On the topic of Thunderbolts

[Poochnboo]

Ah.....gotcha. Yep, that's Bob Johnson, for sure. Met him way back in 1969 at an air show in new york

 

[Poochnboo]

Glad to see all the love for the big jug, by the way. I'm on the edge of my seat, waiting for it. I don't think any combat sim has done it justice, yet. This just may be the one!

[DSR_A-24]

On 3/11/2018 at 12:47 AM, Poochnboo said:

Glad to see all the love for the big jug, by the way. I'm on the edge of my seat, waiting for it. I don't think any combat sim has done it justice, yet. This just may be the one!

 

Honestly any flight model that isn't modern isn't even worth looking at IMO. You may even argue BoX's P-47 won't do justice as DCS's P-47 is expected to be much better. That's if its ever completed, lol. What's nice is we are finally going to get a P-47 in a proper combat simulator. So the weaponry and damage model will be up to par with the FM.

[SJ_Butcher]

Which is the model we are going to receive in the game?

[DSR_A-24]

5 hours ago, SJ_Butcher said:

Which is the model we are going to receive in the game?

I'd imagine a D-28 which would be the most prevalent block. However lets hope for the P-47D-30 as it had dive flaps and aileron improvements to reduce vibration at high speeds. I doubt the latter will even be modeled in game, but I'd love to see dive flaps.

You can see them just behind the landing gear bays.

[Legioneod]

Some intersting notes about it's role rate and dive characteristics

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/p-47/p-47c-tactical-trials.html

 

e. The rate of aileron roll is the best found in any type of American fighter.

 

(a) It had a superior rate of aileron roll at all speeds, and especially at high speed to

      all American fighter contemporary types, none could follow it in a fast reverse turn.

 

 

 

 

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/p-47/p-47c-afdu.html

 

24.     Dive – The P-47 is able to out-dive the Spitfire quite easily.

 

16.            The P-47C dives very fast. Its initial acceleration is good an it quickly reaches its limiting figures (520 m.p.h., I.A.S. at 10,000 feet, 450 m.p.h. at 20,000 feet). At these speeds the recovery needs several thousand feet and can only be effected by careful use of the trimming tab. There is no tendency to recover fiercely from the dive, but a large amount of left trim is required on the rudder to hold the aircraft straight.

 

 

Interesting notes on the engine performance test with 44-1 fuel.

 

Preliminary tests were run to clear the airplane for performance with higher powers with and without water injection. Detonation equipment was installed to determine if any flight condition became marginal as to detonation, cooling or improper operation of auxiliary parts. No detonation was observed in level flight up to 65.0" Hg. without water and 70.0" with water. No detonation was observed in climb up to 65" Hg. without water. Detonation occurred at 65.0" with water in climb but was remedied by using a No. 18 water jet. Cylinder head and carburetor air temperatures remained below the limits in level flight. Excessive cylinder head and carburetor air temperatures were encountered in climbs, limiting the duration of any climb to a point where limits are reached.

       The airplane and engine handled well at all altitudes at the higher powers. At 70.0" Hg., water injection, a maximum speed of 444 MPH was obtained at 23,200 feet. At 65.0" Hg., with water a high speed of 439 MPH at 25,200 feet and a maximum rate of climb of 3260 ft/min. at 10,000 feet were obtained. At 65.0" Hg., without water a high speed of 430 MPH at 25,400 feet and a maximum rate of climb of 2850 ft/min. at 12,000 feet were obtained. At 56.0" Hg. without water a high speed of 418 MPH at 29,600 feet and a maximum rate of climb of 2330 ft/min. at 12,000 feet were obtained. At 52.0" Hg. without water a high speed of 412 MPH at 31,400 feet and a maximum rate of climb of 2030 ft/min. at 12,000 feet were obtained.

 

Some more interesting stuff about the Jug.

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/p-47/p-47.html

 

Interesting site on the 56th FG and alot of combat reports

http://www.56thfightergroup.co.uk/reports.htm

 

Fw-190 vs P-47

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/p-47/P-47_versus_FW-190.pdf

 

Interesting in the fact that above 250mph and 10k feet the P-47 outturned the 190 but below this the 190 performed better. The report conclusion that engaging the 190 at low alt was fine but pilot needed to be careful of the 190s performance at lower speeds compared to the Jug.

 

As long as we keep the Jugs energy up I think we will be ok against most fighters as long as we stay smart and don't make any mistakes.

 

Edited March 26, 2018 by Legioneod

[Legioneod]

How will boosting work with the P-47 in-game, and how will the game handle boosting with water injection vs without water injection?

P-47s engines were very robust and were often souped up during the war, will we see this in-game or just get the run of the mill engine?

 

P-47s had water injection that last around 11-15  minutes and was supposed to be used 5 min at a time, will the WEP recharge after each five minutes until the water injection is used up, or will the time be combined together?

 

What will our options be when it comes to boosting and power? Will we be stuck with the standard 52" MAP or will we be able to push it to 65" or even 70" MAP?

 

The P&W R-2800 will be one of the most powerful engine in-game and one of (if not the most) robust. I think that having a very strict engine limitation like with the P-40 or P-39 will do the P-47 an injustice and be very unrealistic.

 

 

(I'm not suggesting that the Jug should be an uber aircraft but it should be represented accurately , including it's engine durability and the Jugs ability to take a beating and survive.

Edited March 28, 2018 by Legioneod

[Gambit21]

Pilots boosted the crap out of that thing and kept flying...I expect to see this represented in the sim.

[Legioneod]

44 minutes ago, Gambit21 said:

Pilots boosted the crap out of that thing and kept flying...I expect to see this represented in the sim.

I hope so, it's a very durable engine irl and can withstand a ton of stuff. I read they tested at wep for over 72 hours (I think, need to check) and the thing was still running.

[BlitzPig_EL]

After the boost time is exceeded the engine will seize, because manual says so.

 

Be sure.

[Legioneod]

2 hours ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

After the boost time is exceeded the engine will seize, because manual says so.

 

Be sure.

No it wont. But I'm sure that's how it's gonna be in-game unfortunately. (Not sure if you are being sarcastic, sorry if I seem defensive. Not trying to start an argument)

 

It is unfortunate the way this game models engines and engine damage, hopefully we will see an upgrade someday to a more realistic model.

 

I know I'm gonna have to lower my standards or I'm gonna be disappointed. Still can't wait to fly it though.

Edited March 29, 2018 by Legioneod

[PainGod85]

Yes, the R-2800 should be a very durable design. P&W engineers were pretty much dying from laughter when they had their engines factory tested at higher boost and longer duration than the USAAF mandated.

 

http://www.enginehistory.org/Biography/FrankWalkerWeb1.pdf

 

100 hours of continuous war emergency power with water injection.

150" boost on a C series engine.

Edited March 29, 2018 by PainGod85

[Royal_Flight]

6 hours ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

After the boost time is exceeded the engine will seize, because manual says so.

 

Be sure.

 

Given how BoX has handled the P-40 and P-39, I'd say you're right.

If the whole engine limits system is finally overhauled then the P-47 might be alright. 

[BlitzPig_EL]

Pardon my sarcasm, but you know that's how it will be.

 

I don't have a late P47 manual at hand, anyone know what the pilot's manual says exactly on the engine limits vs. time?

[Poochnboo]

"I know I'm gonna have to lower my standards or I'm gonna be disappointed. Still can't wait to fly it though."

  Ya' know, that's kind of the way I look at all of this, too. I know it's not going to be the way it was in real life. I guess it just can't. But close, would be nice. As long as the plane isn't a total piece of crap in the game. We're going to have to fly it smart, though. It's a thinking man's airplane. It's no Spitfire, where you jump in behind someone and lock onto his tail. You'll have to take a quick shot at someone and then break off as he tries to turn into you. Dive to gain speed and widen the distance between the two of you and then come back and try it again. But if your shooting is good, he may not get a chance to turn at all! Not with those 8 fifties deskinning his airplane. 

 

[Legioneod]

28 minutes ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

Pardon my sarcasm, but you know that's how it will be.

 

I don't have a late P47 manual at hand, anyone know what the pilot's manual says exactly on the engine limits vs. time?

 

52" at 2700 rpm for 15 min. That's what I read in the manual. From pilot account they boosted the engine even more in combat and didn't limit themselves to what the manual said.

 

Manual also said water injection lasted for about 15 min.

Edited March 30, 2018 by Legioneod

[=362nd_FS=RoflSeal]

2500hp for 5min, 2000hp 15min, 1600hp continuous

Edited March 30, 2018 by RoflSeal

[DSR_A-24]

38 minutes ago, RoflSeal said:

 

2500hp for 5min, 2000hp 15min, 1600hp continuous

All the WEP through out the P-47s service during WW2.

2300hp 5 minutes

2535-2600hp 5 minutes
2800hp 5 minutes

 

The P-47 also had 10-15 minutes of water injection. Despite being the exact same engine for all power settings I wonder if it will die in 5 minutes regardless of any WEP setting. The extra 10 minutes of water was just for show btw.
 

 

 

On 3/26/2018 at 3:24 AM, Legioneod said:

-snip-

 

Interesting in the fact that above 250mph and 10k feet the P-47 outturned the 190 but below this the 190 performed better. The report conclusion that engaging the 190 at low alt was fine but pilot needed to be careful of the 190s performance at lower speeds compared to the Jug.

 

As long as we keep the Jugs energy up I think we will be ok against most fighters as long as we stay smart and don't make any mistakes.

 

The top speeds you're listing of the P-47 are with wingracks ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°). If you apply the same speed differences of 65 and 70 to a clean P-47 you get a much faster plane.

 

Considering the current state of the P-47 and P-39, I wouldn't be surprised if the P-47 comes out as a plane that bleeds all of its energy in the smallest maneuver.

Edited March 30, 2018 by DSR_T-888

[Legioneod]

2 minutes ago, DSR_T-888 said:

All the WEP through out the P-47s service during WW2.

2300hp 5 minutes

2535-2600hp 5 minutes
2800hp 5 minutes

 

The P-47 also had 10-15 minutes of water injection. Despite being the exact same engine for all power settings I wonder if it will die in 5 minutes regardless of any WEP setting. The extra 10 minutes of water was just for show btw.
 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

 

The top speeds you're listing of the P-47 are with wingracks ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

All the WEP through out the P-47s service during WW2.

2300hp 5 minutes

2535-2600hp 5 minutes
2800hp 5 minutes

 

The P-47 also had 10-15 minutes of water injection. Despite being the exact same engine for all power settings I wonder if it will die in 5 minutes regardless of any WEP setting. The extra 10 minutes of water was just for show btw.
 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

 

The top speeds you're listing of the P-47 are with wingracks ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

 

Wasn't listing the top speeds, just quoting what the report said about combat with the 190. I would hope that the P-47 could go faster than 250 lol

[=362nd_FS=RoflSeal]

2300hp corresponds to 56"Hg.

64"Hg corresponds to 2500hp

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/p-47/P-47_Water-Injection_3feb44.pdf

Edited March 30, 2018 by RoflSeal

[DSR_A-24]

5 minutes ago, Legioneod said:

 

Wasn't listing the top speeds, just quoting what the report said about combat with the 190. I would hope that the P-47 could go faster than 250 lol

I accidently posted my comment early

Ah, you highlighted them :P. I'm just saying the P-47 is faster than whats highlighted without wingracks. The P-47 will be faster than or as fast as the legacy German fighters at SL.
 

[Legioneod]

16 minutes ago, DSR_T-888 said:

-snip-

 

Considering the current state of the P-47 and P-39, I wouldn't be surprised if the P-47 comes out as a plane that bleeds all of its energy in the smallest maneuver.

 

Unfortunately I think you're right. It should be able to keep some energy in the vertical though, it had an excellent zoom climb, even from level flight it could zoom well.

[Gambit21]

1 hour ago, Legioneod said:

 

52" at 2700 rpm for 15 min. That's what I read in the manual. From pilot account they boosted the engine even more in combat and didn't limit themselves to what the manual said.

 

Manual also said water injection lasted for about 15 min.

 

I was just listening to my phone interview with Don Bryan, 352nd.

I was looking for his reference about his special, 'suped up" P-47 because I couldn't remember the specifics.

I haven't come across that story yet, but...

 

He said of the Jug "There wasn't a better ground attack aircraft until the A-10 came along, but it wasn't worth a darn down low against 109's and 190's"

I'd forgotten that he said that...I might post the audio file of that interview.

I also have one with Alden Rigby, and James Wood.

[Mitthrawnuruodo]

Remember that the P-47 won't be the only aircraft in Bodenplatte to depend on a boost system. If the P-47 is crippled, so will almost every other aircraft. Unlike BoS, BoM, and BoK, both factions will be heavily affected by timers.

 

Therefore, I think it's reasonable to expect that engine limits will be reexamined for Bodenplatte. Otherwise, most late-war aircraft just won't function properly.

[[_FLAPS_]Grim]

I think the Jug will be fine even without boost. 

I read an Interview with a Jug ace, an he never had to use it in battle. He only turned it on on the way home from time to time to see If it is still working. 

[=362nd_FS=RoflSeal]

10 hours ago, Mitthrawnuruodo said:

Remember that the P-47 won't be the only aircraft in Bodenplatte to depend on a boost system. If the P-47 is crippled, so will almost every other aircraft. Unlike BoS, BoM, and BoK, both factions will be heavily affected by timers.

 

Therefore, I think it's reasonable to expect that engine limits will be reexamined for Bodenplatte. Otherwise, most late-war aircraft just won't function properly.

 

It will effect the Germans less since the MW50 rated power lasted 10 minutes and combat power was still 30 minutes, both twice as much as the US values. British had 5 minute WEP and 1 hour combat power values, but as we see, the devs gave them 3 minutes and 30 minutes for some reason.

[rolikiraly]

1 hour ago, RoflSeal said:

 

It will effect the Germans less since the MW50 rated power lasted 10 minutes and combat power was still 30 minutes, both twice as much as the US values. British had 5 minute WEP and 1 hour combat power values, but as we see, the devs gave them 3 minutes and 30 minutes for some reason.

 

Which British aircraft has those 30 and 3 min limits? Can't seem to find one like that in the official specifications.

[=362nd_FS=RoflSeal]

21 minutes ago, rolikiraly said:

 

Which British aircraft has those 30 and 3 min limits? Can't seem to find one like that in the official specifications.

Spitfire Mk Vb

9lbs@2850rpm is 30mins, 16lbs@3000rpm is 3 minutes when aircraft manual gives 1hr and 5 min respectively

Ingame spec says 16lbs@3000rpm is 5 minutes, but that is a lie.

Edited March 30, 2018 by RoflSeal

[rolikiraly]

Is that so? With both engine variants? That's good to know 

Edited March 30, 2018 by rolikiraly

[Legioneod]

@Grim

That was Robert Johnson, he said he never needed it because of the modifications he had done to his Jug and because he ran at higher MAP anyways.

12 hours ago, RoflSeal said:

 

It will effect the Germans less since the MW50 rated power lasted 10 minutes and combat power was still 30 minutes, both twice as much as the US values. British had 5 minute WEP and 1 hour combat power values, but as we see, the devs gave them 3 minutes and 30 minutes for some reason.

P-47 had WEP for 15 mins. It was only to be used 5 min at a time with a pause in between uses.

Edited March 31, 2018 by Legioneod

[Voidhunger]

Just a little question. P-47 has turbosupercharger behind the cockpit in the fuselage. Does that mean that the (part of the) engine is more vulberable to enemy fire from behind?  is it possible for the engine to run with damaged superturbocharger?

 

[=362nd_FS=RoflSeal]

25 minutes ago, Voidhunger said:

Just a little question. P-47 has turbosupercharger behind the cockpit in the fuselage. Does that mean that the (part of the) engine is more vulberable to enemy fire from behind?  is it possible for the engine to run with damaged superturbocharger?

 

You should still be able to run, a direct hit that destroys the turbo should make you lose manifold pressure. The engine driven supercharger can maintain 52" (military power) up to 7,000 ft. A hit in the piping should make you lose some pressure which can be compensated by increase turbo RPM to the maximum.

Edited August 27, 2018 by RoflSeal

[Legioneod]

44 minutes ago, Voidhunger said:

Just a little question. P-47 has turbosupercharger behind the cockpit in the fuselage. Does that mean that the (part of the) engine is more vulberable to enemy fire from behind?  is it possible for the engine to run with damaged superturbocharger?

 

Yes you can still run with a damaged turbo, from what the manual states you don't need the turbo much at all below 12kft iirc. Hits to the ductwork would decrease performance slightly but you could still run the turbo.

 

Think of the Turbo as an altitude throttle, you don't need it at all at lower altitudes and you can still run almost full performance below 10-12kft.

 

Another thing you'll have t worry about is damage of the Turbo due to improper operation, if you move the throttles in the wrong order or have too much rpm, you can cause many problem for the Turbo.

[Voidhunger]

Ok thanks guys

[D3adCZE]

On 3/30/2018 at 2:41 PM, RoflSeal said:

 

It will effect the Germans less since the MW50 rated power lasted 10 minutes and combat power was still 30 minutes, both twice as much as the US values. British had 5 minute WEP and 1 hour combat power values, but as we see, the devs gave them 3 minutes and 30 minutes for some reason.

Germans had 3x 10 minutes of MW50 with ~4 minute cooldown period between the usages. 

[Bremspropeller]

6 hours ago, Legioneod said:

is it possible for the engine to run with damaged superturbocharger?

 

Depends on what you mean by "damaged". If there's physical damage to the compressor or turbine-section, you can prepare to kiss your little butt goodbye. That thing rotates at ridiculous RPMs and if anything fails - well, you'll have more than a just thought crossing your mind...

 

On 3/26/2018 at 9:24 AM, Legioneod said:

Fw-190 vs P-47

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/p-47/P-47_versus_FW-190.pdf

 

Interesting in the fact that above 250mph and 10k feet the P-47 outturned the 190 but below this the 190 performed better. The report conclusion that engaging the 190 at low alt was fine but pilot needed to be careful of the 190s performance at lower speeds compared to the Jug.

 

As long as we keep the Jugs energy up I think we will be ok against most fighters as long as we stay smart and don't make any mistakes.

 

What kind of ata settings were used on the 190? Did it operate on emergency boost anyway?

That report reminds of of the Russians who would claim an airplane sucks, but then confessing about not using boost, while their own airplane did.

 

Sorry to say, but neither the USN (F6F and F4U vs 190), nor this USAAF test do really astonish me with any kind of objectivity.

The Brits were a bit more honest and stated boost and rpm.

 

Bad rear view - well, the headroom in a 190 is nothing to write home about, but poor rear-view compared to a razorback Jug? Give me a break.

The stick-vibrations seem to be an artifact of the banged-up airframe. It's also the only report to mention any kind of excessive nose-heavyness.

 

The report also mentions a less than optimal suitability for strafing or diving-attacks in the Jug.

That's a statement essentially disproven by the airplane's later career.

 

I'd take the whole report with a grain of salt. Or two.

Edited August 27, 2018 by Bremspropeller

[Legioneod]

14 minutes ago, Bremspropeller said:

 

Depends on what you mean by "damaged". If there's physical damage to the compressor or turbine-section, you can prepare to kiss your little butt goodbye. That thing rotates at ridiculous RPMs and if anything fails - well, you'll have more than a just thought crossing your mind...

 

The report also mentions a less than optimal suitability for strafing or diving-attacks in the Jug.

That's a statement essentially disproven by the airplane's later career.

A damaged turbo wont be tearing your plane apart, it will hurt it sure but don't expect to just suddenly go flying apart. Plenty of P-47s had damaged Turbos or worse and made it back safely.

 

The strafing part was true, plenty of P-47 pilots commented on how it was difficult to see over the nose when strafing or diving attack. Just because they used it in that way doesnt mean it wasn't difficult or less than ideal.

 

In combat a P-47 has little trouble sticking with a 190 in a turn, this is verified by P-47 pilots, they said they had little trouble with FwA8, D9 may be another story.

 

The FW wasnt performing at it's best I'm sure but that doesnt negate the fact of what happened in actual combat, many first hand accounts are quite similar to the test results.

 

[Bremspropeller]

The problem with pilots stating they had little problems turning with X, Y or Z is that they have no idea who they met and how hard they were pushing the plane.

Also, we tend to hear more from pilots who were successful, rather than pilots who bought the farm or who were just outmaneuvered by the other guy.

How'd they know they had engaged an A-8?

 

Keep in mind the 47 outturning the 190 happens at the altitude where the 190 has it's supercharger is just about to switch from LO to HI.

1000-2000ft above, the story will be a lot more even between the two.

 

That's the trouble with half-arsed reports: They leave out important information.

To me, the report goes a lot into the direction of asserting confidence in a new P-47 pilot who might be wondering if he can prevail with such a big bird, rather than give a thorough presentation of both airplanes' respective strengths and weaknesses.

[Legioneod]

20 minutes ago, Bremspropeller said:

The problem with pilots stating they had little problems turning with X, Y or Z is that they have no idea who they met and how hard they were pushing the plane.

Also, we tend to hear more from pilots who were successful, rather than pilots who bought the farm or who were just outmaneuvered by the other guy.

How'd they know they had engaged an A-8?

 

Keep in mind the 47 outturning the 190 happens at the altitude where the 190 has it's supercharger is just about to switch from LO to HI.

1000-2000ft above, the story will be a lot more even between the two.

 

That's the trouble with half-arsed reports: They leave out important information.

To me, the report goes a lot into the direction of asserting confidence in a new P-47 pilot who might be wondering if he can prevail with such a big bird, rather than give a thorough presentation of both airplanes' respective strengths and weaknesses.

True, but there is no denying that the P-47 was a good fighter and proved itself in combat. The 56th is a testament to it's fighting capabilities.

Also, pilots knew what they were fighting, they studied and knew what types they might encounter, also by mid-late 44 most if not all 190s were A8 or later.

Edited August 27, 2018 by Legioneod

[Bremspropeller]

I agree, the P-47 is a great bird and I really am looking forward to flying it.

 

They didn't know about specific types - they had no idea an A-8 existed (they knew about a "new" Anton when something interesting happened, but they generally had no idea about the building-blocks or subtypes). Also, the A-8s could have been Sturmböcke or (most likely) flown by green pilots.

The same is true for axis aces, claming they had a field day with a specific enemy type. Chances are, they met a pilot who was green.