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19//Moach

More comprehensive scoring system for MP (promoting RTB and survival)

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as mentioned in the general discussion thread What Single player is lacking and what MP is lacking. and there largely agreed upon as a highly desirable feature to have:


 


 


 


a server option, that when enabled would make any victories in a sortie (spawn) count only if the pilot makes it back to friendly territory


 


 


now, this could be crudely done directly with kills... but ideally, score should be kept as a more abstract value


 


 


 


for now, only kill count is shown and to many, it is thus the only thing that matters. in consequence of this, a number of players exhibit a well known habit of treating their airplanes as disposable munitions, never bothering to return to base, as it is faster to bail out or crash-land, and rearming is not an option*


 


*having no means to rearm increases the sense that returning to base is a futile endeavour - the psychological experience of "unspawning" is no different from that of having been shot down and needing to respawn.  it makes the return trip feel absolutely pointless


 


this is also the same issue that makes suicidal vulching a valid proposition


 


while keeping tally of kills makes sense, many games (Battlefield, Red Orchestra, you name it...) have an additional count for "points" - these are awarded from kills, but also from other achievements, which are thuswise validated and so encourage desirable player behaviour.


 


in our case, it would make perfect sense to have "points" and award them for achievements such as landing back at base, or safely ditching in an emergency, and all of the things that are currently neglected by the game but should be considered victories in their own rights by any proper pilot


 


these points should be then subjected to the proposed system that would only grant them once a player has returned to base,   or safely crashlanded on friendly grounds (with 50% payout, same as the SP campaign has it) 


 


the existing interface already seems to account for this, as mission results show after unspawning.  however, there is no consequence to what these result icons say . and only raw kill count comes through as one checks the ingame scoreboard (most players are not even aware of external tracking websites, let alone credit them enough to influence their choices)


 


 


so these "points" should be not only displayed, but also made the default sorting method for the ingame scoreboard (the one you get by pressing TAB),  putting on top him who makes the best all-round pilot, not just him who racks up the largest death toll


 


 


 


 


 


 


this is really nothing new...  most multiplayer shooters have such a system in place, as to encourage actions besides running and gunning (healing buddies, capturing bases and whatnot)  -- this is the same thing, but with "making it back home" and "surviving", and all them things a pilot should be proud of


 


 


this relatively simple feature would definitely make an enormous difference in MP, as it would address these behavioral issues at their very core.  at the same time, this would grant a substantially more rewarding experience for those who already do bother flying home, despite the utter pointlessness of it.


Edited by 19//Moach
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Yes. This.   

 

 

Make it optional by all means as there are many players who like to just rack up kills then commit suicide to get back to the furball quicker but there are also many who wish to limp home realistically and save our life as well as the plane.

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Make it optional by all means as there are many players who like to just rack up kills then commit suicide to get back to the furball quicker but there are also many who wish to limp home realistically and save our life as well as the plane.

 

 

not that it would stop them either way,  if they were really hell-bent on doing that...  though it would make it perfectly clear that this is not the point of the game, making it far more rewarding to fly complete missions, with much deeper immersion as well.

 

 

nevertheless, action-based servers like Berloga would certainly benefit from having this disabled, just as WoL and such would be massively improved by having it on 

Edited by 19//Moach

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To encourage realistic self preservation, there is only one solution: USB powered electrodes to somewhere painful. You could call it the Bolloculous Rift.

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nevertheless, action-based servers like Berloga would certainly benefit from having this disabled, just as WoL and such would be massively improved by having it on 

 

+1.

 

But to have the points and kills erased in case a pilot is shot down in enemy territory, the ideal would be a Red Baron-like feature, simulating a possible escape from prison or returning to friendly lines without being captured.

 

But even without this roll of the dice I would prefer to erase points and kills when shot down in enemy territory.

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I'm pretty sure the server owners already have the option to do this.

 

The server owners already have the option to do which suggestion?  

 

They can currently tell that a plane has crash landed or that it has landed on an airfield or been destroyed but, as far as I am aware, they have no way to tell if you crash landed just short of your runway or just short of your target. Same goes for bailing out.   You should get less deducted for getting a badly damaged aircraft back over your lines before bailing out but the system can't tell that.  There is also the issue that if you take some minor damage from enemy AA or aircraft but still fly home and land safely, all you need to do is scrape a wingtip or tap a bunker at 5mph for the system to award a kill to the enemy (though the stats also count you as having landed safely)    

 

I get that dynamic front lines might make things tricky but I wonder if there is some other way to bodge it like "Which side does the nearest airfield/factory/depot belong to?' or give us a vulnerable vehicle to finish the journey on.  Imagine trying to cycle home to your nearest airbase or depot before you could relaunch otherwise you count as 'captured' which has the same penalties as dying. It would certainly encourage you to try to get as far back as possible before ditching and maybe the person that shot you down will also be trying to stop you getting home as well  (better give them a homing compass though as I would hate to navigate at ground level!)   :)

Edited by 56RAF_Roblex

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There is actually a score multiplier in effect already now, giving 100% if you land back unharmed in friendly territory, and fewer points if you are killed (0%), crash landed (50%) or captured (don't know the percentage).

 

The problem is that this is only enabled in the preset expert and normal modes, which nobody uses for a number of reasons (autobalance on and short mission duration, I would guess).

 

I thought I had suggested in the questions to devs to unlock points for custom modes too, but searching the thread I can't find this hypothetical question. I'm in favour of that suggestion. Devs could start by unlocking the current implementation. It's probably not perfect, but it could do a lot to alleviate the disposable aircraft syndrome.

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The server owners already have the option to do which suggestion?  

They can tell if you're killed or captured. In those cases they could set your points to 0. They choose not to do that.

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They can tell if you're killed or captured. In those cases they could set your points to 0. They choose not to do that.

 

they can tell, yes - but they do not tell it to the player, nor put it in a way that affects their perception of ranking when looking at the scores ingame...

 

the fact that only raw kills are presented in the scoreboard is of the primary causes of the disposable airplane syndrome - the game makes no distinction between pilots flying full missions and others who "cheat" by bailing out or ditching so they can start again quicker (and thus rack up more kills)

 

 

servers like TAW and RandomExpert have gone to great lengths to try and mitigate this problem by way of punishment and sanction.  removing a player's options upon failure to return may have that effect in some extent, but it also creates a whole new (larger) problem where any defeat lessens a player's capability to win victories, thus creating an inverted-pendulum which tips increasingly harder to smash upon the first side to suffer a minor blow

 

that solution is then far from ideal, and this can be clearly seen in server populations that show an obvious preference for WoL over TAW, despite the shortcomings of the former

 

 

no server so far has come across the notion to incentive desirable behaviour, rather than punish the alternative...  

 

alas, it seems that the few simple features that would make that possible have been carelessly neglected - such that incentive by way of additional priority scoring cannot be achieved properly given how obscure anything besides plain kill-count is made to appear...

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They can tell if you're killed or captured. In those cases they could set your points to 0. They choose not to do that.

 

Please let us know how that is done. Because I don't know of any such server setting. As I wrote earlier, the only way to do that is to pick preset settings. Which means you also accept autobalance and 1h (or is it 1h30, I'm not sure) missions, which is not acceptable for most server runners.

 

What you describe can be done outside the game only AFAIK, which limits its value.

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Please let us know how that is done. Because I don't know of any such server setting. As I wrote earlier, the only way to do that is to pick preset settings. Which means you also accept autobalance and 1h (or is it 1h30, I'm not sure) missions, which is not acceptable for most server runners.

 

What you describe can be done outside the game only AFAIK, which limits its value.

It's part of Vaal's stats system. Or at least in was in the RoF version. Maybe that was changed for BoX. You should contact him.

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I have recently noticed that disposabombing is really just one side of the matter here....

 

 

the other part of it, even more aggravating, is vulching

 

 

see, having a bachelor's degree on game planning and design means I don't just fly with you guys, I study you.  (if that makes you feel like a guinea pig, too bad) 

and indeed, there are many good lessons to be learned here, if one knows where to look for them.

 

 

 

so I've recently noticed,  vulching and disposabombing are really the same problem, but one is done with fighters, the other with bombers.

 

both are consequences of the absence of points awarded (and prioritized for sorting players in the scoreboard) for completing full missions, landing included.

 

 

this causes players to behave much like they would on an arcade-type shooter.  as in old counter-strike, where likewise, only kills are scored.  

players default to going out to get as many kills as they can before they themselves become one - then lather, rinse, repeat

 

 

this is exactly the same thought process that causes both vulching and disposabombing:   takeoff, kill, die, repeat.  

 

landing is nowhere to be found in the cycle.  and therefore, survival is fully optional.

 

 

 

 

in the end, the players who do this are not to blame (though many do scorn them profusely for it) - they are only doing that which the game implicitly tells them to do.

and since kills are all that matters, it makes sense that they would only seek to maximize their own tallies...  and if that means taking absurd suicidal risks, then that's what they'll do.

 

alas, this behavior is disturbingly un-historical (unless you're a Kamikaze*) and a detriment to the multiplayer experience as a whole.

 

*bonus idea:   return-optional scoring (only for the Japanese side) can be used to emergently depict Kamikaze action when the Pacific Theatre comes along.  that would truly be a surpassingly clever way to achieve this.

 

 

 

CloD does not suffer as heavily from this, in large part because the ATAG server (CloD's WoL) has a clever feature that allows rearming and refueling when landed. it also allows one to bring up more advanced types (spitty mk.II) from rear bases and service them at any of the airfields closer to the front. (which often spawn only hurricanes and mk.Ia's)

 

that alone is sufficient reward to validate the premise of RTB'ing, just enough so that survival stays ever present in the back of one's mind, influencing decisions such as when to attack and when to survive.

 

 

 

so there you have it:   the lack of these seemingly "trivial" features has far more severe consequences than immediately obvious.

we can only urge developers to take notice and make the few small changes needed to allow us a fantastically superior multiplayer experience.

Edited by 19//Moach

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That probably depends on where you fly Moach.  In the Finnish server if you die you lose all your points, if you crash land or bail you lose half.  You have to actually land at your airfield to get all your points.  The Pilot ranking table does show how many kills you have achieved even if you died a lot doing it but the table is ordered based on the score so people who don't RTB don't get good scores.   Unfortunately the score used is your cumulative score so it probably is technically possible to get high up the table if you bail out a lot losing half your score but have been playing for twice as many hours as others who land all their kills  :-)    

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It's part of Vaal's stats system. Or at least in was in the RoF version. Maybe that was changed for BoX. You should contact him.

 

Vaal's stats system is not part of the game. People with suicidal behaviour can still end up high on the score board in the game.

Smart scoring systems on external web sites are nice to have, but as far as player behaviour is concerned, it's the in-game one that rules.

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+1.

 

But to have the points and kills erased in case a pilot is shot down in enemy territory, the ideal would be a Red Baron-like feature, simulating a possible escape from prison or returning to friendly lines without being captured.

 

But even without this roll of the dice I would prefer to erase points and kills when shot down in enemy territory.

 

Any system you can name will have a downside.  In the above scenario you are saying 'If you are badly damaged and cannot get home then there is no point bailing out and staying alive, just keep fighting while the flames consume your body.'     For me, and I stress this is just want *I* would like,  a system should always reward landing & If I was writing the stats system I would give diminishing rewards in the following order:-

 

1) Return home and land with zero damage or minor body damage.  Include landing with lost control surfaces as it shows skill. 100%

2) Return home with a damaged engine (even if just by bad management ) . 90%

3) Return home and slide down the runway in a shower of sparks that probably wrote off the airframe (even if just bad landing technique) 75%

4) Crash land in friendly territory 65%

4) Bail in friendly territory 50% (yes a big drop.  People should at least consider a crash landing.)

-------------------------------------------------------------

5) Crash land in enemy territory  and despawn alive 35%  (I want people to make a big effort to reach the lines.)

6) Bail in enemy territory and despawn alive  25% 

7) Die in any Territory 10%

8) Despawn in the air 0% & kill given to person doing most damage.  (I know people can have network problems but too many people conveniently have network problems just as they are about to die)

 

I would not penalise taxi mistakes, collisions on ground etc. as nobody does it on purpose and they have their own incentives for avoiding doing it in the future.

 

The Storm Of War server in CLoD had a unique system.  Most of the flying was done by squadrons though it was a 24/7 server.  Each registered squadron had an allocated Airfield of their own that only they could spawn into (Some larger fields hosted two squadrons as in real life and some fields were open for casual players to use)  Each squadron had an allocation of airframes, mostly Hurris & Mk1a Spits with only a couple of Spit IIAs, and the replacements were limited (a committee looked over resupply requests weekly and allocated out the available replacements to those who needed them most)   Landing with damage took the airframe out of use for a period based on the damage (anything from 2 hours to 24 hours)   Landing at someone elses base and not being able to relaunch within 5 minutes incurred a delay getting it delivered back to your base (plus repair time if needed)    

The benefits of all this is that you became attached to *your* airbase and all combat was influenced by the  thought 'Can I get back to Hornchurch/Croydon/Biggin Hill from here with the fuel I have remaining?'  Any engine damage etc led to an immediate RTB to save the airframe.   In the air it led to more realistic flying as enemy squadrons often decided to withdraw when faced with superior numbers or higher adversaries rather than risk losing aircraft that are hard to replace but it did not lead to overcautious flying as you always knew that any kills you could get would deplete the enemies fighting ability.  On top of all this you had the enemy trying to work out where people were based so they could surprise them or bomb them (which removed a percentage of aircraft and repeated raids could close it for days).   It was not perfect, we accepted that sometimes only 6 of our 8 pilots had aircraft to fly until resupplies arrived but there were periods where everyone was so depleted that they would only fly when the whole squad was there to protect each other so the 24/7 server was not really being used 24/7, but it was very immersive.    It stopped when the SoW designers moved to DCS which pretty much caused my own squadron to stop flying CLoD as well because the SoW server was the only reason we and many other squadrons that hated 'kill-die-kill-die' servers had stayed with CLoD.  

Edited by 56RAF_Roblex

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Smart scoring systems on external web sites are nice to have, but as far as player behaviour is concerned, it's the in-game one that rules.

Really? Everyone I know just looks at Vaal's stats. I didn't even realize that there were in-game stats.

 

In any case, sorry. I thought you were talking about Vaal's stats.

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