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Scripted campaigns will never be excellent until AI is improved


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#1 Pericles

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Posted 31 October 2017 - 18:14

I have attempted to play many user-made scripted campaigns, including Fritz's Life and The Butcher. In these campaigns the AI rarely cooperates. You basically fly alone. In the stock campaign, the AI is much more reliable (although far from excellent). 

 

For those of you who have played the two purchasable campaigns, would you say the AI is as reliable as in the stock campaign? Is the AI any good? 

 

I feel that before new BoX titles are produced, it would be wise to make AI improvement a priority. This includes more reliable taxiing, take-off, landing, and tracking of flight leader. 


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#2 OpticFlow

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Posted 01 November 2017 - 11:13

I have attempted to play many user-made scripted campaigns, including Fritz's Life and The Butcher. In these campaigns the AI rarely cooperates. You basically fly alone. In the stock campaign, the AI is much more reliable (although far from excellent). 

 

For those of you who have played the two purchasable campaigns, would you say the AI is as reliable as in the stock campaign? Is the AI any good? 

 

I feel that before new BoX titles are produced, it would be wise to make AI improvement a priority. This includes more reliable taxiing, take-off, landing, and tracking of flight leader. 

 

Once I started to fly multiplayer on Random Expert, the single player mode lost all its attraction to me. There is simply no comparison.


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#3 1./JG54_Hoss

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Posted 01 November 2017 - 11:58

I have played both purchased campaigns and most of the scripted campaigns that have been made, Alberts life, Fritz's Life, Ivan's War, JG-51 Rzhev, Sirens of Death, Butcher, Chir Front, Cold Winter... etc...etc...  Some are very very good and some the AI is terrible... I'm not sure if it depends on when the missions were built and with which update, and how they have been affected since.  I know formation keeping is awful, on one campaign I have to fly to first waypoint and turn around and wait for the AI to take off, in some where I'm not the leader it's better, Sirens of Death, and a soon to be released 110 campaign.... but AI are oblivious to weather.... and often go in the clouds where I'm completely seperated from the group............. 

 

But in a nutshell the AI needs a much deserved update, or code rewrite........... the legacy IL2 is much better in this regard.... AI is much more disciplined and flies tighter formations.

 

Cheers

 

Hoss


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#4 Juri_JS

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Posted 01 November 2017 - 16:07

There was a special AI bug report thread recently, which is now closed, so I think there's hope we will get a reworked AI in the future.


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#5 Space_Ghost

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Posted 02 November 2017 - 13:32

Once I started to fly multiplayer on Random Expert, the single player mode lost all its attraction to me. There is simply no comparison.

 

That doesn't answer the question whatsoever.

 

He didn't ask for a discussion on the merits of SP vs. MP.

 

OT: I do agree, OP, that virtually all of the SP content is lackluster due to lackluster AI.


Edited by Space_Ghost, 02 November 2017 - 13:33.

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#6 katdog5

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Posted 02 November 2017 - 14:25

AI seems more than decent to me. The purchasable campaigns are great. 

 

The Butcher first mission is fantastic. Taxiing etc. great job. After that, I think the mission maker said he needs to rework the campaign.  Keep in mind that in order to have cooperative AI you needs hours and hours of testing and getting your settings and timing for each plane just right. ie. veteran, rookie etc.  A lot to ask for mission makers who dont necc have the time to test the same mission 30 times to perfect it for your one 25 min flawless experience. Not sure how much AI can be blamed?

 

In the purchased campaign Ten days of Autumn, we were intercepted by inferior planes, but because I didn't act correctly I was hit and shot down...it was great. AI was perfect.  Im writing this from the gulag. Send help 


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#7 Ishtaru

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Posted 02 November 2017 - 14:55

AI seems more than decent to me. The purchasable campaigns are great. 

 

I would like to have the same game as you, where did you get it and which one is it? :o

 

I repeat myself i know but the AI in BoX is just bad. I dont care if the AI has to use the same FM or a simplified one when it cant produce believable and exciting behavier. The AI has 360° vision in all axies and almost no view restriction. That alone makes it boring and the fact that it cant do much except turning or spilt s. Also it has some unbelievable gunnery precision, cant follow your orders and is slow when it comes to fomration flying. I really hate the AI and wish we SP guys would get more attention from the devs. BoX deserves the best AI in this genre and not this crap. Sorry for my emotions. ;)


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#8 Space_Ghost

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Posted 02 November 2017 - 16:42

I would like to have the same game as you, where did you get it and which one is it? :o

 

I repeat myself i know but the AI in BoX is just bad. I dont care if the AI has to use the same FM or a simplified one when it cant produce believable and exciting behavier. The AI has 360° vision in all axies and almost no view restriction. That alone makes it boring and the fact that it cant do much except turning or spilt s. Also it has some unbelievable gunnery precision, cant follow your orders and is slow when it comes to fomration flying. I really hate the AI and wish we SP guys would get more attention from the devs. BoX deserves the best AI in this genre and not this crap. Sorry for my emotions. ;)

 

They always fight to the death. They never consider the odds, the weather or anything else. They have no programmed inclination to survive. They can always see the player, at any angle, through any thing. They can shoot you at incredible angles, while inverted and even while pushing negative G. They can't be surprised because they're perfectly aware in every situation and are actively calculating the approximate counter to every move you make. They can hardly surprise you or bounce you because they don't think in those kinds of terms. It will always descend to a treetop level turn fight. They can hardly attack ground targets. They can't keep spacing in formation and are either at combat power or idling while in flight.

 

If there are a fewshort phrases I would use to summarize AI behavior they are these:

  • Way over aware
  • Zero regard for surviving
  • Too algorithmic
  • Incapable of error

They should really take a note from the WOFF team who, with the prehistoric limitations of CFS3, have created a much more engaging experience when it comes to AI.

 

Here's a good writeup from the WOFF team: http://www.overfland...ts and more.pdf


Edited by Space_Ghost, 02 November 2017 - 17:04.

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#9 Ishtaru

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Posted 02 November 2017 - 16:59

Well written Space_Ghost, couldnt agree more with you. I hope the AI will change to the better at some day.

 

edit: After reading my first post it sounds a bit harsh, the devs do give us SP guys attention in the form of the new campaign system, dont get me wrong on that. But as good the campaign itself will be, without proper AI it will just be like the current campaign when it comes to flying with and against the AI. The AI will destroy all the hard work and fun, sadly. :(


Edited by Ishtaru, 02 November 2017 - 17:06.

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#10 BladeMeister

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Posted 02 November 2017 - 22:48

They always fight to the death. They never consider the odds, the weather or anything else. They have no programmed inclination to survive. They can always see the player, at any angle, through any thing. They can shoot you at incredible angles, while inverted and even while pushing negative G. They can't be surprised because they're perfectly aware in every situation and are actively calculating the approximate counter to every move you make. They can hardly surprise you or bounce you because they don't think in those kinds of terms. It will always descend to a treetop level turn fight. They can hardly attack ground targets. They can't keep spacing in formation and are either at combat power or idling while in flight.

 

If there are a fewshort phrases I would use to summarize AI behavior they are these:

  • Way over aware
  • Zero regard for surviving
  • Too algorithmic
  • Incapable of error

They should really take a note from the WOFF team who, with the prehistoric limitations of CFS3, have created a much more engaging experience when it comes to AI.

 

Here's a good writeup from the WOFF team: http://www.overfland...ts and more.pdf

Agreed, but they have been making some headway in the last updates. I have to give them credit for working on the AI. I honestly think

if they really work on these core issues that they will pick up a lot more new SP customers. WOFF UE is excellent with the AI and

Team Daidalos has done wonders with the AI in IL2 1946. It doesn't really matter if the AI uses the same physics as the player, what matters

is that the fight is fun and has some elements of unknown during the fight. Surprising the AI, having them run when outnumbered over Enemy territory or

injured or their plane is badly damaged would be a great start. The battle until death no matter what has to stop. I hope they continue to

concentrate on this as I believe there is money to be made in this area. ;)

 

S!Blade<><


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#11 Gambit21

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Posted 03 November 2017 - 00:48

AI is why (well one of the reasons) I concentrate on mud-moving campaigns (currently A-20 campaign)

That way I'm not dealing with fighter AI limitations, and have much more control over the player's experience.

All fighter vs fighter activity is AI vs AI, and largely just scenery for the player.

 

There are still AI challenges with regard to how the behave/attack etc, but the hurdles are far easier to navigate.

 

In any case, I have confidence that the AI will improve.


Edited by Gambit21, 03 November 2017 - 01:05.

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#12 =SqSq=switch201

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Posted 03 November 2017 - 17:49

AI is why (well one of the reasons) I concentrate on mud-moving campaigns (currently A-20 campaign)

 

A-20 campaign?!?!?!?!

 

.....

 

Oh you're a Tester I see. that explains it. you had me really excited there for a second. 


Edited by =SqSq=switch201, 03 November 2017 - 17:49.

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#13 Gambit21

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Posted 05 November 2017 - 04:46

A-20 campaign?!?!?!?!
 
.....
 
Oh you're a Tester I see. that explains it. you had me really excited there for a second.


Currently being built with the Pe-2 as a stand-in.
I'll release a Pe-2 version as well.
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#14 1./JG54_Hoss

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Posted 05 November 2017 - 05:50

Currently being built with the Pe-2 as a stand-in.
I'll release a Pe-2 version as well.

Awesome............ been waiting for a Pe-2 campaign, looking forward to your A-20 version too....................  is anyone ever going to make a good IL2 campaign?..................  Sturmoviks over Stalingrad is the only thing I have played so far, but it's not scripted............. at least the version I have isn't. 

 

Cheers

 

Hoss


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#15 Gambit21

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Posted 05 November 2017 - 07:29

I agree that we need more IL-2 content.

That was the original release plan - A-20/Pe-2/IL-2 but I started to think that flight times would be too long for most in the slower
IL-2. I might have to rethink that.
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#16 56RAF_Roblex

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Posted 05 November 2017 - 10:17

Has anyone found a workaround for the times when you are leading a flight in a scripted campaign and the AI refuses to take off?    I have tried waiting in speedup mode for the AI to stop shuffling behind me. I have tried telling them to 'Copy Me' before I take off. I have tried circling the field for 5 minutes. I have tried telling them to 'Return To Mission' while I am circling overhead.  Eventually I have to fly away and do the mission alone and they are still sitting on the runway when I get back.


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#17 tapi

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 07:22

There was a special AI bug report thread recently, which is now closed, so I think there's hope we will get a reworked AI in the future.

Hope too for some AI improvements in not so distant future. Maybe we will see some positive changes with the reworked campaign in 3.01 version... The new campaign without correction of at least the worst bugs in AI behavior would not have much sense.


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#18 katdog5

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 03:46

They always fight to the death. They never consider the odds, the weather or anything else. They have no programmed inclination to survive. They can always see the player, at any angle, through any thing. They can shoot you at incredible angles, while inverted and even while pushing negative G. They can't be surprised because they're perfectly aware in every situation and are actively calculating the approximate counter to every move you make. They can hardly surprise you or bounce you because they don't think in those kinds of terms. It will always descend to a treetop level turn fight. They can hardly attack ground targets. They can't keep spacing in formation and are either at combat power or idling while in flight.

 

If there are a fewshort phrases I would use to summarize AI behavior they are these:

  • Way over aware
  • Zero regard for surviving
  • Too algorithmic
  • Incapable of error

They should really take a note from the WOFF team who, with the prehistoric limitations of CFS3, have created a much more engaging experience when it comes to AI.

 

Here's a good writeup from the WOFF team: http://www.overfland...ts and more.pdf

great feedback. improvements would be solid!


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#19 Gambit21

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 07:29

Hope too for some AI improvements in not so distant future. Maybe we will see some positive changes with the reworked campaign in 3.01 version... The new campaign without correction of at least the worst bugs in AI behavior would not have much sense.


I've mentuined to Han on more than one occasion regarding AI ground behavior. - both on the beta forum and via pm.
As a campaign builder I'm especially attached to seeing these problems fixed.
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#20 tapi

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 07:35

They are definitely going to do some AI improvements as they mentioned it in the big Friday announcement. But it is placed in the list of the "future" improvements so I think ve will be lucky to get improved AI sometimes in 2018....


Edited by tapi, 20 November 2017 - 07:36.

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#21 motoadve

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 15:25

AI in BOX is real bad , destroys the immersion.

Hope it gets attention by developers.


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#22 Gambit21

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Posted 21 November 2017 - 01:34

They are definitely going to do some AI improvements as they mentioned it in the big Friday announcement. But it is placed in the list of the "future" improvements so I think ve will be lucky to get improved AI sometimes in 2018....

 

"Improved AI"  is generally referring to handing in the air, and is not the same as ground handling being tweaked necessarily...so we might (hopefully) see an improvement in this area sooner.

We'll see.


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#23 NETSCAPE

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Posted 21 November 2017 - 19:38

I have played both purchased campaigns and most of the scripted campaigns that have been made, Alberts life, Fritz's Life, Ivan's War, JG-51 Rzhev, Sirens of Death, Butcher, Chir Front, Cold Winter... etc...etc...  Some are very very good and some the AI is terrible... I'm not sure if it depends on when the missions were built and with which update, and how they have been affected since.  I know formation keeping is awful, on one campaign I have to fly to first waypoint and turn around and wait for the AI to take off, in some where I'm not the leader it's better, Sirens of Death, and a soon to be released 110 campaign.... but AI are oblivious to weather.... and often go in the clouds where I'm completely seperated from the group............. 

 

But in a nutshell the AI needs a much deserved update, or code rewrite........... the legacy IL2 is much better in this regard.... AI is much more disciplined and flies tighter formations.

 

Cheers

 

Hoss

 

I'm reading some IL-2 pilot accounts for research right now. But I'm not going to go full-on-Netscape-campaign-creation-mode until I can foresee the outcome of my Bf-110 campaign. A quality IL-2 campaign is on my mind though, either Stalingrad (winter) or Kuban (haven't research Shap units during that time yet). 

 

And yes, at some point I recall Gambit agreeing with my sentiment that when the player IS NOT flight lead the mission functions better overall.


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#24 Gambit21

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Posted 21 November 2017 - 21:12

Yep - having an AI flight leader is better by far.

For reasons Netscape can relate to... you can control/script/choreograph the mission and know exactly what experience the player is going to have and when.

Second, following orders and flying formation is better for immersion.

 

This is why the slow AI ground handling ticks me off...it's getting old.

Also, I need the flights to attack when ordered, and not spend 3 minutes making a sightseeing circuit first.


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#25 Gambit21

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Posted 21 November 2017 - 22:04

Also...yes we need more IL2 content.

I thought about releasing my A-20 campaign in an IL2 version as well...the flight times will be quite a bit longer than they already are though in the faster A-20 and I'll have to

spend time adjusting some things. Most things are on triggers though so assuming patient pilots it should be doable.


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#26 dburne

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Posted 22 November 2017 - 15:14

Regarding AI, heck I woud just be happy if my AI wingmen could shoot as well as the enemy AI. 


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#27 Picchio

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Posted 22 November 2017 - 23:37

Sorry for going slightly off-topic, but do we have an ETA for the Career? Is it supposed to be implemented along with the release of Kuban?


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#28 JG27_Kornezov

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Posted 23 November 2017 - 11:21

AI improvements are very complicated we should focus of some aspects of them what really kills your game play.

As I understand their ability to stay with you and follow orders is the most critical.


Edited by JG27_Kornezov, 23 November 2017 - 11:22.

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#29 Ishtaru

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Posted 24 November 2017 - 12:37

AI improvements are very complicated we should focus of some aspects of them what really kills your game play.

As I understand their ability to stay with you and follow orders is the most critical.

 

The most critical aspect is that the AI does the same all the time and will never miss or lose you from its view in my opinion. Following orders is important but not the most critical thing same as staying with you. We need more human like behavior with errors and the will to survive and where we can sneak up on them and stuff like that.


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#30 =11=herne

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Posted 06 December 2017 - 11:21

I've been playing a few quick mission 2 flights vs 2 flights ( 8v8 ) match up's for some furball action occasionally. I set the AI to veteran, and I actually think this is a lot of fun. I guess much of space ghosts criticism still applies, but at least all the enemy are not focussed on you, and you are able to take advantage of targets focussed on your AI team mates.

Programming AI in games such as these must be incredibly difficult. Probably relatively easy to make them perfect, so that they can always ride the edge of the flight envelope, while they bring guns that never miss to bare. The real difficulty comes with giving them that human factor. Programming in the ability for some pilot error, imperfect aim, lower situational awareness particularly from a low six. 

The other problem is how do you satisfy everyone ? a challenge for me, may be a piece of cake for some of you. I doubt this is an easy problem to solve.


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#31 Ishtaru

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Posted 06 December 2017 - 11:50

AI is a Problem that needs to be fixed. Most of us are offline and pay the same price as online guys but we get half the fun they get.


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#32 =11=herne

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Posted 06 December 2017 - 12:39

AI is a Problem that needs to be fixed. Most of us are offline and pay the same price as online guys but we get half the fun they get.

 

I do not disagree with you. I just think it's an easy thing to say, but a much more complex thing to actually do, Especially to do it well.


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#33 1/JSpan_Guerrero

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Posted 06 December 2017 - 13:19

The simulator in general is very good, just missing a good review on the subject of artificial intelligence mainly from your flight pilots. I know it's a difficult subject that Jason has already commented on. Possibly it is one of the most difficult specialties to find expert engineers in AI. Jason has said several times that he does not have on his team. I do not understand much programming but a good developer can see the code that does this works in IL2 46 and do something similar in the code lines of the new IL-2
 
After reaching pilot level 13, the most serious thing is that the AI ​​does not obey your orders. They are all 19-year old fighters just out of the school of pilots who have no discipline and attack every plane they see although it is 7km away and they leave you alone in the mission.
 
My main concern is that if this is not fixed a little before they launch the new system in a "pilot campaign" mode. There will never be expert pilots in your squad and the experience will be just as desperate. Your pilots will not be alive more than two missions and the airfield will be full of tombs with crosses. So you will always have inexperienced pilots in your squad just out of the pilot school.
 
This capture and I published at the time but here you can see the discipline of AI friend in my missions and what they answer me on the radio.   :biggrin:
 
 

Conversacion-por-radio.jpg


Edited by 1/JSpan_Guerrero, 06 December 2017 - 13:25.

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#34 FoxbatRU

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Posted 06 December 2017 - 14:53

Ideal AI can not be created. IMHO, now the main problem with AI, is that enemy fighters are killing themselves about the ground. Friendly fighters also do this. It would be good for a map of the Pacific, there were kamikaze. :ph34r:  But now all off-line missions are very easy to pass, because the enemy itself is broken. It is not interesting. :excl: 


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#35 Walter_Nowotny

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Posted 09 December 2017 - 12:10

(My english is not very well, so I used some Google translate):

 

The behavior of AI is very variable and as I have been trying, with small changes they improve a lot. Although also those changes it definitely does not improve and I choose to change their position (and they improve).

Example 1: In my case, it has been complicated to get many planes to take off from an AF. If I put several AI on runway and some in parking, those who start from the parking lot, usually hit each other before reaching the runway because the first group has not taken off completely. If I give them too much time between one group and another, the mission becomes very slow to continue. And sometimes the second group never takes off, and sometimes, yes.

 

Example 2: Even if I manage to give them more time between one group and another, the group that take off, if they are numerous, 2 or 3 AI skid and goes off the track. In some cases I have solved it trying to place the VPP as much as possible inline and in the middle of the group. A small movement of AI during take off can generate an exit from the runway in some cases.
 
Example 3: Moving around the track from the parking lot:  Placing many taxi points generates a slow AI. Place taxi point on the edges of the track, make them get out.
 
Many details that cause good improvements in AI and that sometimes we do not consider them.
In others, I simply have not been able to solve it. For example, I can´t achieve a good takeoff from a group of 12 HS129. Always 1 or 2 skid and leave the track. Finally I had two possibilities, reduce the number or place them in flight and it is solved. However, if I change them for 12 figther (109), no problem occurs. Maybe the issue is because this group is composed of groups of 4 squad each, and they have different waypoints). It could be solved if the 12 AI are in a single squad...maybe...I have not tried it yet. Or the other solution could be: first group after takeoff, enable the second, and the second after takeoff, enable the third. So no group influences each other on the runway (I have not tried that either, I'm thinking as I write).
 
And it is true, to achieve a good AI behavior, it requires a lot of tests (luckily there is the option "accelerate the mission"). I also test only the maneuver I want to try apart (new file). So I do not need to do the complete mission. And when it's OK, I add it in the general mission.
Each mission of the campaign that I am creating is checked several times. When I finish it I will need some Testers..... many eyes see better than 2.
 
Cheers!

Edited by Walter_Nowotny, 09 December 2017 - 12:13.

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