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Gunner_Ratchenko

Introduce the option of ShVAK cannons for the PE-2 and an MG FF 20mm (or even the 20 mm MG 151/20) to the 111 and JU-88

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Type of improvement: Historical accuracy, more detailed gameplay and fairness.


Explanation of proposals: Introduce the option of ShVAK cannons for the PE-2 and an MG FF 20mm (or even the 20 mm MG 151/20) to the 111 and JU-88.


Benefits: It would make the gunner role much better and more realistic. I realise that to implement this would take both time and money, but overall the gameplay would benefit overall if more customisation options are available.

Largely I understand this game is primarily about flying, but the gunner role was integral to success and since it is in the game already- why not improve it further and make it a role people will actually want to do rather than the majority of pilots having to rely on bots.

For those who don’t see the role as something of importance, then remember that bots can’t call out targets before it’s too late. Sure they can open fire thus alarming the pilot of a threat, but they can’t say the range (I’m talking expert mode) or position, let alone the type of threat be it ground or otherwise.  

A nose mounted 20mm would work wonders on ground targets and if the ability for the gunner to switch gun positions based on my other suggestion is implemented-then this role will only become better and better.

 

Cheers

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Pe-2s never had ShVAK armament as far as I know. That's the Pe-3.

 

The He 111 H16 already has 20mm defensive armament where appropriate.

 

I don't think the Ju 88A4 ever had 20mm guns anywhere, but I'm willing to be proven wrong.

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Nah- the Pe-2Sh had them. Granted it's a prototype, but still.

 

Fair enough on the 111- I must of missed that. *edit- that seems to be only on the Kuban pack?*

 

As for the Ju's- there were so many varieties, there was even a "Junkers JU 88P-1 that was fitted with a 75mm BK 75 cannon"but here's a photo of an A4 with a 20mm. 

 

More customization options for gunner loadouts (even allow the gunner to pick) would make it far more interesting though. 

 

xatn3t.jpg

Edited by Gunner_Ratchenko

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I read up on the Ju 88 and the MG-FF in place of the bomb sight sounds kinda fun. How common was that modification?

 

I don’t think a prototype Pe-2 for testing purposes would fit this sim though.

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Yeah I mean it would no longer be a bomber as such, but it could definitely be fun. 

 

I'd say it was not so common, only later on with the A-14 was it fully realised properly. I'm guessing previously that it would have been re armed upon special request depending on the mission. Later there was also the C-6 and that was just the A4 on steroids:

 

"Offensive armaments

  • 1 x 20 mm MG FF/M cannon, nose-mounted (120 rpg)
  • 2 x 20 mm MG FF/M cannon, chin-mounted (120 rpg = 240 total)
  • 3 x 7.92 mm MG 17 machine gun (800 rpg right, 1,000 rpg left = 2,800 total)

Defensive armaments

  • 1 x 7.92 mm MG 81 machine gun, 2 x dorsal turret (1,000 rpg = 2,000 total)
  • 2 x 7.92 mm MG 81 machine gun, ventral turret (900 + 1,800 rpg = 2,700 total)

 

Payloads

  • 20 x 50 kg SC50JA"

 

They were present in Finland and I remember reading somewhere that they pulled on out of Lake Saimaa that had a 20 on the front although I can't find a source at the mo. 

 

On the PE-2, that might be true but in the interest of fairness then perhaps there is a way around that. I think that there is a realistic way of working through this by giving more customisation options for the players to equip their fighter as they see fit. This shouldn't be an issue in regards to realism because the game doesn't supply us with a commanding officer that dictates how and what we should use. It's not like the shvak weren't used either.

 

It's not like I'm suggesting the 88 PPSH hedgehog system!  :biggrin:

 

From a purely gaming perspective- it only opens up more choice. Gunners were an after thought of course and that is fair enough, but to not make the role more interesting and playable will essentially mean it'll remain redundant. 

Edited by Gunner_Ratchenko

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We cannot go down the 'They made a few protoypes' route or we will end up with things like rocket powered Yaks and armour plated 190s for ramming bombers etc :-)

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I suppose I have to agree in regards to the PE-2SH. However as far as variants go- the Pe-2MV was one of those that was produced within the 11,400 aprox created PE-2's. The Pe-2Sh was a PB-100 prototype (I got em mixed up up there :D ). Furthermore, I don't really see the choice of being able to add an interchangeable weapons choice system into the game as factually inaccurate. Surely a pilot would be able to choose whats best for the mission alongside a gunner. 

 

Prototypes - ok none of those fair enough. 

Edited by Gunner_Ratchenko

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The Ju 88C6 requires a new cockpit, crew positions and a good deal of FM tampering to account for the heavy armament. That is definitely a separate variant and not simply a loadout option.

Edited by Finkeren

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Fair enough on the 111- I must of missed that. *edit- that seems to be only on the Kuban pack?*

 

Nope, the H-6 has always had the option to carry 2 MG-FF/M cannons. 


 

 

On the PE-2, that might be true but in the interest of fairness then perhaps there is a way around that. I think that there is a realistic way of working through this by giving more customisation options for the players to equip their fighter as they see fit.

 

It's not about what's fair but what was actually used on the front being simulated.  

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The Macchi having a 20mm loadout is bad enough. Prototypes and extremely limited production aircraft can keep their place over at Gaijin.

 

Hopefully this platform continues to provide quality over quantity, supported by appropriate theaters and assets and continues to avoid going the route of "what-if" and "wunderwaffe."

Edited by Space_Ghost
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The Macchi having a 20mm loadout is bad enough. Prototypes and extremely limited production aircraft can keep their place over at Gaijin.

 

Hopefully this platform continues to provide quality over quantity, supported by appropriate theaters and assets and continues to avoid going the route of "what-if" and "wunderwaffe."

Thanks for that. 

 

I hope instead that this platform diversifies and continues to change by adding in more 20mm planes like the Macchi.  ;) Just because you don't like them, it doesn't mean they didn't exist and played a part and being as the majority of fighting in the second world war was done in Russia, the logic of not allowing one thing over the other just because of how many were produced seems odd to me. 

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Nope, the H-6 has always had the option to carry 2 MG-FF/M cannons. 

 

 

 

It's not about what's fair but what was actually used on the front being simulated.  

 

 

Interesting, you are talking about absolute war that by the end of it all involved well over 100,000 Soviet aircraft (around 21000 were shot down by the end of the war) being produced, so can you prove that a PE-2 that was loaded up with a ShVak never flew on the Stal/Mos front? I can't prove they did but its more likely they did just by looking at the ShVak production cycles. 

Edited by Gunner_Ratchenko

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Thanks for that. 

 

I hope instead that this platform diversifies and continues to change by adding in more 20mm planes like the Macchi.  ;) Just because you don't like them, it doesn't mean they didn't exist and played a part and being as the majority of fighting in the second world war was done in Russia, the logic of not allowing one thing over the other just because of how many were produced seems odd to me. 

 

Uhhhh... Prototypes barely existed and didn't play a part in combat or front line service... Hence being prototypes.  :mellow:

 

Since the majority of fighting in the Eastern Front, or in WWII as a whole, was not done in one-off prototypes, it seems entirely relevant to leave low production aircraft out of the picture and diversify the platform with things that actually saw a quantifiable level of service: Po-2s, I-153s, I-15s, Fi 156s, IAR-80/81s, Li-2s, Fw 189s, DB-3s, Hs 123s, etc.

 

There are literally dozens of aircraft that actually saw service that deserve to be modeled before prototypes, non-fielded modifications, etc.

 

Just because you like them doesn't mean anything to me either but I see that you were primarily hoping for an echo chamber of agreement.  :huh:

Edited by Space_Ghost
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Uhhhh... Prototypes barely existed and didn't play a part... Hence being prototypes.

 

Since the majority of fighting in the Eastern Front, or in WWII as a whole, was not done in one-off prototypes, it seems entirely relevant to leave low production aircraft out of the picture and diversify the platform with things that actually saw a quantifiable level of service: Po-2s, I-153s, I-15s, Fi 156s, IAR-80/81s, Li-2s, Fw 189s, DB-3s, Hs 123s, etc.

 

There are dozens of aircraft that actually saw service that deserve to be modeled before prototypes, non-fielded modifications, etc.

 

Just because you like them doesn't mean anything to me either but I see that you were primarily hoping for an echo chamber of agreement.

 

[Edited]

 

I spent many years in Russia, mainly in Moscow region and we visited many museums (there is a great tank museum called Kubinka which is well worth a look if you have the chance), but sadly the only PE-2 I remember seeing was at Monino (one of the largest aviation museums in the world) but it had its weapons removed. 

 

Speculating here, but by the end of the war I'm guessing that most of the stuff was recycled and used towards new production so this makes it hard to establish exact numbers of these different aircraft's we are discussing. I'm sure there will be a deep dark file somewhere with specifics in the state archives. Fair enough on the more produced versions, but now we are just coming down to reductionist relativity. I think we have established that we don't really care for each others personal wants and wishes on the matter and I respect that. 

 

That said, I may be being slightly naive here expecting much implementation of suggestions at all, judging by other polls and things. I don't mean that pejoratively, I guess the devs are just very busy.  I was certainly not thinking this would be any sort of echo chamber- purely because I have looked through other suggestions and polls already. 

 

Please refrain from name calling. 

Edited by Bearcat

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Just because you don't like them, it doesn't mean they didn't exist and played a part and being as the majority of fighting in the second world war was done in Russia, the logic of not allowing one thing over the other just because of how many were produced seems odd to me. 

 

Only 5 MC 202s were ever experimentally fitted with gunpods. It was a failed project.

 

 

Interesting, you are talking about absolute war that by the end of it all involved well over 100,000 Soviet aircraft (around 21000 were shot down by the end of the war) being produced, so can you prove that a PE-2 that was loaded up with a ShVak never flew on the Stal/Mos front? I can't prove they did but its more likely they did just by looking at the ShVak production cycles. 

 

The burden of proof is on you to prove there were Pe-2s flying operationally with 20 mm cannons, not the other way around. I'm not the one who's asking for said loadout. :)

 

P.S. The developers, being in Russia, are very familiar with the Russian / Soviet military archives, so if there ever was evidence that Pe-2s flew operationally with 20 mm cannons, they'd probably be the first to discover that. That they haven't, though, by this point should tell you something. 

Edited by LukeFF
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When it comes to these sorts of things absence of evidence really is evidence of absence. If there are no sources detailing production of Pe-2s with ShVAK armament and no hard evidence of such things being fitted in the field, that is a very good reason to assume, that such Pe-2s did not see action in the GPW.

 

I love the Peshka and would jump at a good opportunity to have it up-gunned, but it has to be grounded in reality, or else I have no interest.

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I would rather see a Pe-3 variant as an unlock/mod loadout choice as it should be fairly straightforward, essentially all it requires is adding a 20mm ShVAK to the nose along with a second 12.7mm, removing most of the bombload along with the ventral gunner and fairing over the glazed nose with steel.

It could easily be added as a mod rather than requiring an entirely new aircraft model, akin to the Pe-2 s87/s110 options, the LaGG and La-5/F and Fw-190A-5 ground attack/engine kit.

 

It won't quite be a match for the 110 but it would give the VVS a rough equivalent. In addition it was used as a night interceptor as well as for long-range recon, which could provide and encourage some interesting new mission options.

The Pe-3 definitely served in the Moscow and Stalingrad areas as well so it would fit the theatres we have.

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Only 5 MC 202s were ever experimentally fitted with gunpods. It was a failed project.

 

 

The burden of proof is on you to prove there were Pe-2s flying operationally with 20 mm cannons, not the other way around. I'm not the one who's asking for said loadout. :)

 

P.S. The developers, being in Russia, are very familiar with the Russian / Soviet military archives, so if there ever was evidence that Pe-2s flew operationally with 20 mm cannons, they'd probably be the first to discover that. That they haven't, though, by this point should tell you something. 

 

I'm aware of the devs originating there. And lets not forget the other point of my request in regards to the JU-88's. :)

 

When it comes to these sorts of things absence of evidence really is evidence of absence. If there are no sources detailing production of Pe-2s with ShVAK armament and no hard evidence of such things being fitted in the field, that is a very good reason to assume, that such Pe-2s did not see action in the GPW.

 

I love the Peshka and would jump at a good opportunity to have it up-gunned, but it has to be grounded in reality, or else I have no interest.

 

"evidence really is evidence of absence. " That is a philosophical debate for another day. :D

 

 

I would rather see a Pe-3 variant as an unlock/mod loadout choice as it should be fairly straightforward, essentially all it requires is adding a 20mm ShVAK to the nose along with a second 12.7mm, removing most of the bombload along with the ventral gunner and fairing over the glazed nose with steel.

It could easily be added as a mod rather than requiring an entirely new aircraft model, akin to the Pe-2 s87/s110 options, the LaGG and La-5/F and Fw-190A-5 ground attack/engine kit.

 

It won't quite be a match for the 110 but it would give the VVS a rough equivalent. In addition it was used as a night interceptor as well as for long-range recon, which could provide and encourage some interesting new mission options.

The Pe-3 definitely served in the Moscow and Stalingrad areas as well so it would fit the theatres we have.

 

^This. PE-3's - complete with shvak's were definitely present at the BOM.

 

Edited by Gunner_Ratchenko

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On 11/8/2017 at 6:57 PM, LukeFF said:

 

Only 5 MC 202s were ever experimentally fitted with gunpods. It was a failed project.

 

What is the source of this information ?
Plz tell the book name & author

I`v heard only about 1 prototype.

Regards

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