Spotting problem

[DD_Crash]

I would like to know what the Devs view of "smart scaling" is see this thread http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/2357-spotting-icons-labels-smart-scaling-and-other-ideas/

Edited January 2, 2014 by DD_Crash

[Rama]

@Sid

Nice screen setup.... of course it would be better for every player to have one like yours.... but do you suggest that's the solution and that every player should buy a 3-screen setup?

... well, then I know an even better solution, half-spheric professionnal simulator with 180° FoV...

But I think that most of the player will stay with a single screen ... for many reasons (money, space allowed to computer, etc...)

 

having to take my hands off my stick and throttle to use a mouse wheel to 'zoom' in and out totally kills the 'immersion' for me

You mean you have the money and space for your screen setup, and none for a Hotas with the zoom somewhere under your thumb, easy to use without getting your hands off stick or throttle?... or just you didn't do it because your screen setup allows you not to do it?
 

I always fly with a fixed FOV (albeit fully zoomed out), I don't see why it should be artificially programmed that aircraft pop into view at closer distance than anybody else's.

Maybe because the vast majority of players can't afford the needed screen setup to be able to use a fixed FoV and they have to use "zoom" anyway to change from wide FoV to narrow FoV since there's no other way to do with their single screen setup. The vas majority has to use zoom, for many things (not only spotting), but also to watch instruments, for example.

 

And again, I don't want that people using wide FoV (either on single screen or on beautifull setup like yours) don't see boogeys at a reasonnable distance. The only thing I would like to see (pure wish) is a method, for those unable to have a "natural" wide FoV screen setup, and having an interest in doing it, to exerce a spotting skill at a little bit longuer distance.

I would like to know what the Devs view of "smart scaling" is see this thread http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/2357-spotting-icons-labels-smart-scaling-and-other-ideas/

Yes, it would be also a nice idea. Especially if the "smart scalling" isn't done on the whole screen, but on a centered area (for example, inside a FoV of 10°), it would also help to simulate the sky scanning... and with much less use of the manual FoV changing mechanism (zoom).

[CreepiJim]

Another thing I noticed that to some extend goes into the category of spotting is a gritty post processing effect on the whole screen. I noticed that by looking around in the aircraft wondering if that grainy image is only seen through the glass, but it is also inside. On distance you halucinate and see dots where none are.

[AndyHill]

BTW; I disagree with that:

It disapear if you're fascinated by the target, but with a TiR, is totally doable to check six while in combat, and keep track of the target.

 

The problem there is more that players tend to use max zoom when on the 6 of the target, concentrating to get the best shot and forgetting anything else. And BTW, target fascination was also a problem IRL.

 

I think this is a point where we differ in opinion. In my experience TIR, although a good tool, doesn't even begin to approach real life. Well, maybe it does, but I needed to sound dramatic. Again, I'm not a combat pilot, but if seeing out of a car would be as hard as it is with a monitor and TIR in ETS2 I would've killed a number of people and would most likely be dead myself by now. Traffic as in reality could not exist in the form it exists today - although it is still somewhat dangerous, as statistics show, it's not nearly as lethal in reality.

 

I think the same goes for air combat. Without viewing assists air combat cannot exist in the form it was 70 years ago. For example the reason people are zoomed in and not checking six is because they have no choice, they have to fixate either to aim better and see the orientation of the target (to get apparent size closer to reality) or just to keep track of it - because his resolution, viewing area and framerate are so bad. Also, TIR isn't as good as reality even if it is the best available tool for the job.

 

I've flown quite a lot of "full real" missions and they can be fun and interesting, but I don't think they're a good representation of what air combat really was like. On a computer nothing really is, but I feel we can get closer by taking a look at the whole picture and making better compromises. In my case the immersion is broken when I know I'm flying blind - and so are my opponents - not when I see a dot or a string of text floating in the sky.

[=AH=_Sid_]

You mean you have the money and space for your screen setup, and none for a Hotas with the zoom somewhere under your thumb, easy to use without getting your hands off stick or throttle?... or just you didn't do it because your screen setup allows you not to do it?

 

Nope, using and F16 HOTAS in a WWI or WWII aircraft would again spoil the 'immersion' for me  Pics of my stick and throttle setup Here

 

I also shouldn't need to get binoculars out in flight to zoom in and out, my setup is fairly close to life size.

 

And again, I don't want that people using wide FoV (either on single screen or on beautifull setup like yours) don't see boogeys at a reasonnable distance. The only thing I would like to see (pure wish) is a method, for those unable to have a "natural" wide FoV screen setup, and having an interest in doing it, to exerce a spotting skill at a little bit longuer distance.

 

I'm not knocking the ability to zoom if you want/need to, the pc gaming platform will never be a level playing field, it isn't a playstation game, some will play on a 1600x900 monitor using a relatively old pc and hi-hat joystick for views, some will play on newer 'better' equipment using TIR for views, some may even play using 3D head mounted display devices (Oculus Rift), you can't lock it down to lowest common denominator.

 

But I very much disagree that the distance an object renders should be linked to FOV, it should be linked soley to distance. It didn't work in ROF when it was like that and I don't see why we should go back down that path with BOS.

Edited January 2, 2014 by =AH=_Sid_

[ST_ami7b5]

 

 

...

But I very much disagree that the distance an object renders should be linked to FOV, it should be linked soley to distance.

...

 

Very much agree with this

 

Interestic topic btw., and nice discussion so far...

[71st_AH_Hooves]

Something i have noticed is that the gradient of sky is much more noticeable in BoS than RoF. This is, to me anyway, the number one issue i have in spotting and losing targets. The target gets small and when it crosses a blue gradient line i lose him. Im hoping that they become slightly smoother as is in RoF. It could also possibly be that the sky is so much deeper blue in BoS. Making the gradient lines to have a higher amount of transition.

 

Anyone else experience this?

[Caudron431]

With this system (zoom to spot) i fear the eyes of  wingmen in a combat formation will become completely useless. There is a lot peripheral loss.

So far the fisheye concept by Robtek seems the most interesting, but even with something like this there will not be something like the RL possibility to move eyes (not only a head with only one eye like in game) to scan... Also, spotting something is not always related to having it straight in the center of your eyesight (what is more with great loss of peripheral vision!): to me (no offense) something like this (what we have now) looks more like someone with very bad eyesight trying hard to spot something without his spectacles .

Edited January 2, 2014 by RegRag1977

[Rama]

Pics of my stick and throttle setup Here

Wow!!!.... I know the price of it... that's nice to be able to aford it.

 

I also shouldn't need to get binoculars out in flight to zoom in and out, my setup is fairly close to life size.

Yes, you're an happy guy with such setup.

 

you can't lock it down to lowest common denominator.

But I don't want to "lock" anything. BTW, with your wonderfull setup, you allready have much more work to scan the sky than the usual owner of a single screen (if he can see the boogey at the same distance than you can, with a much wider FoV per screen (but the same overall FoV). What I would like to have is some way to be able to experience sky scanning on a single screen. That wouldn't detract anything to your setup hability and your way to do.

... and I think that game feature had to take in account the "lowest common denominator" setup, since it's by far the most common setup. If the happy fews don't neet this kind of feature, then glad for them.

 

But I very much disagree that the distance an object renders should be linked to FOV, it should be linked soley to distance.

 

But in real geometry of standard setup it IS linked.

When you display variable FoV on a fixed screen, then object apparent size DO depend on both distance and FoV. You can't display all objects with the same apparent size while changing FoV... it just doesn't work. Making all objects appearing (as "dots") at same distance whatever the FoV is purelly artificial (but ok with that... I'm just proposing a small distorsion in this artificial rendering).

 

BTW, I also like DD_Crash variation, with some adaptation (as I wrote above).

[Caudron431]

Something i have noticed is that the gradient of sky is much more noticeable in BoS than RoF. This is, to me anyway, the number one issue i have in spotting and losing targets. The target gets small and when it crosses a blue gradient line i lose him. Im hoping that they become slightly smoother as is in RoF. It could also possibly be that the sky is so much deeper blue in BoS. Making the gradient lines to have a higher amount of transition.

 

Anyone else experience this?

Same here!

[Bassly]

Zoom to spot is a no go. You should be able to spot targets as long with "normal" FOV as with zoomed in FOV, but when zoomed in you should get more details what you are looking at.

[dkoor]

What are the arguments for Zoom to be in the game?

 

Does it resembles IRL situation or is it more a simulation of eyework, or neither?

Some say Zoom should represent Situational Awereness, but in all honesty I don't see some good link between SA and Zoom.

Others say Zooming in should bring more details.

 

I mean we are all humans and we are all aware that our eyes don't work that way IRL.

 

So... what are we exactly trying to do here with the Zooming business?

 

I'm interested to see what people think about this as I see more and more of this Zoom thing and so far I'm not really convinced about it.

Edited January 2, 2014 by dkoor

[=LD=4brkfast]

I appreciate a lot of this commentary

 

But here is a simple truth about ww2 air combat sims.

 

A dark dot is going to be required. Dark, clearly visible planes, especially on white ground or clear skies. And they need to be visible at 4-5 km with ease. Not doing so woukd take away some strengths of aircraft.

 

A 190 or something like a p40 were renown as excellent divers, retaining good energy and capable of 500+ mph(not sustaibed, but long enough to exchange it back for alt). They were also able to dive from ten thousand feet to around one and zoom back up. A zoom, optical fubction may be required just for people with lesser pc performance to identify, it will replace a a human eyes ability to focus, but this is a side note. If one can't spot at long range and track, then there's no boom and zoom.

 

Dark objects, black dots, until we have 5k by 5k resolution standard, that is the way to go for quality gameplay. Even then, there are scanning techniques to spot aircraft that I find myself doing even in the sim world that came natural to some pilots. It will probably still be a challenge to spot until one hones this spotting skill.

 

Even on older sim games you had to scan and train your eyes for movement. And in then, the a/c are very dark and stick out nicely. I imagine with enhanced graphics, ground detail, it will be harder to spot, but if done right, a moving object should still stick out.

[AndyHill]

On a computer monitor you have far worse resolution, framerate and viewing area than in reality. Zooming is intended to help with resolution and viewing area by giving you the option of either sacrificing viewing area for a better resolution / apparent size of object or the other way around. In reality you would have both of these abilities at the same time so even with zoom (depending on the amount of course) you're worse off than you'd be in a real plane, but it does help a bit in certain situations. 

[dkoor]

What you say AndyHill makes sense but in reality we get double crippled, first by the fact that computer screen doesn't offers nowhere near IRL visibility and then you are required to do extra action to see right.

Even then it is nowehere near IRL situation because if you try to track zoomed in your SA goes out of window.

Simply put I see it as kind of punishment and unnecessary complication.

 

The only workable, or better put, good solution I saw so far is from =LD=4brkfast above post.

Suggestion of a dark dot clearly visible even if for the most part wasn't like that IRL, what matter is the final outcome and that is that we get almost IRL overall impression.

 

Some it's not realistic complaints about it also don't hold much water as crapness of low res nor extra zooming in (basically some sort of weird manual focusing in as opposed to IRL near insta-autofocus) isn't realistic either.

Edited January 2, 2014 by dkoor

[DD_Crash]

one point to remember is the pilot we are playing could/should have far better eyesight than my soon to be 64 year old eyes currently have

[dkoor]

Aye, that too.

 

But that also is a double edged sword.

 

One with sight probs will probably have probs seeing small black dots on monitor too.

 

But I think we shouldn't get very far with this as it will open whole new worlds, before you know it you will have weight whiners who would argue that his 109 should be climbing better than his buddy's as he has only 64 kilos vs his squadmate's heavy 90kg.

 

Etc.

[DD_fruitbat]

What ever system we end up with, some people will always see contacts first. I fly in a squad regularly, and i know the people that will nearly always pick out the contacts first. The more that flying comes second nature, the more spare capacity you have to use for looking around amongst other things.

Edited January 2, 2014 by fruitbat

[71st_AH_Hooves]

So say the devs agreed they want to increase the spotting capability. How exactly would they do it. I mean the no shit actual implementation. Do they make the last lod bigger? Do the sub the last lod with a big dot? What is the mechanism in game that would provide a seamless transition from a dot to an actual aircraft lod?

 

Also on a seperate issue. Can someone take some comparitive screeshots with simar parameters in both bos and rof? Say looking at an enemy ac at just over 3k above the horizon with markers off.

[AndyHill]

Zoom and dots are not mutually exclusive. You will still need to zoom in to a dot to have even close to realistic plane identification abilities.

[Fennec]

Hello , 

 

i find this sim great so far , however i didn't know where to post this , but when i fly a dogfight mission , i see the "plane dot" at the very last moment  , i don't know if it's because it spawns the enemy plane super close to me or if it's because it's intended  , but i think it would be nice if i could see the dots from farther away  perhaps ?  in  my humble opinion , maybe it  would probably be more credible as in a real life ULM , i can see small sized planes  from very far at co-alt , maybe around  2 km if i know they are there , unless the sun is blinding me or if they are below against terrain .  Anyway , wish the devs the best of luck for their work 

[Fifi]

Reading Johnnie Johnson memories (RAF pilot), he said he was able to spot planes from 8Km in normal weather.

2 cents other account 

[Fennec]

wow , 8km is quite far , not sure i can see a small plane from this distance  but it"s probably possible since a RAF pilot must have exceptional eyesight and training to spot planes from the cockpit , also if he has googles or eyeglasses it helps cause the sunlight and refractions is a major hinderance ( my eyes want to  "cry" when i focus to see spot something)  

 

But yes i think minimum 2-3km to spot a fighter plane profile in the sky at similar altitudes in good wheather conditions should probably be possible perhaps  , hopefully the devs will look at this  

Edited January 4, 2014 by Matagoro

[FuriousMeow]

So instantly spotting an aircraft from 5 to 8K out. All aircraft should be instantly spottable, no concentration required. Everything spotted with ease, so we should have smart scaling because icons are somehow less realistic than that.

 

And then all of those accounts of bouncing aircraft and being shot from aircraft they didn't see were just figments of the imagination.

 

I'm sorry guys, I just did a test - and while it's difficult - the dots are there out to at least 5K (that's where the aircraft spawn currently). They may not instantly pop out, but then neither do real aircraft - and then we should make all aircraft dark dots so that they can be easily seen because it would otherwise take away from some aircraft's strengths? Unless that aircraft's strengths was being Kitt from Knight Rider and calling out contacts to the pilot, it doesn't do that.

 

I circled the dots at 5K in the screenshots. There's also a zoomed in shot. Hard to see in a still, yes. When I saw it flying I didn't lose it - but just having contacts pop out, nah - use icons then. Icons are no less real than dots that pin point aircraft or the smart scaling.

 

[Fifi]

You're joking Meow aren't you? I hope so...

Can't see a damn thing in your red circle. Neither in mine at 3 or even 2.5 Km.

"Hard to see in a still, yes"... i would say "nothing to see in a still, yes"

Let's be serious.

If a fighter pilot was unable to spot plane at 3Km in a clear weather as we actually have, he should give up this job and focuse on staying grounded.

 

 

And then all of those accounts of bouncing aircraft and being shot from aircraft they didn't see were just figments of the imagination.

 

 

Bouncings were mainly done according to sun position and clouds hidding...or even low six. 

Edited January 4, 2014 by Fifi

[FuriousMeow]

Well, I can see it. It's far easier in motion but it's present.

 

Yes, I'm serious it's there the JPEG format loses it.

 

No, bounces were not just from sun or clouds - I don't have them bookmarked anymore, and I donated most my literature in a move but there are several memoirs that talk of being bounced on clear days from below - and the majority of contacts that were made during WWII were against formations of aircraft. Not just one.

 

You have the tools to see them, you either zoom in to attain the correct perspective, you buy a larger monitor, or you play with icons on. This other stuff, is just throwing in gaming aids for those who love to sit above the party and pounce pretending to be their Experten heros.

Edited January 4, 2014 by FuriousMeow

[=RvE=Windmills]

So instantly spotting an aircraft from 5 to 8K out. All aircraft should be instantly spottable, no concentration required. Everything spotted with ease, so we should have smart scaling because icons are somehow less realistic than that.

 

And then all of those accounts of bouncing aircraft and being shot from aircraft they didn't see were just figments of the imagination.

 

I'm sorry guys, I just did a test - and while it's difficult - the dots are there out to at least 5K (that's where the aircraft spawn currently). They may not instantly pop out, but then neither do real aircraft - and then we should make all aircraft dark dots so that they can be easily seen because it would otherwise take away from some aircraft's strengths? Unless that aircraft's strengths was being Kitt from Knight Rider and calling out contacts to the pilot, it doesn't do that.

 

I circled the dots at 5K in the screenshots. There's also a zoomed in shot. Hard to see in a still, yes. When I saw it flying I didn't lose it - but just having contacts pop out, nah - use icons then. Icons are no less real than dots that pin point aircraft or the smart scaling.

 

5KM dot.jpg

5KM dot zoomed in on.jpg

 

 

 

No but seriously I don't see anything.

[Fifi]

Meow, i don't even know how you can say your plane was 5Km. Don't tell us stories please.

Using icons, they start counting and displaying numbers at exactly 3Km, not before.

A bit further than 3Km, i get a red/blue losange, that's all...

I have no way to know what distance precisely they spawn. Anyway no big deal because there is nothing to see on my 27" high definition screen.

[FlatSpinMan]

I'm also finding it very, very hard to spot anything at the moment. I never see the enemy initially. Once battle is joined I can generally track them most of the time.

 

I'm surprised how hard I find it to spot vehicles currently, too. I really thought they'd be more noticeable in this game than in the old IL2 but so far, and I know it is still Alpha, the visibility doesn't seem much different to me.

[6S.Manu]

What ever system we end up with, some people will always see contacts first. I fly in a squad regularly, and i know the people that will nearly always pick out the contacts first. The more that flying comes second nature, the more spare capacity you have to use for looking around amongst other things.

 

One of my teammates is an eagle in IL2 1946, but he's totally blind in RoF.   

 

I still think that we need a compromise:

- guys that hates icons are going to lose contacts who would be clearly visible. Plus I defy you to spot pixels after a day of full-work/study. -> not realistic

- guys who love icons are going to have full SA given the current way icons are rendered (based on range); far contacts and near ones are rendered at the same time, in the same way -> not realistic

 

I still claim after these years that the right solution is in the middle: render the icons only when the contacts are in the right position to be spotted, otherwise you don't render anything. Far icons appear only in the center of the screen after some seconds (relative to the condition of visibility: distance, size, reflection, speed, landscape/clouds ect).

 

Render these icons also on the screen borders too if there is something easily spot-table (a flash for example): it's used in Arma to simulate peripheral vision, as we are not going to search enemies through a 22" window.

 

These icons have to be really minimal, easily spot-table but should not give more info than the type of contact (plane, tank, ship to not confuse them when they are seen in the same camera): when you see them then zoom 1-2 seconds just to ID them.

 

So people is not forced to run on lower resolution and this limits cheesy players who run lower graphical settings to see you through the clouds: visibility should be the same for every player, given that he actually looks in the right part of sky. Try to fly a night mission: there will be people acting on gamma ratio to have better contrast.

 

Guys, this should be a WW2 CFS: flying without the possibility to reproduce real tactics it's pointless.

Edited January 4, 2014 by 6S.Manu

[ATAG_Bliss]

Just make the spotting system like the original IL2 or IL2COD (I begged for years for this in ROF) where servers have the ability to set dot range.  For instance, our IL2COD server has dot range (distance you can see dots/pixels) at 14km.  It's obviously not easy to see a dot at 14km away, but they are there.  And obviously the LOD isn't drawn until a more life like appearance (I think around 5km).  But the point is, the sandbox of the other IL2 titles let you manage the settings however you liked.  Hopefully we'll get some variables/settings that the user/server operator can dictate how they like.  Something like only 5km isn't going to cut it in a WWII sim. 

[AndyHill]

This other stuff, is just throwing in gaming aids for those who love to sit above the party and pounce pretending to be their Experten heros.

 

But how would that work if everyone sees them coming?

[SKG51_robtek]

But how would that work if everyone sees them coming?

That is the point!

Not everyone would see them, only people with a good SA and the discipline to scan the sky correctly would see the small dot early enough to make a difference, as it was in RL.

Except with icons, then really would be easier for everyone to spot the attacker.

I'm with ATAG_Bliss opinion here.

Edited January 4, 2014 by robtek

[AndyHill]

Well, that was indeed the point I was trying to make. 

 

No monitor you buy will give you the resolution, framerate and field of view or the ease of looking around you have in reality, so unassisted viewing will never be realistic. Neither will assisted viewing, but it might get you closer if done correctly.

[Uriah]

I agree with Bliss and AndyHill said it well.

[71st_AH_Hooves]

A dot would be nice. However im not to sure how i feel about it being settable. Ive always thought that core functions of a game should be the same on all servers. That way its not such a drastic transition from one server to another.

 

After comparing the sky from RoF to BoS' current sky. I still think much of the issue currently is the extreme gradient changes as the sky transitions from light at the horizon, to very dark blue at its highest point. Thats where i lose the A/C 99% of the time. As long as im fighting in the horizontal i can keep track.

 

 

I have been told that both the sky and the new weather system are still being worked on quite a bit. So ill have to reserve judgement until something new is presented.

 

As far as glinting is concerned, BoS already has this effect. The entire wing surface flashes when at the right angle. However that effect fades dramatically the farther you get from the plane. If they could amplify this effect as well as extend it to the distant lods. They'd have a very realistic glinting system. Time will tell.

[Rjel]

As far as glinting is concerned, BoS already has this effect. The entire wing surface flashes when at the right angle. However that effect fades dramatically the farther you get from the plane. If they could amplify this effect as well as extend it to the distant lods. They'd have a very realistic glinting system. Time will tell.

I like this idea. The LODs in this game are maybe the best I've seen at longer ranges. I can definitely make out a 109 from a LaGG. Then again it might be partly in my mind because only two planes are currently available. But still it's far better than we've seen before.

 

I agree too with your views on the current sky in BoS. It is hard to believe what we currently see will be what we will have in the final version. Not based on how good it looks in RoF.

[Crow]

I agree with most of what was posted here. Spotting is currently unplayable with icons off. Some compromise has to be made for the fact that we are viewing things through a 4 sq. ft. box.
 

To respond to an earlier question/comment, Jason answered a question I asked back during one of the livestreams. He said that the dots/spotting would be the same as RoF. I don't know if they have changed their minds and are planning to change it, but currently it appears that the rendering is identical to the RoF system.

 

Unforunately, RoF's system simply isn't going to be very much fun in a WWII sim. The FoV required to see contacts at a distance makes the game almost unplayable. I still don't play RoF for this very reason. I hate icons, but without them the game is practically impossible to play. I will be quite sad if I can't play BoS either without using icons. I probably just won't play the game at all. It'll be back to 1946 again I guess.

 

 

Edit: The "smart scaling" mentioned earlier is an excellent solution for those of us that don't want to use icons (obviously icons would be an option in the settings still). Falcon 4 and IL-2: 1946 are the two games I think solved this issue the best. There's a reason why people still play both of those games 10+ years after their release...

Edited January 5, 2014 by Crow

[Fifi]

To respond to an earlier question/comment, Jason answered a question I asked back during one of the livestreams. He said that the dots/spotting would be the same as RoF. I don't know if they have changed their minds and are planning to change it, but currently it appears that the rendering is identical to the RoF system.

 

 

Without zooming, currently ROF spawn planes at 3Km (always thought it was further, but was wrong) and i can see them. I have time to maneuvre for fight or evade because slow plane speed..

Without zooming, BOS planes icons start counting at 3Km as in ROF, but nothing to see. Furthermore i have very little time to maneuvre for fight or evade because of plane speed.

 

If Jason keep the same way and distance for planes as WW1 ROF, it would be an error IMO. I'll be out soon sadly.

[=38=Tatarenko]

The poll on the Russian forum is leaning heavily towards an extension of the viewing distance.