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Gyro gunsights

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Hi All, I was wondering that with all the new aircraft we can expect with "Bodenplatte" will we get to play with the Gyro gunsights,  to turn us average pilots into crack shots ?   I have read that the Spitfire MK 1X, P47

 

P51 and the Fw 190 did experiment with the sights during the latter part of the war.

 

 

Cheers :salute:

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I'm sure the P-51 and D9 will have gyro sights. I doubt the P-47 will have one since we are getting a P-47 D, the only P-47 D that had gyros sights from my understanding is the D-40.

 

My question is how will gyro sights work with the custom convergence? Since irl the gyro was set to a standard convergence at least I think it was.

 

Then again it may not even matter since the gyro just calculates deflection, I guess all you'd have to do is set your gyro range to your convergence range that way you get the best shot placement.

Edited by Legioneod

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I'm sure the P-51 and D9 will have gyro sights. I doubt the P-47 will have one since we are getting a P-47 D, the only P-47 D that had gyros sights from my understanding is the D-40.

 

My question is how will gyro sights work with the custom convergence? Since irl the gyro was set to a standard convergence at least I think it was.

My guess is that if we get a gyro sight as a mod and you select it, it would lock you to that convergence. 

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My guess is that if we get a gyro sight as a mod and you select it, it would lock you to that convergence. 

It might, but the gyro can range can be set to something other than your convergence so it may not even be a problem. Just gotta set your gyro and convergence to the same range that way you get most rounds on target. Just set range and wingspan and then leave it be, that way you know exactly what range to engage at.

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So a gyro gunsight doesn't care about convergence.  It simply depresses according to G being pulled by the SHOOTING aircraft. Its assumption is you are saddled up so your G =Bandits G and it says "Here is your solution".  

Vertical convergence is a myth in WWII fighters (F-15C has a 2 degree up cant on its gun).  They had distance where the bullets flew through the zero sight line, and then they had dispersion....study the graph below. The vertical variance in the guns is due to where they are mounted in the wing (since the wingtips tend to be higher than wing root).

 

Since the point at which the guns horizontally converge can be set by the pilot, that is simply pilot controlled.  The sight will give you a G-biased guns solution based upon your own G. 

 

 

P-47_gun_harmonization_-_two_types.jpg

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I'm sure the P-51 and D9 will have gyro sights. I doubt the P-47 will have one since we are getting a P-47 D, the only P-47 D that had gyros sights from my understanding is the D-40.

Gyro sights were pretty rare on German planes, so I'd be surprised if the EZ42 is modeled.

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Don't forget the Mark II GGS which was fitted to some late Spitfire IX, XVI and XIV's. It and the K-14 gunsight used in the P-51, P-47, etc. were related developments as I understand and so I would think that work on one would translate into work on the other fairly easily.

 

No idea if the team will have time to implement these or not but it would be interesting.

 

As I understand it, lead computing gunsights showed up in Allied planes in some quantity. Not sure about the German lead computing sights.

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So a gyro gunsight doesn't care about convergence.  It simply depresses according to G being pulled by the SHOOTING aircraft. Its assumption is you are saddled up so your G =Bandits G and it says "Here is your solution".  

 

Vertical convergence is a myth in WWII fighters (F-15C has a 2 degree up cant on its gun).  They had distance where the bullets flew through the zero sight line, and then they had dispersion....study the graph below. The vertical variance in the guns is due to where they are mounted in the wing (since the wingtips tend to be higher than wing root).

 

Since the point at which the guns horizontally converge can be set by the pilot, that is simply pilot controlled.  The sight will give you a G-biased guns solution based upon your own G. 

 

 

P-47_gun_harmonization_-_two_types.jpg

Agreed but all i meant was that in order to have the most accurate shot placement you need to set your gyro and your gun convergence to the same range.

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Agreed but all i meant was that in order to have the most accurate shot placement you need to set your gyro and your gun convergence to the same range.

 

Aye, there has to be a way to set the range on the gyro gunsight, otherwise there's no realistic way that it could offer any kind of accurate solution. Based on your own Gs, it could move the crosshairs to indicate where the bullets would be at a certain range. This range would have to entered somehow by the user (probably alongside wingspan, so the crosshairs could be adjusted to show the size the target should be if at the proper range).

 

Its not much different from how modern gunsights work... the difference is in those case the range is provided via radar instead of assumed.

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Aye, there has to be a way to set the range on the gyro gunsight, otherwise there's no realistic way that it could offer any kind of accurate solution. Based on your own Gs, it could move the crosshairs to indicate where the bullets would be at a certain range. This range would have to entered somehow by the user (probably alongside wingspan, so the crosshairs could be adjusted to show the size the target should be if at the proper range).

 

Its not much different from how modern gunsights work... the difference is in those case the range is provided via radar instead of assumed.

I'm sure it will be similar to the K-14 in DCS. The gunsight works independently of the actual gun convergence. The only reason you need to adjust the range on the gunsight is to get the proper deflection. You really wouldn't have time to adjust it in combat so all you would do is set the range when you take off and leave it, only engage when the aircraft is in the range that you set, that way you get proper deflection. (It's best to set your gun convergence and gunsight range to the same thing but it isnt required.)

 

a711aea1c4dd7acfd8232754fd38a3d6.jpg

The dial on the left is to adjust the range (adjusted with the throttle) and the wingspan adjustment is on the top which was usually set to the expected target wingspan (109 or 190.)

 

The only thing players would need to be aware of is that the K-14 and gun convergence in the menu are different measurements.

 

The gyro range is in feet but the gun convergence is in yds or meters i'm not sure which one. The K-14 has a max range of 1000ft or is it 2400ft? (cant remember. gonna have to look it up) players just need to know how to convert meters/yds into feet to get the proper range on the gunsight.

 

 

Another thing is the K-14 doesn't calculate instantly, there is a few seconds delay when calculating and thats if your in steady flight, the gunsight may not be able to calculate if your constantly maneuvering so skill will still come into play in a dogfight.

Edited by Legioneod
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K14 has range and wingspan adjusters. If i remember one of those is on the P51 throttle. I forget which one as mine is mapped to my joystick in DCS. Pretty sure its the range. Pick up the DCS P51 manual on the DCS website. It covers the K14 gyro sight.

Edit

I see i was beaten to it by Legioneod

Edited by Rolling_Thunder

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A nice training video talking about the working principle behind gyro gunsights and how to operate it correctly.

 

Edited by -=PHX=-SuperEtendard
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I like the idea of having gyro gunsight for all those intersted in it. That's cool. :)

 

However i would really like to have the "normal" gunsights as option for all the fighters concerned (for instance, Navy's mk8 for the thunderbolt, L3 for lightning and N9 for the pony). I actually like the mini slip indicators on mk8 and N9 gunsights and find them handy when maneuvering.

 

I know it may sound strange to some but as for me the simple reflector sight is best and the funniest: i find there's something boring about gyro gunsights, i never liked it. I find that it ruins the fun i have when i press the red trigger...For me the fun in shooting lies in the "guesstimate" part.

 

PS I know one can use the gyro in the fixed position, but anyway it looks so big and takes too much room in the pit, that it hides instruments and is distracting...

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EZ 42s were really fitted in any number? I can find references to these regarding their planning for 252s and 162s and I am sure some were fitted to 190s or 109s, but in December '44 I would be surprised if they were terribly common.

 

Discussed in this thread: http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=11427

 

[Edited]

 

Let's have none of that.

Edited by Bearcat

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I'd actually be very surprised if the P-47D-30 didn't receive spare K-14 sights from P-51 or 47D-40 stock, TBH.

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I'd actually be very surprised if the P-47D-30 didn't receive spare K-14 sights from P-51 or 47D-40 stock, TBH.

As far as I know the D-30 never received a gyro sight. The P-47N would be the main P-47 with a gyro sight.

 

I wouldn't mind the D-30 having a gyro sight as long as it was an option in the modifications and not required. I like my P-47 to have fixed sights, I'll use the gyro in the Stang.

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I'm not sure if its the K-14 or the N-9 or one of the other sights but didn't USAAF fighters have a switchable gun piper from air to air to air to ground?

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^ The only similar thing which comes to my mind - in DCS, when switching K-14 from gyro piper to the fixed one, the latter has additional dashes displayed below central dot, intended to be used for A-G rockets delivery. Not sure about other types, though.

 

On the main topic - for comparison, both gyro sights in DCS don't really make a big difference in combat anyway. By principle, even when set correctly (which is not a trivial thing to do in itself), they still work best only when smoothly tracking a target turning at constant G for a few seconds, and that just doesn't happen all that often in either of the sims I suppose. Also the reticle glass of EZ42, being comparable in size with normal Revis, is way too small, so that pipper in gyro mode "flows out" of the glass at any moderate G turns.

 

So they might be a "nice to have" things in BoBP, but nothing to loose one's sleep over really.

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By principle, even when set correctly (which is not a trivial thing to do in itself)

 

Yes it is, at least if you own a throttle with twist axes (i.e. Saitek X-56). Use one to preset wingspan, another for adjusting range. Easy as pie.

 

If the gyro sights in IL-2 get implemented in the same manner, that'll be it.

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Yes it is, at least if you own a throttle with twist axes (i.e. Saitek X-56). Use one to preset wingspan, another for adjusting range. Easy as pie.

 

If the gyro sights in IL-2 get implemented in the same manner, that'll be it.

Agreed. Gyro sights are very easy to set up. My friend always has trouble with it but I never understood why. All you got to do is set wingspan and range and leave it be, or you can adjust range on the fly but it isnt very useful imo.

 

Its better to just set your sight range to the convergence range and just leave it alone, that way your not worrying about adjusting it constantly in combat.

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I doubt the P-51 wont have gyrosights.

P-47 is a different story since we aren't dealing with the 78 or 56 fight groups.

Later blocks just standardized field modifications. So if we get a D-25 or D-30 they are both capable of being upgraded with dorsal fins and K14 gunsights. Preferably D-30 because of dive recovery flaps :) The 56FG were being issued K-14 gunsights in October of 1944 and they were flying P-47D-25/28s at this time. However the 56FG didn't participate in bodenplatte.

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I'm pretty sure the D-30 already had the dorsal fin? Miight be wrong, but that's what I remember.

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Yes it is, at least if you own a throttle with twist axes (i.e. Saitek X-56). Use one to preset wingspan, another for adjusting range. Easy as pie.

 

If the gyro sights in IL-2 get implemented in the same manner, that'll be it.

 

Agreed. Gyro sights are very easy to set up. My friend always has trouble with it but I never understood why. All you got to do is set wingspan and range and leave it be, or you can adjust range on the fly but it isnt very useful imo.

 

Its better to just set your sight range to the convergence range and just leave it alone, that way your not worrying about adjusting it constantly in combat.

 

Ha! Maybe, but what if you don't have a throttle with handy rotaries (applies to... well, everything which is not a now-defunct Saitek, unfortunately), or you must track and engage targets outside of convergence range, as most pilots usually do (that's why manual and radar ranging mechanisms were added in the first place), not to mention over- and under-ranging errors also mentioned in that cool vintage film linked above :D. That's what I was getting at in my previous post.

 

The task is simple in theory, but takes some time to get fully proficient at (if ever) with limitations of most popular controllers on the market nowadays.

Edited by Art-J

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According to the eBook "Republic P-47 Thunderbolt Bubbletop" by Robert Pęczowski, available in the Apple Store (worth the reasonable price when you are waiting for your plane in a French airport) : "...In service, most of aircraft (D-30s) were retro-fitted with dorsal fillets."

 

Not all of them, however, as seen on this D-30-RE , one of the many of 395th FS destroyed or damaged on the ground by JG 53 during Bodenplatte at Metz-Frescaty (Y.34).

 

post-481-0-52874300-1512592648_thumb.jpeg

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http://www.germanluftwaffe.com/archiv/Dokumente/ABC/b/Beobachtungsgereate/EZ/EZ%2040/EZ%2040%20Visier.html

 

One of the earlier variants for the Gyro Gunsight(EZ in German), the EZ 40  tested in Me 109F in 1941.

 

Me%20109.jpg

 

Fw 190s with EZ 42

 

EZ190.jpg

EZ190-1.jpg

 

EZ 42 on Me 262 - I believe its Karl Baur himself in the cocpit.

 

ez42Me%20262.jpg

 

Some additional saved files on EZ 42 production, fitting, and operational trials by JG 300 in August 1944.

 

EZ 42 gyro gunsight manual as of August 1944, issued September 1944.

post-1271-0-74444000-1512595360_thumb.jpg

post-1271-0-00252800-1512595516_thumb.jpg

EZ42 Handbuch.pdf

Edited by VO101Kurfurst
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Been scanning the forums on gyro gunsights with respect to the forth coming P-51D-15NA.

This thread is a bit old.

 

Since then, in game, the P-47D-28 has the (Gyro) Sperry K-14A, although it didn't really come out until the D-30 block.

With that said, has anyone heard from Jason or others that the Mustang will have an option of the N-9 or K-14A...

 

I would hope so, but the K-14A didn't really come out until Jul 1944.

 

 

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21 minutes ago, AH_Hollywood said:

Been scanning the forums on gyro gunsights with respect to the forth coming P-51D-15NA.

This thread is a bit old.

 

Since then, in game, the P-47D-28 has the (Gyro) Sperry K-14A, although it didn't really come out until the D-30 block.

With that said, has anyone heard from Jason or others that the Mustang will have an option of the N-9 or K-14A...

 

I would hope so, but the K-14A didn't really come out until Jul 1944.

 

 

I'm sure it will have the K-14 due to the timeframe of Bodenplatte, same reason the P-47D-28 has it.

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I assumed they were mounted as a retrofit on the D-28. 

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3 minutes ago, thenorm said:

I assumed they were mounted as a retrofit on the D-28. 

Yep thats why we have it in-game.

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Posted (edited)
59 minutes ago, thenorm said:

I assumed they were mounted as a retrofit on the D-28. 

 

Yes, there are numerous combat reports of P-47s using them in the fall of 1944, with October 1944 being the earliest I've seen. They started being fitted at the factory at the beginning of '45.

Edited by LukeFF

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