Head position and aiming

[Birdman]

I stumbled on this thread:

 

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/20832-setting-bos-cockpit-view-head-tracking-users/

 

And it got me wondering, were gunsight designed to be aligned with the pilot or did he have to adjust his head position before shooting?

 

I remember in the old IL2 the default views on German fighters wasn't aligned with the sight.

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

I heard it was set up so one eye would look down the sight, while the other looked past it.

 

Like how you use a red dot scope.

[Finkeren]

If you have ever sat in a WW2 era fighter cockpit, you would quickly realize, that there is not a whole lot of space to shift position. If the gun sight is in front of the windscreen it is aligned with your face, because you can’t really raise your head much, if at all. To align with the gunsight you really wouldn’t have to move your head more than a handful of cm in any direction.

 

As sim pilots we are used to the windscreen taking up a sizable portion of the screen in from of us, but that is because the cockpit is so tiny, that your eyes are really quite close to it. In reality the windscreen on just about any fighter is really tiny, and if you are looking through it, you are also looking through the gunsight, looking “around” the gunsight is actually quite awkward in most cockpits, because there is so little space.

 

In the old IL-2 game there was a special head position for the “off center” German sights for the very simple reason, that the original IL-2 didn’t support 6 degrees of freedom in head movement, thus it had to have 2 positions for the German pits, one which was centered with good view of the instruments and one which was aligned with the gunsight but had some gauges obscured. In reality the shift between those two positions corresponds to just a few cm of head movement, not really what you’d call “shifting position”.

[Birdman]

Thanks for your answers guys. The thread I linked got me wondering if the always aligned with the sight default view was a gameplay compromise (for people not using head track) or if it was like that in real planes.

[216th_Jordan]

In reality the shift between those two positions corresponds to just a few cm of head movement, not really what you’d call “shifting position”.

I think IRL you don't even have to shift because your right eye is already quite well aligned with the gunsight. When I first tried VR in the soviet planes I was overwhelmed by how bad the gunsight design was: It was so small that with both eyes you just saw the sides of the reticle and a bit higher intensity on where they merged in the middle. In a 109 however the distortion wasn't there as I was only looking through the right eye at it. I seriously don't know why this wasn't adapted on many more planes..

Thanks for your answers guys. The thread I linked got me wondering if the always aligned with the sight default view was a gameplay compromise (for people not using head track) or if it was like that in real planes.

The probelm is that in a game on a 2D screen you look from one eye all the time, you're a cyclops essentially, hence there needs to be a compromise so your one eye is placed in the middle of the cockpit.

[Finkeren]

I think IRL you don't even have to shift because your right eye is already quite well aligned with the gunsight. When I first tried VR in the soviet planes I was overwhelmed by how bad the gunsight design was: It was so small that with both eyes you just saw the sides of the reticle and a bit higher intensity on where they merged in the middle. In a 109 however the distortion wasn't there as I was only looking through the right eye at it. I seriously don't know why this wasn't adapted on many more planes..

 

Probably because IRL shifting your head just slightly to the side to get a proper one-eyed view of the reticle is so easy and intuitive, that you really don't think about it. In VR, regardless how "natural" it all feels, it's still something you actually think about and therefore it seems annoying.

[216th_Jordan]

Probably because IRL shifting your head just slightly to the side to get a proper one-eyed view of the reticle is so easy and intuitive, that you really don't think about it. In VR, regardless how "natural" it all feels, it's still something you actually think about and therefore it seems annoying.

Now I sent my VR device back and can't remember completely but I don't think I needed to lean at all, the right eye was constantly aligned. Do you use VR? Again I can't be sure about my memory so I trust your words when you say it isnt.

[Finkeren]

Now I sent my VR device back and can't remember completely but I don't think I needed to lean at all, the right eye was constantly aligned. Do you use VR? Again I can't be sure about my memory so I trust your words when you say it isnt.

 

I have tried VR, don't use it myself (I just can't stand the thought of actually having to strain my neck to look over my shoulder all the time) I just know that everything we do with any kind of head tracking requires more concentration and awareness than doing the exact same head movements IRL.

[216th_Jordan]

I have tried VR, don't use it myself (I just can't stand the thought of actually having to strain my neck to look over my shoulder all the time) I just know that everything we do with any kind of head tracking requires more concentration and awareness than doing the exact same head movements IRL.

Ah, got you now!

[=EXPEND=Tripwire]

I'm at a loss as to why it took more effort for you in VR?

 

Alignment of the gunsight is second nature - just like in real life. You move your head in VR exactly as you would IRL. 1:1

 

What headset model did you try on?

 

 

For those unaware, the smaller Russian and German gunsights are used with one eye. Conveniently the German ones are offset in most fighters. Centre mounted side you need to pick an eye to align the sight with.

 

The exception to this is the Spitfire. You can use both eyes at the same time as the sight is bigger.

 

Interpolation of the gunsight in your eyes in all cases works remarkably well and for those that have used a red dot or holographic sight the experience is very similar.

[dburne]

I'm at a loss as to why it took more effort for you in VR?

 

Alignment of the gunsight is second nature - just like in real life. You move your head in VR exactly as you would IRL. 1:1

 

 

Agreed, seems very natural for me.

[Siegfried]

I tryed the VR in my Oculus and I can understand very well the not centered gunsights of german fighters now. But I have a new issue now... I have less vision in my right eye, I had troubles to aim in my military service long yeras ago. I understand that german pilots were chosen with a good vision in both eyes, but for virtual pilots is noy the case. I need an option for change the gunsight to the left side now... 

[Nibbio]

I tryed the VR in my Oculus and I can understand very well the not centered gunsights of german fighters now. But I have a new issue now... I have less vision in my right eye, I had troubles to aim in my military service long yeras ago. I understand that german pilots were chosen with a good vision in both eyes, but for virtual pilots is noy the case. I need an option for change the gunsight to the left side now... 

 

I hear you, same problem here. My right eye has become almost worthless. On German fighters I just move my head laterally a bit to the left, hit recenter, move back to my natural position and voila my left eye is aligned with the gunsight.

Of course some lateral neck flexibility is useful...

 

https://youtu.be/VKP7_huBOLY?t=84

Edited December 14, 2017 by Nibbio

[Lensman]

Using VR was a revelation, the gunsight in a 109 suddenly made perfect sense. The default position is slightly head left so I reset the position with my head slightly to the right and bingo it's centered.

[dburne]

Using VR was a revelation, the gunsight in a 109 suddenly made perfect sense. The default position is slightly head left so I reset the position with my head slightly to the right and bingo it's centered.

 

That is basically what I do when I climb into my Yak-1 for the first mission of the day.

[Siegfried]

Yeah, but the realism gods claims a realistic position of the pilot in VR. The not centered sight of german planes issue was here for long years in 2d screens and resolved by the VR, but now a new issue appear for some people like me. I am a sad panda now.

[mrvile]

I have tried VR, don't use it myself (I just can't stand the thought of actually having to strain my neck to look over my shoulder all the time) I just know that everything we do with any kind of head tracking requires more concentration and awareness than doing the exact same head movements IRL.

 

With TrackIR style head tracking, I always had to concentrate very hard to keep my head still while lining up shots. I ended up just binding a snap-view to a zoomed in, centered-on-the-reticle view which locks the view while I aim. In VR, however, the 1:1 tracking and stereoscopic vision provide a much more realistic feeling when looking into the gun sight and things line up quite naturally.

 

That being said, the consequence of 1:1 tracking is that you need to actually look over your shoulder constantly, which is rough on the neck. I really took for granted how comfortable TrackIR is to use. In VR, having to move around like that is quite engaging and immersive though - it's what real pilots have to do.

[dburne]

 

 

That being said, the consequence of 1:1 tracking is that you need to actually look over your shoulder constantly, which is rough on the neck. I really took for granted how comfortable TrackIR is to use. In VR, having to move around like that is quite engaging and immersive though - it's what real pilots have to do.

 

Yeah, my old neck sometimes will make all kinds of cracks and pops when I am twisting and turning it around to try and see closer to my six. 

Hoping someday it does not get stuck there lol.

[Nibbio]

Yeah, but the realism gods claims a realistic position of the pilot in VR. The not centered sight of german planes issue was here for long years in 2d screens and resolved by the VR, but now a new issue appear for some people like me. I am a sad panda now.

 

Siegfried did you try what I suggested in my post above?

[Flynco]

If you have ever sat in a WW2 era fighter cockpit, you would quickly realize, that there is not a whole lot of space to shift position. If the gun sight is in front of the windscreen it is aligned with your face, because you can’t really raise your head much, if at all. To align with the gunsight you really wouldn’t have to move your head more than a handful of cm in any direction.

As sim pilots we are used to the windscreen taking up a sizable portion of the screen in from of us, but that is because the cockpit is so tiny, that your eyes are really quite close to it. In reality the windscreen on just about any fighter is really tiny, and if you are looking through it, you are also looking through the gunsight, looking “around” the gunsight is actually quite awkward in most cockpits, because there is so little space.

In the old IL-2 game there was a special head position for the “off center” German sights for the very simple reason, that the original IL-2 didn’t support 6 degrees of freedom in head movement, thus it had to have 2 positions for the German pits, one which was centered with good view of the instruments and one which was aligned with the gunsight but had some gauges obscured. In reality the shift between those two positions corresponds to just a few cm of head movement, not really what you’d call “shifting position”.

+100

[A-E-Hartmann]

I stumbled on this thread:

 

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/20832-setting-bos-cockpit-view-head-tracking-users/

 

And it got me wondering, were gunsight designed to be aligned with the pilot or did he have to adjust his head position before shooting?

 

I remember in the old IL2 the default views on German fighters wasn't aligned with the sight.

In the photo we notice the alignment of the viewfinder on the right eye of the pilot.

[Tomsk]

I tryed the VR in my Oculus and I can understand very well the not centered gunsights of german fighters now. But I have a new issue now... I have less vision in my right eye, I had troubles to aim in my military service long yeras ago. I understand that german pilots were chosen with a good vision in both eyes, but for virtual pilots is noy the case. I need an option for change the gunsight to the left side now... 

 

If you are in VR you'll sort of notice that there seem to be two different images of the gunsight next to each other. You can't see both of them at once, but if you shift your head around you'll see one sight, keep moving right and it'll disappear, move right some more and another sight will appear. One of those images is projecting the sight into your right eye, and the other is projecting into your left. You can close each eye in turn to see which eye it's projecting into. You can change the default head position (there are keys to do it) so that you'll naturally look at the gunsight with your left eye, and not your right.

 

I actually shoot with both eyes open (much like a reflex sight on a rifle, since that's basically what it is) but usually with the image projected into my right eye.

 

With TrackIR style head tracking, I always had to concentrate very hard to keep my head still while lining up shots. I ended up just binding a snap-view to a zoomed in, centered-on-the-reticle view which locks the view while I aim. In VR, however, the 1:1 tracking and stereoscopic vision provide a much more realistic feeling when looking into the gun sight and things line up quite naturally.

 

That being said, the consequence of 1:1 tracking is that you need to actually look over your shoulder constantly, which is rough on the neck. I really took for granted how comfortable TrackIR is to use. In VR, having to move around like that is quite engaging and immersive though - it's what real pilots have to do.

 

Agree 100%, aligning the sight is vastly more natural in VR. With TrackIR I found it a real fight to get my head where I wanted it for the sight, and even took to removing the translation because I fought with it so much. Not so in VR, totally natural just move your head. Actually I find exactly the same with things like birdcage cockpits: hated them with TrackIR, total pain when an enemy got in the wrong spot and you lost visual. Not so with VR, just move my head around a little to look round the obstruction, totally natural.

 

The downside of course is exactly as you say: it's a lot more work for the neck, personally I thoroughly recommend a swivel chair :-)

Edited December 15, 2017 by Tomsk

[Siegfried]

Siegfried did you try what I suggested in my post above?

 

Yeah, since many years ago. I know how to move my head, recenter and all. I know that dev will never make an option for change the sight in the left side because it cost time and money and is unhistorical anyway. I have not all vision blind in the right eye, I have only blur vision and I can aim enough.

 

My intention was only for speak about a new issue for some people with the VR