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Can we talk about Career Mode/Dynamic Campaign?

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Really looking forward to this but I can't find a lot of info on it. Can someone describe how it's going to work? Is the campaign similar in depth to BMS?

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Look at ROF's career mode to get an idea of how it will work.

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Somewhat similar to Rise of Flight - not identical, no doubt.  Ie you will be a named person, in a specific squadron of named individuals.  Not all squadrons on the map will be available for you to join. Career generator will assign missions to the squadron, you may get to fly or not, mission results leading to death, injury and victories will change NPC stats, etc.

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As I understand, it's a career mode, not a dynamic Falcon-style campaign.

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Ok so it's essentially a logbook. Your missions won't have an impact on the course of the war.

 

well its a little bit more than that. from memory in RoF as you progressed you would increase in rank, once you became the squadron commander you could assign pilots to sorties, pilots to planes, and also have to worry about damaged planes, and for how long.

 

I actually really enjoyed it and spent many hours in it, I started to play with self imposed hardcore rules. If one of my pilots died I would create a new one to join the same squadron the day after the previous pilot died as a battle casualty replacement. It would have been a really nice feature if when I did this I saw the same pilots and history carry over from my previous progress.

 

Even though I love BoX in Multi Player, I am really looking forward to the new career mode as well.

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Ok so it's essentially a logbook. Your missions won't have an impact on the course of the war.

 

Your missions will have an impact on the course of your war, and your squadron's war.  But if you want to win the war from the cockpit of your plane - then no.  (An ambition I have always found a little odd, personally, but it takes all sorts. ;))

 

I think the best way to think about this sort of career mode is as an RPG "Survival" game, rather than an RPG "Kill the Ancient Weevil" game. 

Edited by unreasonable
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Ok so it's essentially a logbook. Your missions won't have an impact on the course of the war.

I definately don't hope so... One pilot/squadron wouldn't change the outcome of the war.

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I definately don't hope so... One pilot/squadron wouldn't change the outcome of the war.

but ... but ... but ... it's all about ME!!!!  :)

 

Being serious, the "change the war by yourself" campaigns are actually fun.  It was always interesting to try to change the outcome of BoB.  Still, I prefer the RPG in a historical setting variety,

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IIRC it was planned at some point in the development of the RoF career to track all squadron rosters, supplies and losses, meaning that if you inflicted enough casualties against opposing squadrons in the area, enemy activity in your sector would decline and you'd meet very little resistance in the air until the depleted squadrons rebuilt their strength - and vice versa for your side obviously. You wouldn't change the course of the war, but you could influence the tactical situation in the air.

 

I wonder if we have progressed far enough, that we can have something like this in BoX?

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What happens if you die? Do you start over with a new name, or keep your name and just start over?

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I actually wouldn't mind the "turning the tide of the war" mechanic, but if it's not in, it doesnt bother me.

 

If it's equal to PW's work but ingame, Ill be a happy camper.

 

That said, will work still continue on PWCG once it hits?

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I actually wouldn't mind the "turning the tide of the war" mechanic, but if it's not in, it doesnt bother me.

 

If it's equal to PW's work but ingame, Ill be a happy camper.

 

That said, will work still continue on PWCG once it hits?

 

Yep Pat has already stated so and work has begun on version 3.0.

 

The new in game career mode and PWCG should compliment each other nicely.

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I have always felt that it was a huge amount of work that didn't add much.  Would you really notice that squadron so and so wasn't in the air for a week while they got replacements?  Their loss would just be filled in by a different squadron and you wouldn't know any different.  How many planes from a unit will you shoot down?  Maybe four?  Six at most?  That unit would still fly the next day.  Meanwhile the clock on replacements would be ticking.  I certainly could be wrong,  but IMHO your one mission is not going to impact the state of all listed squadrons enough to notice anything.  

 

Tracking replacements for your squadron has more value.  I doubt that you would ever be short handed as replacements generally arrived as fast as losses were incurred.  Replacing experienced AI pilots with inexperienced one is IMHO a critical feature.  Not sure that tracking planes is useful.  Replacement was rapid, and your flight only accounted for a small percentage of the planes available in your squadron, so it would be rare that your pilot would lack a plane.  If so ... how would that be presented to the player such that they understand that they are not flying for lack of planes?

 

Impact on ground structures is IMHO more obvious and a better use of time.  If you bomb a bridge it would be nice if it stayed bombed for awhile.

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Now you're talking about the DC in BMS. I doubt anybody can equal it.

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One more thing to add: if your squadron incurred x losses over y time then it is withdrawn for z amount of time.  That way the player would actually experience the consequences of excessive losses.

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Not sure that tracking planes is useful. Replacement was rapid, and your flight only accounted for a small percentage of the planes available in your squadron, so it would be rare that your pilot would lack a plane.

Depends on the theater and time frame. In Red Star Against the Swastika, the author talks about the whole regiment flying with no more than 2 aircraft on hand for quite a while, in late-summer 1942.

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So, I never got an answer. What happens when you die? Post #12.

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One more thing to add: if your squadron incurred x losses over y time then it is withdrawn for z amount of time. That way the player would actually experience the consequences of excessive losses.

That is actually something I'd really like to see.

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Yep Pat has already stated so and work has begun on version 3.0.

 

The new in game career mode and PWCG should compliment each other nicely.

Ta! I knew 3.0 was planned but I wasn't sure if it would continue after the in game version.

 

Im sure PWCG will continue to bring its own twist to the game.

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Depends on the theater and time frame. In Red Star Against the Swastika, the author talks about the whole regiment flying with no more than 2 aircraft on hand for quite a while, in late-summer 1942.

 

Indeed - happened to the Germans during Barbarossa as well, especially for fighter units being pushed forwards every few days.   Not only due to combat losses but also wear and tear, accidents and total lack of spare parts.  I/JG3 was down to 3 operational aircraft - out of 30 - by the time they were withdrawn after a few weeks.  So they had far more pilots available than planes, so only the experienced pilots got sorties, which is not good in the long run.

 

For the western allies it was a different matter. 

Edited by unreasonable

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So, I never got an answer. What happens when you die? Post #12.

As Louis C. K. says: Lot's of things happen after you die. They just don't involve you.

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So they had far more pilots available than planes, so only the experienced pilots got sorties, which is not good in the long run.

The inverse is not really very good either. In the VVS in 1941, there were almost always more MiG-3s available than there were qualified pilots who were trained to use them, with the result that they were often flown by pilots who had had only rudimentary conversion training, in turn leading to low combat effectiveness and rapidly declining number of MiGs in service.

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If you like ROF Career you should like this one. And once its out we'll likely have to improve it over time just like we did with ROF. Right now our main task is to finish the technology and the GUI work. We're 2 months behind schedule and about 3 years since it should have been done int the first place.

 

PWCG is Pat's singular vision and years of work. its going to have stuff we don't and vice versa. We continue to encourage and support Pat's efforts. The more options and choices users have the better. 

 

Jason 

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Just having a working career inside the game is going to be awesome, regardless if it doesn't have every feature we can dream up from the start.

 

PWCG is great, but it also is slow in use, and as much as I encourage people to use it, I often find myself with just 30 mins of sim-time, and go for the in-game campaign rather than PWCG to save time.

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@Finkeren.  In RoF Career you could get both scenarios.  Sometimes the squadron would manage to write off a number of planes without killing the pilots, leading to shortages of planes, since the replacement rate was not that high.  Especially when I was crashing them and walking away from the accident....

 

Effectively the scenario you are describing is equivalent to having many novice AI in the squadron and always having lost planes replaced immediately, which would be what would happen if your losses were less than the replacement rate.

 

@Jason - really looking forwards to it. My dead-is-dead RoF careers were at the top of my list of immersive gaming experiences - (even if I had to mod it a bit ;) )    

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Flyingsome scripted campaign I waisted about 40 minutes on taxi to runway as a wingman. I feel AI got to be better on ground handling in order to get campaigns that extra thad better 

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Flyingsome scripted campaign I waisted about 40 minutes on taxi to runway as a wingman. I feel AI got to be better on ground handling in order to get campaigns that extra thad better

Like in the current campaign mode (and RoF's career) we'll probably start the mission at the end of the runway ready fir take off, so that shouldn't be an issue.

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As Louis C. K. says: Lot's of things happen after you die. They just don't involve you.

 

Sure they do. You get buried or burnt to ashes. Neither is a good choice.

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PWCG is great, but it also is slow in use, and as much as I encourage people to use it, I often find myself with just 30 mins of sim-time, and go for the in-game campaign rather than PWCG to save time.

lol, I find myself in this very position.

 

I thing that the PWCG is pretty awesome and I do use it when I can.  But having the in game campaign that is quicker is nice for the majority of the time when I only have time for a "long" 20-30 minute mission.

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Yeah luckily for me I have plenty of time , found myself this morning continuing my PWCG career, probably flew around 3 hours or so.

 

Setting up and flying a mission really does not take too long, of course some missions are longer than others. What is a little time consuming is exiting out to work with PWCG,  then starting the game again to go back in and fly the next mission. And that is exasperated a little as I am flying in VR and have to continually remove the headset to work with PWCG and put back on to fly.

 

For me though I find it well worth the time spent with it. The quality of the individual mission is superb, not too mention following along with the progress for both myself and my flight group.

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Yeah luckily for me I have plenty of time , found myself this morning continuing my PWCG career, probably flew around 3 hours or so.

 

Setting up and flying a mission really does not take too long, of course some missions are longer than others. What is a little time consuming is exiting out to work with PWCG,  then starting the game again to go back in and fly the next mission. And that is exasperated a little as I am flying in VR and have to continually remove the headset to work with PWCG and put back on to fly.

 

For me though I find it well worth the time spent with it. The quality of the individual mission is superb, not too mention following along with the progress for both myself and my flight group.

 

No need to restart.  You can alt-tab between them.  When you go back to BoS just exit and reenter the missions menu.  The new PWCG mission will be there.

 

Rats - I was trying hard to keep my comments off of PWCG.  Please don't respond as this thread is about the 1C campaign and not PWCG.  As Jason points out, there will be similarities and there will be differences.  People will have preferences,  Each will be able to learn from the other.  If there is any competition it is of the friendly sort, where hopefully each feeds off the other to get better.

Edited by PatrickAWlson
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I didn't mean winning the war on your own, just a persistence between missions based on your previous flown. If soviet tanks are staging in one area during one mission and you knock out three, will that loss carry over to the tasking of your next mission?  Obviously one pilot can't have much impact on the course of the war, but they can on the course of a battle, or campaign.  

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IIRC it was planned at some point in the development of the RoF career to track all squadron rosters, supplies and losses, meaning that if you inflicted enough casualties against opposing squadrons in the area, enemy activity in your sector would decline and you'd meet very little resistance in the air until the depleted squadrons rebuilt their strength - and vice versa for your side obviously. You wouldn't change the course of the war, but you could influence the tactical situation in the air.

 

I wonder if we have progressed far enough, that we can have something like this in BoX?

 

That's not the issue (the pilot changing the outcome of the war). The issue is actually having the idea that there is a logic behind your every mission, not just a random generator of locations and targets that have no effect, except to bring your stats up and give you a shiny medal. 

 

The air and ground war go hand in hand, the situation in one influences the situation in the other. It is not difficult to put this into the game since most of it would be just formulas and numbers calculated once each day. Not every tank needs to be counted. If the devs want to achieve this, they need to first desire it, then come up with a smart set of stats and rules, sectors, offensives, counter offensives etc. The computer would then be responsible of designing missions based on what's needed, what works and what is possible. The player would end up with better designed missions that have a logic and seem to have an effect. 

 

You can't achieve that just by counting up the dead pilots (although that is a part of it). 

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That's not the issue (the pilot changing the outcome of the war). The issue is actually having the idea that there is a logic behind your every mission, not just a random generator of locations and targets that have no effect, except to bring your stats up and give you a shiny medal.

 

The air and ground war go hand in hand, the situation in one influences the situation in the other. It is not difficult to put this into the game since most of it would be just formulas and numbers calculated once each day. Not every tank needs to be counted. If the devs want to achieve this, they need to first desire it, then come up with a smart set of stats and rules, sectors, offensives, counter offensives etc. The computer would then be responsible of designing missions based on what's needed, what works and what is possible. The player would end up with better designed missions that have a logic and seem to have an effect.

 

You can't achieve that just by counting up the dead pilots (although that is a part of it).

This would be fairly cool, but I honestly wonder, if it would be realistic? Were pilots in general briefed on the current tactical or strategic situation in the ground war? Why would you want to do that, given that combat pilots are always at high risk of being captured? I'm pretty sure that at least in the VVS the briefings were limited to information about location and nature of the target, locations of friendly ground troops close to the target (to minimize friendly fire), the current tactical situation in the air (what resistance could be expected, what friendly missions were nearby), locations of concentrated AAA and then just some some clichés about the mission being "of extreme importance to the war effort - blah blah blah".

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Here is my counter: after all of the work is done would you notice?  If a mission contains six tanks and you destroy three, would you expect to see only three tanks in the area the next mission?  Why?  More tanks could have moved in.  Or the three remaining could have been moved out.  Put plainly, your minuscule efforts, heroic though they may have seemed, really would not have made a noticeable difference.

 

So you say true, but what if the whole battlefield was modeled offline.  Again, how would you know?  And what do you expect to be modeled?  Actual equipment and losses?  Again, when you fly the next mission, would you even know?  What aspects of the mission would allow you to discern that all of these calculations had taken place?

 

So why put so much effort (and it is a lot of effort!) into something that the player never notices?

 

Such a system makes sense in a history altering superman campaign.  Your efforts are multiplied and extrapolated across the whole battlefield.  Your three tank kills become 30 in the simulation.  But in a non history changing system, your efforts are just a blip.  Hardly noticeable,

 

Now my $.02 on a system that would be noticeable and would make sense in a non history altering campaign.  Somebody studies the battles and the ground actions.  Mission generation probability and ground activities change according to history.  If Germans are on the defensive then ground action is Soviet assaults, and vice versa.  In the Kuban, make shipping attacks more common at the right time.  No need to calculate every tank and plane, just understand what is happening when and make missions that make sense at that time.

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I for one can say, that I prefer to be a blip rather than Superman. I want history to play out the way it actually did and just feel like a part of it.

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On the topic of briefings, while you had a rough idea of general movements and the front line like Finkeren said, most briefings were simply "take off, fly to area X and bomb enemy targets there, cover will be X and Y, ready in 5 minutes".

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The thing is: You just don't give info to soldiers that they don't absolutely need. Especially if they are at high risk of getting captured.

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