13 planes shot down in 17 minutes - really?

[Cybermat47]

Major Erich Rudorffer is officially credited with shooting down eight Yak-7s and five Yak-9s within 17 minutes on November 6th, 1943. At the time, he was flying Fw-190s out of Zhytomyr as the commander of II./JG 54.

 

Well, I'm having a hard time believing this. Erich Rudorffer was a skilled pilot, no doubt, but this account is simply too amazing for me to fully believe.

 

Now, I'm not calling the Major a liar - air-to-air combat seems to be extremely disorientating and confusing, so overclaiming seems to be a natural result of that.

 

But, I guess that it could be possible, so I was wondering, do Soviet records confirm Rudorffer's claims?

 

@216th_Lucas_From_Hell, @I./ZG1_Panzerbar, @Space_Ghost, you guys seem to be experts when it comes to the eastern air war, what do you think? Edited September 18, 2017 by FFS_Cybermat47

[Aap]

Yes, this day has been studied several times and it is quite clear that Rudorffer was overclaiming. Don't know if the overclaming was intentional or not, but these claims have lead to closer scrutiny of other Rudorffer's claims also and he has a bit of a reputation as one of the biggest over-claimers. If I remember correctly, the VVS records on that day and area mentioned something like 6 Yak's lost and Luftwaffe claimed 41, 13 by Rudorffer.

Edited September 18, 2017 by II./JG77_Kemp

[707shap_Srbin]

Rudorffer 13 + Tangermann 5 claims in one single combat mission on 06.10.43, together with Lang 18 claims during 03.10.43 are a focus of my next article.

Both dates are extremly overclaimed by mentioned pilots.

 

On 06.10.43, soviet losses were 3 Yak's, due to all cases = Ju87 gunners+german AAA + one of those was probably hit by own AAA. Only 1 (ONE) Yak was shot up by enemy fighters, and bellylanded on own territory, escaping injury. Returned to his regiment on same day. Aircraft was repaired.

 

Other Rudorffer's "world records" You may find in my article here.

 

After I'll publish my Otto Kittel article,  Lang's overclaim will be next focus of article. 

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

For anyone who can't read Russian, Panzerbar's excellent article (and all in WarSpot for the record) translates well using Google translate if needed so don't be afraid of checking it out

Edited September 18, 2017 by 216th_Lucas_From_Hell

[Mysticpuma]

That's a really well put together article and a great read (via Google Translate). Cheers, MP

[A-E-Hartmann]

Excellent article, thank you very much.

[BubiHUN]

well the Luftwaffe's kill confirmation procedure was the most strick in that time. 

Edited September 18, 2017 by -[HRAF]BubiHUN

[OrLoK]

I cant speak for the chap's "record" itself, but I can imagine a few scenarios where this is possible.

 

Pouncing on a flight of rookies for example. (dont forget their flights were often much higher in number to that which we get in sims)

 

Im not saying it would be easy (or his claims are true or not) but Im sure it's doable in certain (extreme situations )

Edited September 18, 2017 by OrLoK

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

OrLoK, here's the problem though: no such thing as a flight of rookies near Kiev in November 1943. By then new pilots were only allowed to fly combat missions after extensive instruction from more experience counterparts, and when they did go to battle the flights were always comprised of one or two ace-rookie pairs among a group of otherwise experienced pilots, usually with a pair or two of aces flying cover to the main flight to make sure the newcomers didn't get killed. Combat instruction by then was also dramatically better than in 1941 so even pilots fresh out of school weren't totally inept.

 

In short, for this to be vaguely believable (and knowing it to be Rudorffer specifically it can be safely assumed to be bollocks) you'd need our hero to singlehandedly take down between 7 and 10 experienced pilots and their wingmen which were under strict cover, that is assuming that the squadron leader authorised a group that's 50% rookies to go anywhere next to the frontlines. What probably happened is he dived on 14 planes, shot down one or two and went home happily thinking of the pay bonus he'd get for the 13 victories he was about to pen down.

[56RAF_Roblex]

There was the same problem with the Canadian WW1 'Ace'  Bill Bishop.   He was undoubtedly a good pilot and many of his kills were seen but he often went out on his own and came back with claims of multiple kills.  On one occasion he went out early and came back claiming he had attacked an enemy airfield destroying many German aircraft on the ground and barely escaped alive after taking hits to his tail and having to throw his gun overboard to save weight. He was given the VC for that despite the complete lack of any evidence or witnesses which VCs usually require.  Furthermore he was never able to explain how it was that there were powder burns on his tail where the unusually tightly grouped bullet holes were and there were suspicions that he had just landed in a field and unhitched his own machine gun and shot a few harmless holes in his own tail from close range, hence the powder burns and very tight spacing. Nor ws there any plausible reason to throw away his gun. Though it is true that many records were lost, there is no evidence at all in any documents, including German pilots diaries and requests for replacement parts and  planes, of any airfields being attacked that day.  

Edited September 18, 2017 by 56RAF_Roblex

[OrLoK]

I'll hapilly bow to your greater knowledge!

 

Cheers for the info. I thought i may well be in the wrong.

 

Good stuff!

[LukeFF]

well the Luftwaffe's kill confirmation procedure was the most strick in that time. 

 

 

Let me guess, you also think Hartmann really shot down all those planes he claimed?

[Gunsmith86]

well the Luftwaffe's kill confirmation procedure was the most strick in that time. 

Well in the first two years of world war one this may be true. Since then they dropped quiet low.

[Aap]

Well in the first two years of world war one this may be true. Since then they dropped quiet low.

 

The procedure as such was in use until the end of war. Actually in 1943 it was made even more strict, when planes that were claimed as shot down over German-held territory were separately checked, to avoid situations where pilots and flak guys were awarded for the same kills. In 1945 it pretty much broke down due to the chaotic situation of course, but the procedure as such was never loosened, so every claim had to be supported by a witness or gun camera. Overclaiming obviously happened and lots of it, but as far as I have read of, Luftwaffe procedure as such was more strict than Allied or Soviet procedure.

 

 

 

 

Let me guess, you also think Hartmann really shot down all those planes he claimed?

 

 

If somebody wants to laugh at Hartmann's claims, they can as well laugh at Kozhedub's, Pokryskin's and other eastern and western aces claims. Overclaiming was a common thing and there are lots of examples where RAF and VVS overclaimed by a lot bigger margin than Luftwaffe. 

[DD_Arthur]

So, we're all agreed that everyone vastly over-claimed - for one reason or another?

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Kemp, with all due respect that is a 'no, you!' defence - an attempt to deflect accusations aimed at the Luftwaffe and inevitably derail the thread. Rudoffer's claims have nothing to do with Kozhedub's or Pokryshkin's, if you want to discuss theirs by all means open a thread and provide some information.

 

But it's funny you mention them, because looking at Pokryshkin's personal and group records crossed with Luftwaffe records between the summers of 1941 and 1942 (when there was little in terms of verification for the Soviet side since they were too busy retreating), he claimed 14 victories. Of those, 4 were wrongly claimed, with the aircraft marked as damaged but returned home, so no fictional combats against twice as many opponents. Unusually however, there were four Bf-109G-2s and one Ju-88 which he shot down but didn't claim! In his reports the targets were listed as damaged but the aircraft actually crashed out of his sight so Pokryshkin didn't attempt to take credit for them.

[Aap]

Kemp, with all due respect that is a 'no, you!' defence - an attempt to deflect accusations aimed at the Luftwaffe and inevitably derail the thread.

 

With all due respect, attempt to make it appear that only Luftwaffe was overclaiming derails the thread as much. I think we both know, who has the habit to use the "no, you" defence in other similar topics, so let's try not to get to that area again now. I did not say "no" about Luftwaffe overclaiming. I said it very clearly, that Luftwaffe was overclaiming, as were other air forces. For some reason you took offense from that simple factual statement and started to defend that "no", Pokryshkin did not overclaim. So maybe you want to rethink, who uses the "no, you" approach?

 

Rudoffer's claims have nothing to do with Kozhedub's or Pokryshkin's, if you want to discuss theirs by all means open a thread and provide some information.

 

I commented Luke's post about Hartmann. So enlighten me, why exactly is it fine to laugh about Hartmann's claims in Rudorffer's topic, but not mention Kozhedub or Pokryshkin? I did not see you telling LukeFF to open a different thread to provide information about Hartmann.

Edited September 21, 2017 by II./JG77_Kemp

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Not going any further into this pissing contest, discussion on the quality of lack thereof in German claim verifications is essential to the original intent of the thread, discussing Rüdorffer's claims.

[Aap]

And again, the official Luftwaffe claim verification procedure was more strict than Allied or VVS, as far as I have read of. Still, lots of overclaiming happened for various reasons. Speaking of comparative quality of the process, you have to compare the results of alternative processes and as mentioned, other major air forces had similar or even wider margin of overclaiming.

That is objective approach to the matter and not a pissing contest.

[unreasonable]

There does seem to be a general rule that claims that were shot down in territory controlled by the claimant were fairly accurate in most cases, but if the alleged victims were said to crash in enemy territory or the sea, an overall ratio of 2 or 3 claims to one actual seems fairly common for all countries, to the extent that anyone can tell. 

 

The case mentioned by the OP seems a particularly egregious case - but there were others. In an organization that reveres the superman it is hardly surprising that a few people would cheat in order to get the coveted Knights Cross with Bling.   Also  hardly surprising if most of the suspects should be GAF pilots, since their aces did in fact fly for longest and did shoot down a great many aircraft.   

[LukeFF]

 

 

n 1945 it pretty much broke down due to the chaotic situation of course, but the procedure as such was never loosened, so every claim had to be supported by a witness or gun camera.

 

It entirely broke down in 1945, no two ways about it. So, any claims made by Luftwaffe pilots in 1945 have to be viewed with a lot higher skepticism.  

[Holtzauge]

On the topic of kill confirmation, I can recommend "The war diary of Hauptmann Helmut Lipfert" by Lipfert/Girbig. I remember it as a great read but I also remember all the fuss about confirmation and all the back and forth about others in the air or on the ground confirming the kill. Don't know if that was specific to the units he flew for or JG52 but the impression you get from that book was that if you wanted to chalk up another one you better have a witness. Can't be sure it's all true of course because I was not there myself but as I said, enjoyed reading it. I'm sure there was overclaiming on both sides and history is always being reevaluated but with things being what they are today you have to be very careful these days when you read something irrespective if it's about a Russian or a German ace.......

[707shap_Srbin]

It entirely broke down in 1945, no two ways about it. So, any claims made by Luftwaffe pilots in 1945 have to be viewed with a lot higher skepticism.  

Official confirmation sistem finished work in spring/summer 1944...

 

After summer 1944, no official confirmation from RLM came back to unit level. Thus means, that  all claims could be counted as a "confirmed on unit level", but not on RLM level.