Spotting problem

[dburne]

Yes I think that is about what I am seeing at 1920x1080.

 

 

 

[Fifi]

Fifi, Jason said, after a live stream in TS, that the BoS spotting should be as good as in RoF. He hinted that the only reason it wouldn't be currently is because they might be working on improvements to it before porting it over.

 

Ah, really? If so, that's good news. 

Hoping they'll improve it! 

 

I added a report in the suggestion official thread.

Edited December 29, 2013 by Fifi

[6./ZG26_Gielow]

Well, in real life you can see a jet airliner on daylight time around 7.5 to 10 nautical miles away using TCAS system for spotting them. Considering wingspan of 34 meters is 3 times larger than a WW2 fighter, you should see a small plane around 3 nm (5.5 km) away from you.

[6./ZG26_Gielow]

About vehicles, you can see cars and trucks on highways like dots around 10.000ft.

[Uriah]

I fly IL2 with the 4.12.2 mode using resolution 1280x960 and can see planes well at a much more pleasing distance than I can in BOS.  I tried BOS in the same resolution and did not notice any improvement at spotting the planes without labels.  Does not mean there is not a difference, just that I did not notice any 'improvement'.

[Jaws2002]

 We might be getting a double edged sword when we've asked for more realism and higher details. It's possible a lot of us won't be able to fly sims as we once did because of it. Fantasy will repeat real life in that the lesser able will either wash out or die quickly at the hands of the more skilled.   

 

 

It has nothing to do with real life. When pilots tell you they sometimes have problems spotting planes at shorter distance it's most of the time because  atmospheric conditions/weather. Well, we don't have none of that in game. No haze, no clouds, no pollution. Just perfectly clear skies.  The game engine makes spotting planes more difficult than it should be.

  

In Il-2 there were some problems here and there, on some maps, mostly when you tried to spot planes below you, but the system was a lot better. First, the spotting distance was not dependent on zoom, then all planes by default were visible, against the clear sky from further away and lastly, when playing offline, or as host online, you could set the "dot range" to make it work better.

 ROF is ok for me. Never had problems. Cliffs of Dover, as it is now, is about perfect in this respect.

 

 For me, so far, from all the flight sims I've played, BOS is the worst in this respect. If they don't tweak the dot range a bit, this can only get worse as they add weather to the game. Right now, we have basically a single dogfight mission and the planes always spawn in the same place. That's why we can fight the AI. If we had to play more normal missions, where you don't know what you go up against, you don't know how many, when, where, what altitude, I don't think this is playable with icons off right now. I don't use them anyway, but for now it's ok. I know exactly where is what.

I don't know how would work, if someone would throw me online right now, in a server with 40-50 players.   

[BeastyBaiter]

It's been stated officially that the long range spotting system hasn't been implemented yet. They are still considering various options, including what was used in RoF (which I see fine in). I wouldn't worry about it, this is one of those known things that simply hasn't been programmed in yet. Can't remember where exactly I read the official response, might have been in one of the dev blogs but it could have been in the first thread on this issue that was made during the first public test with guns (week 3 I think).

 

Edit: come to think of it, it could also have been during one of the live streams while on TS3 with Jason. Sorry I can't remember where I read/heard it, but it was from one of the devs.

Edited December 29, 2013 by =LD=King_Hrothgar

[J4SCrisZeri]

Lucky you guys debating this, at least you TRY.

Im totally unable to fight without labels.

[Fifi]

Yes, it's not that funny actually. Always have a finger on the H key as soon as plane pass the critical 1.5 Km.

[Veteran66]

For spotting problems

real live and PC display have some differences in the presentation:

 

So my suggestion are:

make the

LOD in 3000m 100% bigger

LOD in 2500m 75% bigger

LOD in 2000m 50% bigger

LOD in 1500m 30% bigger

LOD in 1000m 25% bigger

LOD in  700m 15% bigger

LOD in  500m 10% bigger

[dkoor]

Disagree, i still play il2 1946 hsfx 7 a lot, at 1920 by 1200 full switch, and spot contacts way way out compared to BoS. 

Yep judging solely from Fifi's pics 1946 is better regarding spotting boogeys.

And also this issue should not be let go easily.

 

It is of utmost importance for the title success IMO.

[YoYo]

For me too, this must be improved. I fly only without icons in all my sims (dont like any icons, labels, infos, noob facilities ect). Not for me.

 

In BoS its difficult to spot something from long distance - and in real I see plane in the air (as a dot) till the 10th km I think (I fly too - Cessna, CTSW). In Bos its a something like 1-2 km. Thats all.Strange is too - when I take a + maximum zoom I see a dot, with minus zoom this dot disappears. Why???? It isnt a realistic too. This "dot" must be always, not only with zoom +/-.

 

Maybe I give an example not from "serious" sim - War Thunder (but Realistic - FRB only - no icons, battles from cocpit only ect). Here this contact spot is very well done - small dot from long distance, but its a present and bigger of the airplane from short.

 

Id like to have too same solution in BoS .

Edited December 29, 2013 by YoYo

[LLv34_Flanker]

S!

 

 YoYo, that is about the only thing WT does well. Spotting of planes and their dot/LOD transitions. But as said, the system is still tweaked so I remain hopeful I can drop the labels soon.

[II./JG27_Rich]

I remember just before my friend Graf.. who was Pope back them and I got into DiD with old IL-2 he said that we would have to learn how to fly without icons...ARE YOU NUTS!! I can't imagine flying with them now ever 

[dburne]

I have been practicing with bombs and guns this morning for ground attacks, and find it somewhat difficult to spot the targets until I am really close.

Have been running with the labels on while I learn ground attacks, can't imagine me being able to find those rascals without labels or pointers on where they are , or being able to get lined up properly in time...

Perhaps I need stronger glasses too

[LLv34_Flanker]

S!

 

 I think the contrast between the target and terrain is the key added with movement. Human eye notices movement but in games it is hard to mimic RL spotting without breaking it badly or being outright horrible.

[Rjel]

It has nothing to do with real life. When pilots tell you they sometimes have problems spotting planes at shorter distance it's most of the time because  atmospheric conditions/weather. Well, we don't have none of that in game. No haze, no clouds, no pollution. Just perfectly clear skies.  The game engine makes spotting planes more difficult than it should be.

I wasn't implying it is like real life. I've never, in almost 25 years of flying sims, had an issue with discerning real life from a game. What I was saying is that those who are able to pick up enemies in BoS will have a decided advantage over those of us who have troubles with it. As in real life. How it is resolved in this sim, if it is, remains to be seen.  

[SKG51_Joker]

What I was saying is that those who are able to pick up enemies in BoS will have a decided advantage over those of us who have troubles with it. As in real life. How it is resolved in this sim, if it is, remains to be seen.  

Absolutely correct. But how it is resolved will be crucial to the sucess of the sim and is to be considered carefully.

 

In absent of the feature of clear and reliable spotting and following contacts in standard settings of the game people will try and gain advandtage.

Presumably by any post processig of graphics, aka cheat.

 

What only the assupmtion of that does to a game: I´ll leave it to your phantasy.

 

Preparing a `sim` environment for multiplayer is a difficult task when trying to balance

eye candy,

`realism`,

playability,

immersion,

gameplay (it´s a game after all!)

 

Maybe icons are a immersion killer, but they give some balance at a point so it might make sense.

Dont get me wrong, I HATE icons, but maybe there are to many variables to be solved and you sacrifice one for another.

 

A key competence for a game developping company is to create a game envrionment which is worth playing.

I´m very curious to find out how 777 studio will solve that one!

Especially since higher speed in WW-II Airwarfare needs other tactical concepts (in-game) compared to their successful ROF WW-I implementation.

Edited December 29, 2013 by ZG15_Falke

[dkoor]

Perhaps some limited style black icons that go from barely visible, opacity 10%, to full visible icons 100% when boogey enters range of 4-5km would be a nice compromise.

WarClouds style.

 

This isn't as much as balancing the game as it is balancing the hardware and furthermore game tweaking knowledge.

There will always be people who can tweak the game to see better, this or the other way. Essentially gaming the game.

And there are always people with loads of money who will fly by looking at several enormous screens.

 

These small black icons served as an equalizer.

 

Great one.

[SKG51_Joker]

Fifi, Jason said, after a live stream in TS, that the BoS spotting should be as good as in RoF. He hinted that the only reason it wouldn't be currently is because they might be working on improvements to it before porting it over.

 

I really missed that one, so I´m calm again.

[YoYo]

Here examples from CoD. Distance for fighters/bombers something like 7-10 km.

 

 

 

 

Full res (CoD+TF4.0):

 

http://i921.photobucket.com/albums/ad52/rafikst/IL-2%20Cliffs%20of%20Dover%20TF%20mod/Screenshot75202_zpsfd354e37.jpg~original

 

http://i921.photobucket.com/albums/ad52/rafikst/IL-2%20Cliffs%20of%20Dover%20TF%20mod/Screenshot77499_zps354b7765.jpg~original

[BeastyBaiter]

I really missed that one, so I´m calm again.

 

Indeed this really is a discussion about nothing. It's just something that hasn't been programmed in yet. I don't know of anyone who complains about spotting in RoF. They really did nail it. There is always room for improvement I suppose, but if I were to rate it I'd give it a 9/10. This is just one of those things we'll have to wait for here much like other features not yet implemented.

[Fifi]

Indeed this really is a discussion about nothing. It's just something that hasn't been programmed in yet. I don't know of anyone who complains about spotting in RoF. They really did nail it. There is always room for improvement I suppose, but if I were to rate it I'd give it a 9/10. This is just one of those things we'll have to wait for here much like other features not yet implemented.

 

Yes ROF gets a 9/10 here too for spotting planes, but sorry King, we didn't know it wasn't implemented....or at least was an ongoing.

Mind you, we can still discuss about how it could/should be 

[YoYo]

Ok, and screen from Today from CoD too. Here is example of very long distance (perhaps more than 13 km...).

 

Direct (full res) : http://img850.imageshack.us/img850/781/n38t.png

 

 

Hope in BoS it will be improved in the final.

[racingslippers]

Hopefully the long range spotting can be optimized also for Oculus Rift users.

[Jaws2002]

Indeed this really is a discussion about nothing. It's just something that hasn't been programmed in yet. I don't know of anyone who complains about spotting in RoF. They really did nail it. There is always room for improvement I suppose, but if I were to rate it I'd give it a 9/10. This is just one of those things we'll have to wait for here much like other features not yet implemented.

 

 

I missed that. It's good to know. ROF is good for ww1. I wouldn't give it  9/10 because the spotting distance is connected with the zoom. That's the only bad thing about ROF dots.

[Rama]

I wouldn't give it  9/10 because the spotting distance is connected with the zoom. That's the only bad thing about ROF dots.

So what's bad for some is good for others.

I find the obligation to zoom in order to spot at long distance a very good thing. that force the player to spend time looking for the sky in zoom mode in regular interval to detect possible boogeys, which is a good simulation of the concentration you have to put on spotting, don't make it easy for everybody, and gives a reward to those with a good spoting disciplin.

Not everybody should have the spoting skill of a fighter ace without exercise.

[Fifi]

Agreed Rama.

Perso, i only use zoom feature to identify target (air or ground) once spotted in regular FOV.

I'm unable to fly around with zoom on all the time for spotting purpose. My TIR would make me sick very quickly!

Edited December 30, 2013 by Fifi

[Finkeren]

The ability to spot at longer ranges when zoomed in, is not something I agree with, but it's a completely seperate issue from what we have in BoS right now.

 

I'm really looking forward to, what they do with long range spotting. I was always quite happy with the way it was done in RoF (except for the zoom issue) In RoF spotting comes naturally after a short period of adjusting to the Digital Nature rendering, and ID'ing planes feels natural and fluent, no certain point, where the details just pop up, and you immediately identify. No, depending on the size of the aircraft, and how distinct it is from other types of aircraft, proper identification may range from well over 2 km to just a couple hundred meters.

 

I really hope we get the same experience in BoS. Ofc we'll initially have fewer types to distinguish between, and some are quite distinct and hard to misidentify (like the Ju-87). But just imagine stalking a couple of LaGG-3s from behind in a Bf-109 expecting easy pickings, just to have them turn on you and discover, that they're actually La-5s. 

[6./ZG26_Gielow]

La5s are easy meat. La5FN are a different history.

[Finkeren]

La5s are easy meat. La5FN are a different history.

I wouldn't be so sure of that. While it's still a slow climber and can't quite keep up with the Bf 109G at low altitude, it should have markedly better handling and the 2 ShVAKs are not to be trifled with.

[6./ZG26_Gielow]

Dont forget that La5 have manual propeller, mixture and unbalanced flight controls. Lots of workload and flaws to be dealt by the pilot.

[Finkeren]

Dont forget that La5 have manual propeller, mixture and unbalanced flight controls. Lots of workload and flaws to be dealt by the pilot.

Eeeh... no. It has a constant speed propeller, which means very little workload. As for the rest, it's really no different than the La-5FN. I think we all agree, that the Bf-109 was an exceptionally easy plane to fly in combat (though its controls weren't exactly the best balanced either - the rudder was rather less effective) and generally superior in performance to most pre-1944 VVS fighters.

 

I'm simply saying, that the La-5 is not the LaGG-3 and will pose something of a challenge to a 109 pilot, especially if they have numerical superiority.

[dkoor]

So what's bad for some is good for others.

I find the obligation to zoom in order to spot at long distance a very good thing. that force the player to spend time looking for the sky in zoom mode in regular interval to detect possible boogeys, which is a good simulation of the concentration you have to put on spotting, don't make it easy for everybody, and gives a reward to those with a good spoting disciplin.

Not everybody should have the spoting skill of a fighter ace without exercise.

How do you zoom like that IRL or better yet, I get the impression that you are suggesting that zooming is actually a good way to simulate concentration AKA situation awareness?

[Reflected]

Hi,

 

Still unable to fight without labels 

Labels on = too easy and not fun for me.

Labels off = unable to see a damn thing coming, playing at 2560x1440.

If the ennemy stays within +- 1500m radius, it's ok...but further, i'm at lost.

Please, devs, find something.

 

You guys playing 1920x1080 is it better? Would be a shame to reduce resolution for playability 

 

You should have started with no labels in the first place. I often lose the enemy ,but I don't have any problem spotting the enemy. I play at 1920x1200. Of course, planes move faster than in RoF, easier to lose them. 

[=LD=4brkfast]

My squadmates and I were talking about this issue. I was wrong before, the planes are actually rendered far beyond 3000 meters.

 

The issue is the airplanes are not dark enough. They need to be black, very very dark, easily visible, especially in this current environment with clear blue skies and a white ground, you should very very easily be able to spot them at any alt, speed and a range up to 10,000 km or beyond.

 

If they are made very dark, the issue is fixed. Because the planes are rendered, zoomed in, I can see what the aircraft is as well, it is that they are a light gray and tend to mush or blend when zoomed out whether they are coming or going.

 

Some of these airplanes were capable of booming and zooming at such incredible speeds and alts, a 190 was similar to some American planes that could literally dive from 10,000 feet, or 3,000 meters~, retain energy all the way at high speed, take a shot and go back up to 10,000 feet/3,000~ meters with ease.

[Fifi]

Greg, don't you think around 2Km is a bit short?

Further than 2Km, without zooming, i'm unable to spot/follow (see what i can see at 2.25 on the screenshot!)

As stated above, in COD planes can be spotted further than 4Km. I'm flying COD without labels, and it is as good as the 3 Km spotting distance of ROF because of the speed difference.

Planes are flying too fast to keep the 3Km spotting distance IMO! ...and anyway, actually there is NOTHING to see at 3Km 

[Reflected]

Greg, don't you think around 2Km is a bit short?

Further than 2Km, without zooming, i'm unable to spot/follow (see what i can see at 2.25 on the screenshot!)

As stated above, in COD planes can be spotted further than 4Km. I'm flying COD without labels, and it is as good as the 3 Km spotting distance of ROF because of the speed difference.

Planes are flying too fast to keep the 3Km spotting distance IMO! ...and anyway, actually there is NOTHING to see at 3Km 

 

Now that you say it like that, I think you're right.

[Rama]

How do you zoom like that IRL or better yet, I get the impression that you are suggesting that zooming is actually a good way to simulate concentration AKA situation awareness?

Yes, that's what I'm suggesting. It take a lot of concentration and some method for a real pilot to scan the sky for boogeys. It's not an instantaneous dot spot.

The only drawback is that a real pilot wont loose his periferal vision like the simmer will if zooming. It's IMO a small drawback.

 

This doesn't mean actual spoting distances are ok. Just that I do like having to zoom in order to spot plane from far distances.

[SKG51_robtek]

Yes, that's what I'm suggesting. It take a lot of concentration and some method for a real pilot to scan the sky for boogeys. It's not an instantaneous dot spot.

The only drawback is that a real pilot wont loose his periferal vision like the simmer will if zooming. It's IMO a small drawback.

 

This doesn't mean actual spoting distances are ok. Just that I do like having to zoom in order to spotting plane from far distances.

Maybe a 'fisheye' effect could be implemented, where only the middle of the screen is zoomed and the rest normal.