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rolikiraly

Bunch of noob questions

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Hi all!

 

Now i finally have BOS Standard. Few questions below (for which i could likely find the answers somewhere, but i don't feel like looking through all the topics and i'm not sure which info is up to date)

 

1, Any tips on where to start with my Logitech Extreme 3d pro regarding axis response curves? Talking about Bf-109F-4.

 

2, I am totally new to WW2 flying, but i did some in WW1 (RoF). Coming from the older planes, i'm really not sure how rudder is supposed to be used on these ones? Or maybe it isn't that much different and i will find out by myself?

 

+ Any Bf-109 specific guides that are compatible with new fm are welcome. I already know about the detailed in-game information about engine management etc., also i know that there are great tutorials about combat and flying general.

 

Thanks!

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No idea about your first question but you’re rudder is very valuable. Basically it keeps you in coordinated flight. On some aircraft they will have a turn coordinator. The bottom of the instrument is a ball in fluid similar to what you find in a spirit level. You want to try and keep the ball centered to stay in coordinated flight. Centering the ball is done by stepping on it. If the ball is left use left rudder and so on for the right side. Staying coordinated will help with maneuvering and being preemptive on the rudder will create a smoother flight.

Edited by lightswitch

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I suggest you should watch these and related tutorial videos first.

 

Amúgy pedig isten hozott a fedélzeten! :)

  • Upvote 2

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OK, experiences so far are a bit weird.

 

I spent a good amount of time creating crop circles on the ground :D, but i finally managed to take off. I guess locked tailwheel is the way to go?

 

What really surprised me was the flying behaviour. I've always read that planes in IL-2 BOS feel twitchy and light compared to other sims (especially Bf-109). Now, i felt the complete opposite, honestly flying felt very sluggish, like if the controls were ineffective and delayed. Actually it was hard enough for me just to stay in the air :D.

 

BTW i don't think i had damage or something like that, no messages or any signs of such thing in replay.

 

It might be the fact that i come from RoF, but i think maybe there is a problem with the controls, because it really felt like i would never be able to do the crazy maneuvers one can see from other pilot's videos, or even do a full horizontal turn in anywhere near 20-22s.

 

Any thoughts on this? Do i just really suck? :D

 

Also, how often do you adjust the stabilizer in-flight? Again, coming from RoF, i am used to pushing the stick constantly, but it might not be necessary here.

 

Otherwise the sim obviously looks amazing!

 

Thanks!

Edited by rolikiraly

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One thing is that while the Sopwith Camel has a wing loading of only 31 kg/sqm, the 109 has 181 kg/sqm. WWII aircrafts are in fact 6 times more “heavy” than WWI planes. One of the great things in BoX is that you can feel this weight and the resulting inertia. At high speeds above 300 kph don’t expect them to behave like lightweight WWI planes. And at lower speeds they simply fall out of the sky. High speed combat is more about energy state calculations and fast passes than about constant turning and burning.

 

Another thing is your stick settings. 60% sensitivity feels OK for me for all three axes (I have a short stick as you do, an MSFFB2). Lower sensitivity means a more linear input, the plane reacts more vividly, but this makes aiming harder, and you run the danger of inadvertently “overpulling” and stalling your plane. A higher sensitivity setting makes the plane more sluggish. Another thing to check is the Noise Filter. It shouldn’t exceed 0.02 unless you have a very crappy stick.

 

IMO the 109 is not the best beginner plane, particularly for someone coming from ROF. My choice would be the Yak instead. It’s a pretty fast and very forgiving turn-fighter which comes closest (in WWII terms) to what you got accustomed to in ROF. Take the Yak as an introduction to WWII flying. Once you learnt to master it and can easily defeat a veteran AI flying an Bf-109-E7, you can move on to the 109 and learn the difference. Just my 2 cents. Happy flying!

  • Upvote 2

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Thanks for taking your time!

 

I guess you are right on the first point, i just didn't expect THAT big of a difference. I also started with rather high 'sensitivity' settings, will definitely try a shallower curve.

About the noise filter: i had it on max. because in one of the videos the guy did that with the same joystick as mine. Probably i will also mess with this setting as something really didn't feel right.

 

I am not sure about the Yak though, i wasn't actually a turn 'n' burn only guy in RoF either, i liked the SE5a very much. I chose to start with the Messer because 1, engine management is easier (less things to bother with while i still can't fly at all  :biggrin: ) and 2, personel preference.

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As to engine management, sure, the 109 seems easier, but a bit of fury on your side and you already cooked the engine, while in the Yak you set the RPM and the rad, and then you can fly full throttle all the time without bothering about your engine.

 

Another argument for the Yak is the "Learn your opponent"-one. Being a Messer-guy, the Yak will be your most formidable opponent, if you learn its strengths and weaknesses you will have better chances to defeat it.

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This game recently had a major flight model overhaul, so the extreme acrobatics you may have seen come from the previous era where the planes all behaved more like red bull racing planes.

 

Everyone is probably going to have their own opinion, but you don't need much sensitivity anymore (and if you had a lot then that will likely be a primary reason why your plane is sluggish).

 

For sensitivity i would not use about 20 - 30 for pitch (but i have seen some guys say they use 0 now since changes), 0 for roll unless you have a dodgy deadzone then a bit, and rudder i think completely depends on what pedals you have. I use 30 but i have [Edited] CH pedals that work with springs so its often hard to keep small movements smooth when breaking spring tension.

 

I fly 109 too and i think it's very helpful to keep your stabiliser quite high, i normally stay at -50%, because in your attack dives you need the assistance from it to be able to pull up and out at high speeds now.

 

I'm not a pilot but from sim experience the rudder is used for 4 things off the top of my head.

1. Keeping your plane as aerodynamic as possible in straight flight (countering the inertia from the propeller direction), and turns. You can see the drag you're creating from the spirit meter panel)

2. Initiating rolls (and therefore turns). I find at least, applying rudder first a little bit before rolling kicks the plane over more smoothly and i believe it creates less drag but i could be talking bollocks.

3. last second aim adjustments

4. the opposite of 1 to lose speed if you want to, like in landing, turning your bird's arse to the wind to create as much drag as possible, i forget the name now.

 

THere may well be more but i'm fairly sure those are the most basic. And 3 is just my opinion i might be wrong.

Edited by Bearcat

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4. the opposite of 1 to lose speed if you want to, like in landing, turning your bird's arse to the wind to create as much drag as possible, i forget the name now.

 

 

Sideslipping.  It is basically rolling the wings then using opposite rudder to cancel out any tendency to turn caused by the roll.  You will lose speed and altitude fast as you come in with your nose high at about 30 degrees to the direction of travel.  Useful when you find yourself too high & fast to land and dont want to turn away and burn off speed and alt before trying again.

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Thanks for the input guys.

 

 

I already lowered the sensitivity, flew around a bit more. It is getting better.  I guess i will try with even lower sensitivity. Rudder is applied by twisting the stick in my case (no pedals), which means i basically give rudder input almost all the time even if i would try to just pitch and roll. So i think a little deadzone and sensitivity is needed there.

 

It seems i will need a bit more time to get used to these planes, but i will try. Probably won't go near multiplayer for a very long period though  :biggrin:.

 

Also, coming from  RoF, climb rate is absolutely ridiculous even at only 1.2 ata  :biggrin: . Really it's just 25 years difference but feels like a completely different era of flight.

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Good to see you coming to BoX rolikiraly. I remember you well from RoF. :)

 

When I first started on BoS early access (which a much more twitchy FM than we have now), it was a bit of a shock for me as well. Flying planes that are that much heavier and flying that much faster makes everything feel completely different. 

 

Whenever I go back to RoF from BoX it always takes me nearly half an hour to get back into the mindset of flying WW1 kites.

 

Hope you stay around. This really is an awesome sim in virtually every way.

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I will definitely stay, i need a lot of practice!  :biggrin: And you are right about the sim, i hope the devs are really proud of it (and continue with the series)

 

About the sensitivity: it seems to me that less is more in this case. I've reduced it further for pitch and roll and it feels a bit more natural now.

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Yep, it's counter-intuitive, less joystick sensitivity actually means more control authority (sensitivity) towards the centre (the response curve is more linear). Just keep in mind that a very agile aircraft with twitchy controls may make your life very hard when aiming. Do some gunnery practice to find the balance between agility when flying and stability when firing.

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Completely agree, planes must feel heavier (which is accurate), but on the other hand they are tougher too.  Just be careful, as they are faster they tend to break apart under certain conditions.

 

Nice Flying!

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:salute:

 

Reporting back after a couple more hours in the Messer.

 

One thing i couldn't figure out so far, is how to actually look around on the map mid-flight? Also what should i see there? I can't see my own plane's position or am i doing something wrong?

 

More importantly, let me ask again about the stabilizer: in a video a guy basically said that i should use it all the time, actively contributing to the maneuvers. Another pilot named Sheriff also talked about this, but in the combat footage running in the background, i don't think he ever adjusted it (?).

My own experience is that it matters a lot in mainly high speed dives, where i have to set it very low to keep it going down, and much higher if i want to quickly get out of the dive. Actually setting the stabilizer higher was the only way i could induce the blackout effect, which means i'm really able to pull up more sharply. 

Any more opinions on this? Did you get used to adjusting it constantly or you rather fight the stick more and don't bother that much about stabilizer?

 

Anyway, if some of you maybe never even tried to adjust it, i recommend you to give it a look as it really seems to make a big difference, at least with my joystick.

 

Also, how easy and fast was this thing to adjust in the real plane? If i remember correctly, it's a rotating wheel type control in the cockpit, not looking like it's meant to be constantly adjusted? (but i might be wrong)

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What you see on the minimap depends on your difficulty settings.

The same applies to the full screen briefing screen. I prefer it to the minimap as it's bigger and has more detail. Better for navigation.

 

As to the 109, I'm fairly new to it in BoX, not much experience here. I use various stabilizer settings for the different flight regimes, but otherwise I don't bother about it too much. I know of some people who use it constantly, though.

- climb: neutral or modestly tail-heavy (up);

- cruise: modestly nose-heavy (down)

- combat (preference: turn): modestly nose-heavy (down) or neutral

- combat (preference: speed): nose-heavy (down+)

- landing: tail-heavy (up+).

 

Generally you need downward pitch trim to keep on the dive path and some upward pitch trim to get out of the dive.

It's particulary important in high speed dives when your controls freeze and changing trim is your only chance to avoid collision.

 

AFAIK adjusting the trim wheel was easy, but multiple rotations were needed, so it took considerable time. You can check it yourself if you look down left in the cockpit, it rotates as it did IRL. You can read the actual setting lower left on an instrument (if you have good eyes, as the numbers are rather small.) Refer to the cockpit guide to find it.

 

Cheers, and happy flying!

Edited by sniperton

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Hi again! Thanks for the tips.

 

A few more hours in the Messer, I feel like i'm slowly improving. What still seems tricky though is to properly get a short burst into the enemy in a high speed attack, due to the stiff controls. But maybe it will get better with more practice.

 

I also still struggle with deflection shots, i think it's because of 2 things: my own plane obstructing the view (as i understand, real pilots experienced this problem as well) and me not being able to correctly estimate the speed of the enemy. It's a bit annoying but hopefully it's just a matter of time.

 

Another aspect in which i could use some tips is about spotting enemies. Right now i have Ultra preset with SSAO off, HDR and Sharpen on, gamma on 0.9. This should do the job (and game looks awesome with these settings) but i'm honestly quite bad at spotting planes, especially against forest background. Is there a trick with graphics that i missed which helps increasing contrast, or it's just "practice" again  :biggrin: ?

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Spotting is a much debated issue, see e.g. here: https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/32467-how-current-contact-visibility-negatively-impact-tactics-box/

My personal impression is that only people with huge 4K displays find it adequate. My personal experience is that spotting and tracking targets beyond 1000m on a 22" full HD monitor is near impossible for me if icons are not enabled. Targets are simply too small and blend into the background.

You may want to switch off anti-aliasing and/or texture filtering to improve target visibility, but it comes on the price of less nicer image.

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A little note, in 109 G2 you can use manual prop pitch to keep 2800RPM for ~1.5 minutes(didnt measure that exactly) as kind of WEP. It has saved my bottom many times in steep climbs against yak1b. 

Edited by CSAFD3adCZE

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:salute:

 

Here is another 'noob' question: which one should i get: FW190A-3 or MC.202? (Let's suppose it can't be both for now).

I now I should stick to the Bf-109 or learn the Yak-1, but i'd really like to try the above two sooner or later, and there is a sale right now...

 

Arguments for FW-190:

- To me it seems it's relative strengths are similar to what the SE5a had in RoF, and that was my choice there :) 

- It is possibly the more effective one overall compared to MC.202 (also better suited to later settings)

- ???

 

for Folgore:

- it should be more forgiving overall ('noob-friendly', am i right on this??) and have better turnfighting capabilities

- it's nice looking, maybe my favorite ever

- i guess it makes you good at aiming  :biggrin:

- ???

 

Do you have anything to add? Other important things to consider? Thanks!

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I love the Macchi, but if you want to try out something really different than the 109, go for the Fw.

There's a saying here that the Macchi is poor man's 109. It's greatest weakness is firepower (I mean, the lack of it). Without the MG151/20 gunpods it's nearly as harmless as the Rata. With gunpods its performance is very much compromised.

In a Macchi you'll have the feeling "Good God, I hit him several times, and he's still flying"; in a Fw, you'll have the feeling "Good God, I missed him several times, but this last shot brought him down in half a second".

If you want to improve your skills as a 109 pilot, go for the Macchi. If you want to learn something completely different, go for the "Butcher Bird".

 

 

Edit: As Chistmas is upon us, I'd consider buying BoM Premium for $40 instead of Fw for $10 or MC.202 for $12. I know, I know, the difference is HUF 9K, but you'll get each plane for HUF 1K (including the Macchi) instead of 3K. Pays off in the long run.

Edited by sniperton

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Thanks for the input!

 

Is the armament on the Folgore really that useless? Even with the 7,7s in the wing? The cannon modification must cost a lot of performance and it's not really historically correct.

 

I get your point regarding the prices, but for me, 10 plane packages are pretty much overkill. I mean i won't have the time to actually really use them all (with all the time needed just to figure out the different controls/management), i'd rather stick to a handful of planes that i really like. 

Edited by rolikiraly

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Not useless, just one of the weakest as to firepower. Even with LMG gunpods it has but 50-60% of the punch other WWII fighters like the 109 have. It's sufficient against fighters, but don't expect many Il-2 or Pe-2 kills. The Macchi is more a pure dogfighter than an able interceptor without the cannon pods.

The "Butcher Bird" is on the other extreme in this regard. Just an approximation, but this gives you an idea:

 

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/28427-20mm-cannon-under-power-comparing-127mm-mgs/?do=findComment&comment=546866

 

Also consider that the low firepower of the Macchi is somewhat compensated with a high ammo load. Refer to my next post following the above link.

Edited by sniperton

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Ok i finally got both, as you said it's Christmas after all  :biggrin:

I will probably first try the Macchi in the next few days. Really curious about how it handles compared to the Messer. Of course i'll look through the ingame notes and watch tutorials if there are any, but also if you have any special tip/trick for this bird, don't hold it back  :)

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Great, and Happy Christmas! I'm sure you won't regret your decision. Both planes are fun to fly, and both require some patience and discipline. In the Macchi you'll have to wait a bit more (hanging around his six) until your enemy goes down, in the Fw you'll have to wait a bit more until you get a solution. That's all, really. And don't forget, it's not a shame when a Yak shoots you down, but in any other case it's due to some mistake on your side.

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Merry Christmas to you as well! So far i can only tell that the Folgore cockpit feels really claustrophobic and the vision is probably more obstructed than with the Messer (but i still like it, i think the devs did a great job on this one). I have not actually flown it yet

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I will probably first try the Macchi in the next few days. Really curious about how it handles compared to the Messer. 

 

Better roll rate by quite a bit. Controls stiffen less at speed, so you have a lot more effective elevator authority which makes high speed shots much easier. You're complaints above about the 109 are almost certainly due to the fact the 109's controls stiffen significantly at higher speeds. In comparison the 202 suffers less than the 109 in this department. Firepower is worse, and other than the E7 and F2 it's slower. 

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Better roll rate by quite a bit. Controls stiffen less at speed, so you have a lot more effective elevator authority which makes high speed shots much easier. You're complaints above about the 109 are almost certainly due to the fact the 109's controls stiffen significantly at higher speeds. In comparison the 202 suffers less than the 109 in this department. Firepower is worse, and other than the E7 and F2 it's slower. 

 

Yes, the first 2 things you said are the ones that stood out the most for me as well, coming from the F-4. Performance is markedly weaker though, with a rather fragile engine. More extreme maneuvering on lower speeds is also very difficult for me on this plane. Honestly i struggle against the AI ace Spit VB in a 1v1 (same altitude) setting.

 

I've also flown the Yak-1 a little bit, and my experiences are pretty much in line with what i was expecting. Easy to maneuver, great visibility, ok performance. Cannon ammo however is too low for my skill  :biggrin: Also there are no ammo indicators that i noticed.

 

I already made a single test flight with the FW as well, based on first impressions this might become my favourite. 

One question: it seems i can't fire MGs separately, just together with the inner cannons. As far as i know, it worked like this on the real thing, too, but I'd like to know if there is maybe some way in-game to fire separately?

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Not any that I know of. You can fire the MG-FFs separately, but the MG17s and the MG151s are controlled togerther.

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After a bit of further reading, it seems that it WAS possible to shoot any pair of guns separately on the real plane, with the use of switches located on the right panel in the cockpit. Kurt Tank is not the one to leave any inconveniences (for the pilot) in his design  :biggrin: . Switches on the joystick itself provided the same fire modes that are there ingame as well.

 

Anyway, it's not a big deal obviously, armament on this thing is really awesome as it is  :biggrin:

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You may find my basic tutorial videos on Taxiing and Instrument flying helpful.

 

 

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Thanks!

Fortunately, i've more or less figured out the basics of taxiing and takeoff by now.

Interesting point about the FW vs. BF109 landing gear comparison. In-game i don't feel like ground handling is necessarily easier or safer in the Focke, while real reports (often pilots coming from Bf-109) always emphasize this and ground accidents were less common. 

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Perhaps in BoX we have smoother runways and less turbulence and/or crosswind near the ground, which may have made a huge difference in RL. The heavy Fw sits rock solid even after a hard touchdown, while the lightweight 109 is likely to bump unless you succeed with a perfect 3-point landing at stall speed. This can be easily made under ideal circumstances, but just set up a QMB mission with strong crosswind and heavy turbulence, and probabaly you'll feel the difference :cool:

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Thanks!

Fortunately, i've more or less figured out the basics of taxiing and takeoff by now.

Interesting point about the FW vs. BF109 landing gear comparison. In-game i don't feel like ground handling is necessarily easier or safer in the Focke, while real reports (often pilots coming from Bf-109) always emphasize this and ground accidents were less common. 

Are you pulling stick bacwards while taxiing?

 

- Airplane has a tail wheel lock system which locks the tail wheel if the flight-stick is pulled backward. The tailwheel should be locked when taxiing straight for a long distance, before takeoff and after touchdown upon landing.

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Perhaps in BoX we have smoother runways and less turbulence and/or crosswind near the ground, which may have made a huge difference in RL. The heavy Fw sits rock solid even after a hard touchdown, while the lightweight 109 is likely to bump unless you succeed with a perfect 3-point landing at stall speed. This can be easily made under ideal circumstances, but just set up a QMB mission with strong crosswind and heavy turbulence, and probabaly you'll feel the difference :cool:

 

Yes, that's right. Also the controls are very different themselves, as i use only the joystick + mouse/keyboard combination for rudder, brakes etc. which is obviously not 'realistic'.

 

 

Are you pulling stick bacwards while taxiing?

 

- Airplane has a tail wheel lock system which locks the tail wheel if the flight-stick is pulled backward. The tailwheel should be locked when taxiing straight for a long distance, before takeoff and after touchdown upon landing.

 

Thanks, and yes, I do know about that. It's just i'm not sure if (as a real ww2 pilot) I would have really liked that system AFTER flying maybe hundreds of hours on the Messer. Maybe they were already pulling the stick on the Messer anyway? (in those situations)

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Thanks, and yes, I do know about that. It's just i'm not sure if (as a real ww2 pilot) I would have really liked that system AFTER flying maybe hundreds of hours on the Messer. Maybe they were already pulling the stick on the Messer anyway? (in those situations)

Yes,  you should pull stick backwards in every plane, even without locking system like that in FW 190.

Edited by =L/R=Mad_Mikhael

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Thanks, and yes, I do know about that. It's just i'm not sure if (as a real ww2 pilot) I would have really liked that system AFTER flying maybe hundreds of hours on the Messer. Maybe they were already pulling the stick on the Messer anyway? (in those situations)

I think the main difference is when taxiing, I find the 190's lock system more intuitive, and taxiing with the 190 is really easy. (I must admit that I have a simple DIY rudder, so that I can use the twist axis on the stick for directional breaking.)

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