting is really matching reality for devs, a COMPROMISE should be found to counterpart the computer enviromental awareness difficulty.

 

I'm all for realism, but sometime (and in this particular case) it might be just impossible to follow realism, for computer screen purpose, and quite small field of sight.

Playability should be always taken in consideration, and not sacrified to realism.

A very realistic game, but unplayable because such issue....unless activating ugly labels, could sadly result in a shelved title, here...

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Fifi, Jason said, after a live stream in TS, that the BoS spotting should be as good as in RoF. He hinted that the only reason it wouldn't be currently is because they might be working on improvements to it before porting it over.

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Dohh...i was wrong with ROF! Incredible!

First time i use icons to see the distance, and it seems planes are appearing on my screen around 3Km!  Just like in BOS.

But there is a main difference...plane size! In ROF they seems bigger than BOS at 3Km. And flying much much slower of course. So plenty of time to search for them...

 

Anyway, here is how it looks in BOS on my screen.

2Km25 ---> i barely can't see it. No need to say fight is impossible.

1Km44 ----> good enough sight. 

Above 1Km50 ---> i loose sight in a fight  :(

 

I would have to go in and check to be sure with labels on, but I would say based on your screenshots that is about what I am seeing on my 1920x1080x144hz monitor.

 

I will double check it with labels on next time I fly a mission.

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I don't think the spotting issue in BoS is really any worse than it is in the original IL-2 1946 when played at 1920x1080. Back when I never played with icons but now with the modded game in wide screen and a higher res, I'm completely lost much of the time. Unfortunately I'm finding it equally difficult in BoS. We might be getting a double edged sword when we've asked for more realism and higher details. It's possible a lot of us won't be able to fly sims as we once did because of it. Fantasy will repeat real life in that the lesser able will either wash out or die quickly at the hands of the more skilled. :dry:  

 

Disagree, i still play il2 1946 hsfx 7 a lot, at 1920 by 1200 full switch, and spot contacts way way out compared to BoS. 

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Disagree, i still play il2 1946 hsfx 7 a lot, at 1920 by 1200 full switch, and spot contacts way way out compared to BoS. 

So do I and it is much harder for me to spot bandits at the higher res than it was when I originally played 1946. So too in BoS. I'm hoping that a more streamlined, less obtrusive icon system will make it into BoS before release.

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ahh, i agree that at higher res in il2 1946 its harder to spot contacts than at a lower res, thats a definite, always has been. However its still much much easier to spot contacts at a high res in il2 than BoS though......

Edited by fruitbat

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