A look ahead to the Pacific

[HagarTheHorrible]

As long as it is a dull and light color it will be hard to spot against the sky. The individual color hue matters much less than one might think for real life spoting. So for the Zekes that were not exclusively used over the blue ocean, it is not a bad compromise for a paint. I bet it would be as hard to spot as sky grey used on fighters, especially lower down wehere the air is more humid.

 

Did some reading.

 

Evidently the "Hemp" colour was used to try and help the aircraft blend in when sitting on concrete pans to help avioid detection from aerial/satellite photography ( then Arse, not knowing what Ebow had done, or why, then resurfaced the pans with black Tarmac ). The same reasoning may have been behind the Japanese colour scheme, to aid them blending in when parked up in holding pens, although dust rather than concrete.

[sniperton]

Just as a side note, pre-war or early-war carrier-borne USN planes had no camo either. Look for the aircraft of Saratoga or Lexington from 1939 to 1941. Spotting friendlies was probably considered more important than hiding them from the enemy. Maybe the Japanese retained this logic well into the war.

Edited November 8, 2017 by sniperton

[Porkins]

I was thinking about the Pacific release over lunch and how hard it will be to wait probably close to two years for it to be released properly. And I was thinking about the dev's rolling early access releases etc. and wondering if we'll end up in a situation where we have Wildcats and Zekes over Stalingrad for a while before we get carriers and a Pacific map.

 

I came to the conclusion that if we get a blank water map, a (heavily WIP) carrier and a plane or two by the end of 2018, I will be more than happy. That way we can play with carrier landings, which are the #1 thing getting me drooling about Pacific. If they managed to do Wildcat and Zeke, it would even be enough for an arcadey Pacific dogfight server. (I guess we don't even the water map, we could just use the vast water on Kuban).

 

It's not unreasonable to expect no carriers til 2019 and mostly planes at first, but I hope they take a different approach and get even a basic carrier representation in the game around the same time as the first carrier aircraft. 

I think the most likely "early access" release of the game would be a Zero, Wildcat, Dauntless, and Val. Reason being that the devs have a ton of experience modeling fighter combat and dive bombing. It would also allow standard fighter/escort gameplay out of the gate. Torpedoes and (if they do it) flying boats would require much more OJT and it wouldn't surprise me if those took longer. 

 

As for ships, it wouldn't surprise me if even an early version of the game had a couple basic carriers. They have had ships in the series since Stalingrad, so I would think they could have a couple of empty deck carriers sailing box formations for players to land and take off from. Put some AA guns on them and there are your targets for the dive bombers. 

 

If they do Midway, I really hope they find an excuse to throw in some ground ops. Midway island is an obvious choice for Japanese planes, but they'll have to stretch to come up with an island targets for US planes given the scenario. 

[Gambit21]

The Zero has small control surfaces?

Since when?

 

Allied pilots called them "barn doors"

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

Seems color and paint discussions can be more extreme than the ones related to aircraft performance. I genuinely recommend reading the following articles which provide details of research carried over the years:

http://www.j-aircraft.com/research/imperial_japanese_navy_gray.htm

http://www.j-aircraft.com/research/amerio/out_of_ameiro.htm

http://www.j-aircraft.com/research/zeroclr.htm

 

If one finds above unsatisfactory, then there is faq section on j-aircraft and eventually forums on which for over a decade people argued over the actual color scheme. 

 

Details of usage of various kinds of camouflage on various Navy aircraft are explained a bit in the following article:

 

Sino-Japanese War and the return to camouflage

The Japanese intervention in China was met by unexpectedly stiff resistance in the air. Defensive camouflage was introduced when Japanese aircraft came under attack once they began flying from airfields on the Chinese mainland and from shore bases that were established for floatplane units. The role of the IJAAF was minor at this time when compared to that of the IJNAF planes, and camouflage was first reintroduced on Navy aircraft. This was to be known as “Kumogata” scheme, composed of brown with irregular dark green areas on the upper surfaces similar to the camouflage adopted by the RAF.

There were still many fabric-covered floatplanes, biplane torpedo-level-bombers and dive-bombers in service. This camouflage, applied in the field, bonded well to the original silver dope and no particular chipping is noticeable. This is not the case with the all-metal IJNAF types, which exhibited extensive and rapid peeling. This clearly demonstrates an important point — the paint itself was not the cause for the extensive peeling, the true reason was simply that the application of the paint in the field was done without primer.

When camouflage was applied to some of the IJAAF aircraft, this was painted over the factory-applied standard gray-green (except for foreign aircraft like the Fiat B.R.20 which were delivered in the original camouflage schemes) and when looking carefully at photos of these planes, hardly any abnormal paint chipping is visible.

Once the Japanese had established air supremacy at the end of 1938, the IJNAF was quick to abandon the systematic use of camouflage, except for long-range bombers which still operated unescorted (and suffered significant losses at the hand of Chinese fighters). “Peacetime livery” had returned.

In the meantime, the IJNAF was learning the hard way about exposure to salt air. The US Navy had better anticipated this in keeping all its “metallic birds” silver painted and not bare metal. Japanese bare-metal aircraft in salty atmosphere were adversely affected by inter-granular corrosion, despite the use of Alclad. The Nakajima B5N,  for an unknown reason (better Alclad treatment ??), was not affected to the same degree. Only the Type 97 Flying Boat entered service already finished with an overall finish of

silver paint.

The way the IJNAF coped with this new problem for one of its mainstays of the period, the Type 96 Kansen fighter, is still under much debate. Anyway, some anti-corrosion measures were taken, as the appearance of all-metal carrier aircraft changed, and fast. There were no more bare-metal aircraft, apart from the B5N, and coated surfaces became clearly apparent on aircraft finished in “peace time livery”. For example, the Type 99 dive-bombers were obviously covered with the same kind of silver paint (with a smooth but not mirror like finish) that was used on the contemporary metallic seaplanes. We won’t elaborate here on the real nature of the Type 96 Kansens finish, suffice to say that it gained a mirror like finish with a metallic appearance instead of bare metal. But soon a new finish was to appear…. Anyway, during the War in China, only the field-applied Kumogata camouflage was prone to extensive peeling when used on metal-skinned airplanes, as shown by available photos. We know now it was because of the absence of primer.

As far as the IJAAF was concerned, there was no noticeable modification during those years and the Ki. 27s engaged in the Nomonhan Incident (Khalkhin Gol) were still finished in the plain traditional glossy gray-green

 

Policy changes

Anticipating a probable broader confrontation, the IJNAF then decided that its next standard shipboard fighters would inaugurate what we will now call an “air superiority scheme” or an “offensive camouflage”.

The author believes that this camouflage was not at first defined precisely. It is known that the first A6M1 12-shi prototype was painted gray-green. There is no clear explanation for why the first operational A6M2 Model 11’s of the 12th Ku. In China were visibly treated in two tones of paint. The rear part of the fuselage and 2/3 of the external part of  each wing were clearly lighter and matt, while the rest of the plane (excepts the regulation black cowl) was glossy and darker.

The outcome was a glossy gray-green scheme which — all manufacturers variants included and most probably the majority (if not all) of the B5N’s excepted — was to become the standard scheme in first line units of the IJNAF when the Pacific War broke out, for all planes except the big multi-engine bombers and flying boats, which kept the earlier silver finish, and older types not in production and scheduled to be phased out.

This new glossy gray-green scheme was factory-applied with state-of-the-art techniques over a red brown primer, and it proved to be extremely resistant. No plane so painted is likely to exhibit any extensive peeling, even under harsh conditions. There is one photo of a much used Mitsubishi F1M2 in a later period with the green camouflage paint of the upper surface well worn (though not really peeling), and with the central float almost stripped of green paint by the abrasion of the sea, and which still retains a nominal matted coat of the gray-green paint. This author would not hesitate to qualify this glossy gray-green as one of the best and more resistant paints in use during this period by any belligerent. This is quite a far cry from the legend of the inferior quality of Japanese paint.

On the other hand, starting with its new Type 1 single engine fighter (Hayabusa), the IJAAF adopted a much simplified factory scheme for all single seat fighters. This factory finish was to be completed by front line units with the application of appropriate upper surface camouflage. The factory scheme consisted of a bare metal finish with only the fabric covered control surfaces treated the old way in glossy gray-green, an antiglare panel and the Hinomarus (at this time still applied only in four wing positions). This policy was in place for these aircraft up until the end of 1944, except for fuselage Hinomarus when these became mandatory sometimes in 1942. Much later, and only for a limited period, some multi-engined aircraft like Ki 49 Donryu were delivered to squadrons in Alclad finish, but this remained more an isolated case than the rule. As a general rule, until late 1944 multi-engined IJAAF planes were painted in the factory with a primer undercoat and an overcoat of the traditional glossy gray-green.

Single-engined fighters were sent out to frontline units without a prior application of primer. It was there, at the unit level in the field, that the camouflage was completed. Initially the most common scheme used was a solid coat of Jungle green, then all variations of blotches, stripes, and combinations of two or more colors were used on these planes. IJAAF camouflage colors were used mainly, but sometimes mixing produced non-standard colors, and the use of captured paint was also allowed. The important thing is that the lack of primer generated a lot of paint chipping and peeling, to the point where it has now been established that some artists’ renditions of planes in a blotched camouflage were in fact misinterpretations of a solid color coat that had peeled to the point where it looked like this “blotching” was done deliberately !

In contrast, multi-engined aircraft, finished in the factory with glossy gray-green and then camouflaged in the field with whatever pattern was in use by their unit never became so worn. They weathered just like Allied aircraft in comparable climate, or even less considering the durability of the gray-green paint, which apparently had the same qualities its Navy counterpart had. At the same time, the few types delivered to the units in an Alclad finish weathered the same way that single-engined fighters did. Of course, the climate and the conditions of the aircraft’s use played a role, but all in all the main difference in the way that Japanese aircraft weathered, when compared to Allied aircraft, was not a question of paint quality but the presence or absence of a priming coat.

 

Meanwhile in the IJNAF

At the time of the “Hawaiian Operation”, the offensive camouflage already described was standard for shipboard planes in first line units. With the exception of the Nakajima B5N2 Model 3 torpedo-level bombers, the glossy gray-green paint clearly predominated. Kates[2], even when camouflaged with the makeshift schemes that were the rule during this first day of the war, were painted without any primer and later were to exhibit a high degree of paint peeling. (See the photo of Fuchida’s plane during the operation against Ceylon, which was taken a not much later.)

Very soon this camouflage was considered unsuitable for all planes but the Zero fighter. Despite the continuous string of victory, a kind of standard, non-factory, “sea compatible” defensive camouflage developed. This consisted of the application of a solid dark green coat on the uppersurfaces, and this solid coat was even sometimes applied at sea aboard the carriers. The main aircraft concerned were all-metal floatplanes (Jake, Pete), Type 97 torpedo-level-bombers and Type 99 Model 11 dive-bombers, but this later extended to almost any aircraft other than shore or carrier based single-engined fighters. Although not applied at the factory, these camouflage finishes were usually applied on glossy gray-green factory painted aircraft, and soon the Kates also received a systematic application of underside gray-green. For a while, until this scheme began to be applied in the factory, the Kates remained subject to the peeling associated with the absence of primer. Some older model aircraft kept their pre-war finish even in first line service, like the 96 Kansens Model 4, and a few of the older sea or land-based fabric-covered biplanes were still in Kumogata. Heavy bombers 96 Rikkos (Nells) or Is’shikirikkos (Bettys) were still delivered unpainted as before, then painted in the Kumogata scheme at unit level, without primer as before and with the same consequence as far as paint peeling was concerned. Eventually even the flying boats got their “war paint”, a solid coat of dark green. It is difficult to know if the undersurface were really treated with a gray green under surface color, as a recent ModelArt book on the subject suggests. As usual, B&W pictures are impossible to interpret on that point. The author’s opinion is that the original silver paint was - for the H6K’s - the most probable finish for the undersurface, at least for aircraft receiving the dark green solid coat in the field. Despite difficult conditions of use, the fact that this planes were painted at unit level did not affect the durability of the paint used since the original coat was always applied on a primed surface. When compared to USN Catalinas for example, paint weathering and peeling is not any more evident on Japanese flying boats.

The situation had not changed significantly when the Solomon campaign began, however, except for the Zero fighters, the application of a solid dark green coat was about to begin as part of the manufacturing process. Heavy bombers kept the Kumogata scheme for a while, into August and September 1942. With the arrival of factory finished Bettys, the planes in Kumogata scheme were more often than not retouched, their brown color being covered by green (but so badly as the original scheme is often visible) and once again, applied on an unprimed coat of paint, extensive peeling continued. New Bettys arriving with their factory-applied dark green paint on the uppersurfaces and bare metal undersides were not as prone to peeling. A sample from the Jim Lansdale collection shows red-brown primer was present under the green coat despite the bare metal undersurfaces. On the other hand, some aircraft rushed from second-line units in Japan were quite different. Another Betty (a G6M1-L transport) for which Jim has a sample of fabric has a rather strange story to tell. This aircraft was obviously delivered in the bare metal with fabric covered parts in silver dope scheme (although the silver dope was applied on the red brown primer) over which a hastily-applied sprayed coat of Japanese dark green was added, later to be touched up with a brush using a much lighter green, which I suspect was Australian paint scrounged from the Rabaul facilities, in one of the worst paint jobs ever to be seen on an airplane. Another aircraft, a Type 99 Model 11 dive-bomber, obviously came from the same replacement pool, correctly sprayed in dark green uppersurfaces but still in silver dope undersurfaces. Considering the harsh conditions on these islands, and the visible differences between factory-applied camouflage finishes and the improvised camouflages, it is obvious that extensive paint peeling was characteristic of an unprimed paint job on a bare metal aircraft. Sometimes later, as 1942 drew to a close, even the Zeros in the Solomons began to receive defensive camouflage in the form of blotches, stripes and clouds of dark green paint applied over their high quality glossy gray-green factory finish. Despite the prevalent harsh conditions and climate, it is hard to find evidence of Zeros peeling.

By June 1943 the defensive camouflage of dark green over glossy gray-green paint job was systematically being applied in factories, and primer was consistently used for all types. The exceptions were big multi-engined aircraft such as heavy bombers, which remained bare metal underneath, and flying boats, which were given a protective silver (or glossy gray green ?) finish on the undersurfaces. Again, there is little evidence to show extensive paint peeling or weathering on a scale any greater than that apparent on Allied aircraft.

http://www.j-aircraft.com/research/weathering_question.htm

[sniperton]

Thanks for the links and info!

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Hoping to cruise some Pacific islands in this one, someday down the road.

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

But first has to be Catalina Murf !

 

On my trip into depths of board's I've found a few important and related threads, particularly to colors and Midway camo details:

http://www.j-aircraft.org/smf/index.php?topic=12134.0

http://www.j-aircraft.org/smf/index.php?topic=5890.0

http://www.j-aircraft.org/smf/index.php?topic=4747.0

[Feathered_IV]

Cheers for the summary of IJN colours. It’s worth noting however that the demarcation of the two-tone ameiro scheme on the extremities of early zeros was later discovered to correspond precisely with the edges of the tarpaulins used to cover the aircraft.

[xvii-Dietrich]

But first has to be Catalina Murf !

Here we go again...   

 

 

 

Just don't forget the Ju52/3m W , that's all.

 

 

On my trip into depths of board's I've found a few important and related threads, particularly to colors and Midway camo details:

http://www.j-aircraft.org/smf/index.php?topic=12134.0

http://www.j-aircraft.org/smf/index.php?topic=5890.0

http://www.j-aircraft.org/smf/index.php?topic=4747.0

Thanks for those links. More generally, that entire j-aircraft site has a lot of very interesting references and discussion.

 

http://www.j-aircraft.org/smf/index.php

 

There are also a lot of very good photographs.

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

Alright alright, lets make first Ju 52/3m W.

 

 Yes it has, but couple of weeks before they had some crap with spam and stuff like that which led to website owner trying to clean forum. In process most accounts had to be reviewed, which I've missed due to my real life issues, and so my account was deleted. As you may imagine I was kind of pissed, since I've posted there frequently and especially all my private messages were lost. But in regard to various data it is a mine.

[BlitzPig_EL]

Hoping to cruise some Pacific islands in this one, someday down the road.post-481-0-29808900-1506030074.jpg

 

Oh yeah!!!!!

[6./ZG26_Custard]

I hope the dev's take a cue from CFS 2 for the background menu music.  I still have fond memories, 10 years on.

 

https://youtu.be/BFVOuCWww_g

 

Something like this would be great.

 

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

Gib pls?

 

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

But first has to be Catalina Murf !

 

 

Abso-freakin-lutely!!!!

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

Imo CFS 2 intro had a lot more climate than old Il-2. Whole CFS 2 was more focused on story. 

[curiousGamblerr]

Something like this would be great.

 

Holy crap that brings me back

[Heliopause]

O yeah

 

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

Dutch Catalina ? 

There are better things 

 

 

 

 

[DD_Arthur]

Wow.  Where did they get the early B17 from?

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

Philippines and Netherlands East Indies

 

http://www.j-aircraft.com/captured/capturedby/b-17/captured_b17.htm

 

Two of those were used for training of both Navy and Army pilots on how to engage such a large targets and most effective ways of shooting them. 

Edited November 10, 2017 by =LD=Hiromachi

[von-Luck]

Hoping to cruise some Pacific islands in this one, someday down the road.

BoX does a wonderful job of blending terrestrial objectives to an arial experience. I too look forward to island action as it will be a familiar and very likely well executed part of the experience. The Solomon islands stand out particularly as a fantastic playground in this game. Float planes could make for some interesting ad hoc "airfields" in the game too.

 

von Luck

Edited November 10, 2017 by von-Luck

[Heliopause]

Don't forget this one  ....

 

[HagarTheHorrible]

Imo CFS 2 intro had a lot more climate than old Il-2. Whole CFS 2 was more focused on story.

 

Very true.

 

I would love to see Il2 BoP, if and when it does it's promo video pay homage to that great intro and do their own version, maybe starting with the cartoon style before the modern Il2 BoP breaks through (a silk painted or paper screen perhaps) into the modern graphics. I think it would be a really nostalgic grin for a lot of the old farts ( me included) around here. Looking back it's also nice to see how far we've come, I'd almost forgotten what 2d pits looked like and yet, at the time, I thought they were really cool.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

More seaplane spam.......

 

Couldn't fine a wartime photo with both in it at the same time. The photo with text implies this is a diorama of a real event.

[HBPencil]

The photo with text implies this is a diorama of a real event.

Indeed it was. More diorama photos and details here: http://rnzaf.proboards.com/thread/20348/rnzaf-catalina-diorama-nz4013-mission

[xvii-Dietrich]

More seaplane spam.......

No such thing.

 

 

Couldn't fine a wartime photo with both in it at the same time. The photo with text implies this is a diorama of a real event.

Do you have a link to where you found that? Or any information about the event?

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

What possible modifications could we get for F4F-4 ? 

I can certainly think of reduction of armament to four .50 caliber Brownings to match F4F-3 and some bombs, but what else could be given to it ?

 

For A6M2 there are a few options, depending how far one wishes to go.

I can think of at least six modifications such as: 60 kg bombs, enlarged ammunition drums for 20 mm cannons (from 60 to 100 rounds per drum), 250 kg bomb, air-to-air phosphorous bombs and CO2 fire extinguishers for fuel tanks and aileron balance tabs. Some of this require of course additional work, but there are plenty of options to choose from. 

[Feathered_IV]

Deleting the heavy radio equipment might be another option for the Zero.

 

Or maybe some condoms? The pilot’s gotta have at least some kind of protection...

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

 

 

Deleting the heavy radio equipment might be another option for the Zero.

It could, but I dont see what the fuss is about. Complete weight of Radio ( transmitter, receiver, generators for both, rdf system and antennae ) equipment was around 42 kg. It's not that significant to make any difference in this virtual combat. But I guess there is always that option ...

 

 

 

Or maybe some condoms? The pilot’s gotta have at least some kind of protection

Better wrap fuel tanks with those.    

[ShamrockOneFive]

What possible modifications could we get for F4F-4 ? 

I can certainly think of reduction of armament to four .50 caliber Brownings to match F4F-3 and some bombs, but what else could be given to it ?

 

For A6M2 there are a few options, depending how far one wishes to go.

I can think of at least six modifications such as: 60 kg bombs, enlarged ammunition drums for 20 mm cannons (from 60 to 100 rounds per drum), 250 kg bomb, air-to-air phosphorous bombs and CO2 fire extinguishers for fuel tanks and aileron balance tabs. Some of this require of course additional work, but there are plenty of options to choose from. 

 

I'm actually wondering if they will give us F4F-3 and F4F-4 via the modifications panel. It's a big modification I suppose as the F4F-3 is lighter (no retracting wings).

 

There aren't very many other options for that aircraft. It was a purpose built model with little in the way of options and I don't even think the pilots had much say in things like armor plate modifications or the like.

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

Well, armament reduction could work merely to resemble F4F-3. But any further going changes to represent older variant are unlikely. From the general Navy ACP cards it seems not even ordnance was available and only FM-2 ACP cards from later time indicate possibility to utilize two 100 or 500 pound bombs. 

 

In this regard I feel again better prepared with Zero since I have a table with pretty much complete list of changes this airframe went through since prototype up to last 1945 modifications. 

[Lusekofte]

 

 

Well, that is roughly what it took for the Japanese carriers at Midway. Well, speaking of the bombers that actually hit something.

 

1 time two scout planes manage to badly damage a Carrier , it was not a rule. The need for many in order to get as far as aiming on a carrier was more accurate. Yes it is true that one perfect hit is enough , but getting there is squadron work. It should not be possible. And you knew that was what I ment 

[Stig]

I think the ship AI is going to be critical; the ability to manoeuvre to avoid air attacks is likely to be more important in making it difficult to sink carriers than AAA.

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

To be fair maneuvering was more Japanese thing then American, since Japanese carrier doctrine at that time emphasized individual ship evasive actions whereas U.S. Navy attempted to concentrate firepower which required steady course of whole formation. It will be interesting to see if both approaches can be coded adequately. 

[HagarTheHorrible]

Deleting the heavy radio equipment might be another option for the Zero

A bit Rich don't you think ? Making a tactical choice, radio or no radio, but hey I can still talk to all my buddies anyway, so all pluses and no minuses.

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

 

 

so all pluses and no minuses.

Not really, that means you receive no reports and commands from aircraft carriers and you dont have any advanced navigation tools except MK 1 eyeball and primitive compass. Besides, carrier crews were forbidden to remove their radio equipment.  

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

Well, armament reduction could work merely to resemble F4F-3. But any further going changes to represent older variant are unlikely. From the general Navy ACP cards it seems not even ordnance was available and only FM-2 ACP cards from later time indicate possibility to utilize two 100 or 500 pound bombs. 

 

In this regard I feel again better prepared with Zero since I have a table with pretty much complete list of changes this airframe went through since prototype up to last 1945 modifications. 

How about floats (also usefull for Zeke)?

[xvii-Dietrich]

How about floats (also usefull for Zeke)?

 

 

Whoa! Nice one!!

 

That looks seriously cool!!

 

I would love to fly that!

 

 

 

 

 

Seriously* now, ... we now have for BoMid...

• F4F (floats) Wildcatfish
• OS2U Kingfisher
• PBY Catalina
• SOC Seagull
• J2F Duck

vs

• Nakajima A6M2-N Rufe
• Mitsubishi F1M Pete
• Aichi E13A Jake
• Kawanishi H8K Emily
• Kawanishi H6K Mavis

That's the 8+2 planeset.

 

Sorted.

 

 

*

 

 

 

 

EDIT :  Slight update to the plane set to fix a duplication.

Edited November 11, 2017 by xvii-Dietrich

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

You want me to commit seppuku Dietrich ? 

 

Floatplane maniacs ...