Hs 129 impressions

[MrNoice]

in my opinion 30mm is a bit bad for Tanks like T-34 and KV-1  best minimum would be 37mm

[Max_Damage]

in my opinion 30mm is a bit bad for Tanks like T-34 and KV-1  best minimum would be 37mm

This is appropriate historically btw.

[Asgar]

KV-1 yeah, but T-34 is a rather easy kill. just attack from appropriate angeles

[Max_Damage]

I'm totally agree with you about the damage of Mk-103. I tried it yesterday to attack a KV-1, I tired 2 passes but no kill. Another complaint to the HS129 is the french engine with only 700hp power... compare to IL2's AM-38 1700hp, it is really low....

Hs129 is ~1000 kg lighter and has two x 700 hp engines though. However what lets it down is the aerodynamics. Apparently bad aerodynamics do not allow this plane to accumulate a lot of speed in horizontal.

[[_FLAPS_]Grim]

I damaged a KV with the 103 attacking from ~40° shooting at the engine deck.

It smoked a bit and slowed down after that strike.

 

I like that thing a lot. Good sight, stable gun platform...dead meat without cover

[Cybermat47]

Has enough ammo in the 103 for me to knock out at least one T-34, so I'm happy. Overall, it might be the best LW tankbuster so far.

[F/JG300_Gruber]

Has enough ammo in the 103 for me to knock out at least one T-34, so I'm happy. Overall, it might be the best LW tankbuster so far.

 

I have to disagree vigorously.

 

With a bit of practice you can average 4-5 T34 in a single sortie with the Stuka and BK37...

 

Unless thew bring later, better armament on the table, the Hs will not perform any good as tankbuster.

[Irgendjemand]

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/25993-aircraft-flight-and-technical-specifications-and-operational/

 

Ahh many thanks!!!

[[CPT]Pike*HarryM]

Nice placement of the airspeed indicator... :/

[HighStick]

That big window and lack of nose in front of it makes me misjudge my altitude, keep hitting ground. Need more practise...   

It has a huge gun arsenal and a poor bomb load. Also a bit slow.

I think I stick with Bf-110 for attack bombing and FW-190 for flak hunting.

Hs-129 seem perfect for interdiction: cruise along low and slow looking for prey to strafe. It will be my new truck, tank and train destroyer...

[StG77_Kondor]

Kondor might have destroyed a KV-1 on his test runs, I will have to ask him tomorrow.

 

Did a quick mission with 3xKV-1's. With the 103 I managed to destroy two KV-1s. I had enough ammo to start going at the third but I may have crashed into a tree. The 103 can destroy them. But you lose so much effectiveness when firing from >~100/150m. At 100m you can get 2-3 solid 103 hits from the side. I was averaging about 4 passes with multiple hits each per KV-1. Being mounted under the nose it is much easier to get hits compared to the wing mounted 3.7s on a stuka. No need to worry about convergence. 

 

Still, it's a nice plane. But a premier tank-buster it isn't. If there's no stuka or 110 available, then it'll do. But it certainly doesn't do it better than them.

[707shap_Srbin]

How many T-34 You may kill in one mission with MK103? 5? 10?

 

I believe, against light and medium tanks Hs129 is more evvective due to central position of gun and more ammo, then Ju87G-1 (low ammo and 2 guns) and Bf110G-2/R1 (too fast to huns small maneuvring targets like light /medium tanks).

[HeavyCavalrySgt]

It is a good airplane to take on missions where you have a lot of fighter cover, or complete air superiority.

 

6 rifle caliber machine guns is a fun loadout, It gives targets a certain "sparkle" and the engineers had a "plenty for everyone" philosophy when it comes to ammo capacity.  Also, if you happen to get an enemy aircraft in your line of fire (perhaps they overshot you, not realizing how slow you are going) you can customize their whole airframe with one short burst and cause them to reconsider some of the choices they have made in their life.

 

I like the versatile loadouts in general in fact and if you ever worry that the plane is too fast, there is plenty of stuff you can hang on it it to slow it down.

 

Gotta love the visibility forward, completely uncluttered by anything like a cowling or an instrument panel.  It is like sitting in front of a big plate glass window, watching the world go by.  There is no visibility to the rear, but that is okay - anything behind you will probably be in front of you soon anyway.

 

Seriously though, I feel badly for the guys that had to fly this thing in real life, in combat. It is interesting that this design won over the FW 189 variant.

[[CPT]Pike*HarryM]

Takeoff is not so bad once you do it a couple of times, just remember to stab not hold the rudder to correct course.

[Jade_Monkey]

What was the main purpose/target of the 4*rifle calibre guns? Small unarmored vehicles? Troops?

[Monostripezebra]

What was the main purpose/target of the 4*rifle calibre guns? Small unarmored vehicles? Troops?

 

pretty much. As sim people sometimes we forget HOW much stuff and people are running around in the real world in WW2.. with the major part of supplies still beeing pushed about with horse drawn carts and kilometer long tracks. Hosing these with high volume of rifle caliber fire were some very disruptive missions on both sides. My grandfather was, as the son of a hoofsmith, one of the horse cart drivers.

[=gRiJ=Roman-]

When I try to take off I end up in a ground loop? What should I do to avoid that?

[LukeFF]

What was the main purpose/target of the 4*rifle calibre guns? Small unarmored vehicles? Troops?

From the available info, it doesn't seem like this loadout was used very much.

[Multimetal]

When I try to take off I end up in a ground loop? What should I do to avoid that?

I've found that holding the HS129 on the brakes until about 85% throttle, releasing them and then hitting the overboost during the takeoff roll helps a lot for keeping her straight.  Make sure to keep you boost time short as the engines overheat very quickly when boosted!

pretty much. As sim people sometimes we forget HOW much stuff and people are running around in the real world in WW2.. with the major part of supplies still beeing pushed about with horse drawn carts and kilometer long tracks. Hosing these with high volume of rifle caliber fire were some very disruptive missions on both sides. My grandfather was, as the son of a hoofsmith, one of the horse cart drivers.

Am I sick for wanting to see this implemented in a sim?  Helping to stop an assault on your side's position by strafing attacking troops, killing machine gun and AA crews, and shooting crew members on ships would be satisfying in a bloodthirsty kind of way.....we can't forget that we are simulating killing people in this game whether it's shown on screen or not!

[Jaws2002]

What kind of AP ammo was model for the 30mm cannons? Is it steel core ammo or the tungsten core ammo introduced in 1942? 

From what i understand The testing at Reclin showed that fifty percent of tungsten penetrators, shot at the side of a KV1 would penetrate. 

 

  This ammo was effective. I managed to kill two KV1s shooting them in the rear of the engine, but in the side I couldn't kill any yet. The side of KV1 is 75mm thik and the rear 70mm lower part and 65mm top part. The turet is 90mm both rear and top. I was not able to penetrate the turret yet, just the rear of the engine compartment. 

  The Mk101 and Mk103 tungsten core ammo should be able to penetrate over 90mm at 100m range and there are photos of KV1 with hits to the turret penetrated by the Mk-101.

 

 I doubt it does that in the game.

 

Is  there a way to change the loadout in the mission, so you don't load MG ammo? I want to be able to shoot just the cannon and don't know how i could do that.

Edited August 30, 2017 by Jaws2002

[-TBC-AeroAce]

When I try to take off I end up in a ground loop? What should I do to avoid that?

U are most likely looping if u are applying rudder on take off. The engines rotate in different directions hence the in no tourqe effect and therefore not need for any rudder (in theory). I find that it just goes straight at full boost and rpm.

[707shap_Srbin]

The Mk101 and Mk103 tungsten core ammo should be able to penetrate over 90mm at 100m range and there are photos of KV1 with hits to the turret penetrated by the Mk-101.

 

According that german report, that KV-1 was not penetrated Was discussed a thousand times already. 

 

Here is the tanles. Note please, that Panzerdurchschlagen is a theoretical number. Sometimes, very far away from actual one.

AP shell

 

Tungsten-core AP shell

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Kind of cute how people want those silly 30mm shells to destroy tanks which usually required 88mm guns to destroy reliably.

[707shap_Srbin]

Kind of cute how people want those silly 30mm shells to destroy tanks which usually required 88mm guns to destroy reliably.

I told You a story already? One driver of T-34 came under attack from Ju87G in late 1943. He was inside the tank in winter uniform. Theit tank got several hits in the hull, and 37mm shell penetrated an armor.

Splinters of penetrated shell hit directly his breast, but were unable to penetrate winter uniform (because were too small with low cinetic power), and all what he felt was a boxing punch in his breast. Had no even a blood wound.

 

How many such "penetrations" of 37mm shells were needed to destroy a tank? And what we are talking about a smaller caliber - 30mm?

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Brilliant

[Jaws2002]

Kind of cute how people want those silly 30mm shells to destroy tanks which usually required 88mm guns to destroy reliably.

 

 

Caliber doesn't mean much when it comes to armor penetration capability. It's all in the energy, sectional density, penetrator design and hardness. Most modern 120-125mm tanks guns shoot 25-27mm penetrators. Obviously, they pack huge ammount of propellant and the penetrators are very long, but the caliber is not important. 

Edited August 30, 2017 by Jaws2002

[216th_Jordan]

Nice story Panzerbar! Although one must not forget that a bigger diameter also needs a projectile with relative kinetic energy to its frontal area size.So a 30mm round can have better armor piercing capabilites than a 37mm round with less energy to area. That said I trust that there is little that can reliably destroy a Kv-1 and splinters can vary incredibly as your story suggests.

 

Your charts look very credible, so where does that often heard story about penetrated Kv-1s come from?

[InProgress]

http://tankarchives.blogspot.com/2016/07/henschel-129-vs-kv-1.html?m=1

 

Of course you can destroy kv1 with 30mm.

What is this silly talk that 30mm is weak? You think germans were idiots to keep producing something that would not work?

[707shap_Srbin]

In summer 1942, a Hs129B-1 from 5./Schl.G.1 was bellylanded on soviet territory after beign shot down. Pilot was captured unhurt. He got some documents with him, among them - trial report with results of testing of MK101 gun, and some technical information and a little manual "How to use MK101".

 

In that trial report, it was written about a test flights of II./Schl.G.1 against single KV-1 in the field in area of Kharkov. They attacked it for 2 days in a row, for whole Staffel, but could not even penetrate it.

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Caliber doesn't mean much when it comes to armor penetration capability. It's all in the energy, sectional density, penetrator design and hardness. Most modern 120-125mm tanks guns shoot 25-27mm penetrators. Obviously, they pack huge ammount of propellant and the penetrators are very long, but the caliber is not important.

 

You can penetrate things all day but it won't do much if your round doesn't do anything inside the tank. It's the equivalent of poking your hand with a needle: you can perforate the skin all the time, but seldom cause any kind of damage.

[RainMan]

I think sometimes it was enough to penetrate the engine grille and cause engine damage so that the tank was disabled.  They same might have been true for affecting the running gear/threads and/or get that lucky shot in to jam the turret.

[707shap_Srbin]

http://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/ru/nodes/1956-delo-158-perevedennye-trofeynye-dokumenty-i-svedeniya-angliyskoy-sluzhby-voennoy-razvedki-po-nemetskim-vvs-i-zenitnoy-artillerii-ispytanie-oruzhiy-tipy-samoletov-tehnicheskie-harakteristiki#page/20/mode/inspect/zoom/5

 

Original translation of that document in russian.

 

No penetrations.

 

Marked with IV - the only "penetration" into welding seal.

[InProgress]

I./ZG1_Panzerbar

 

Yes, they did not kill one tank, that means entire use of this weapon is worthless and nobody ever destroyed anything just because your story of one tank that was not destroyed.

 

In battle of kursk they destroyed 200 tanks. Kv1 was not easy to penetrate, if you open link you will see that it would do it only at x degree at x part of tank. You can fly even 100 days and hitting bad place.

[707shap_Srbin]

I think sometimes it was enough to penetrate the engine grille and cause engine damage so that the tank was disabled.  They same might have been true for affecting the running gear/threads and/or get that lucky shot in to jam the turret.

True. But I must note the must important word - disabled. Not destroyed. Only Panzerblitz/PTABs could destroy a tank with a single hit, without ability to repair it after a high-temperature massive fire inside it. Even a 75-88 mm penetrated tanks could be repaired. 

This will lead no next thing - damaged tank must be evacuated from battlefield. To do so, You must conquer the battlefield. From summer 1943, Wehrmacht generally failed to do so untill the end of war.  Thousends of damaged tanks were lost by Red Army in 1941-42 only because they were damaged and could not be repaired because of German advance, and thousands of tanks were repaired by Red Army during 1943-45 when they could control the battlefield.

 

"I hit a soviet tank with my 37mm guns, it exploded and I flew through the fire over him" was a funny story by Rudel

 

In battle of kursk they destroyed 200 tanks.

Source?

Do You mean  Hs129B actions against soviet armour on 16 july 1943?

 

Tageseinsätze 16.7.1943

b/ Luftflotte 6

Unterstützung 2. Pz.Armee. Erolge: zahlreiche Geschütze zum Schweigen gebracht, über 100 Fahrzeuge vernichtet, mehrere Treibstoff- und Munitionslager explodiert. 34 Panzer vernichtet (davon 8 durch Flak), 6 Panzer beschädigt. 

Abschüße: 40 im Luftkampf 4 durch Flak.

Verluste: über Feindgebiet: 1 Hs 129 2 Fw 190 1 Bf 109; über eigenem Gebiet: 1 Bf 110 1 Ju 88 2 Hs 129 1 Ju 87.

 

Actually in 16 July 1943, in fight against enemy AT artillery, infantry and from airstrikes (most of them - bombing strikes by Ju88, Ju87, Fw190F - so not only and exclusively by Hs129 equipped Staffeln of Hptm. Meyer), soviet 1 Guards Tank Corps lost:

 

232 men killed.

1 T-34

7 T-70

17 armored cars BA-64

49 motor vechicles

2 Armored vechicles

9 motobykes

1 radiostation

Many AAA guns.

 

 

34 tanks destroyed, they say? Ok....

Edited August 30, 2017 by I./ZG1_Panzerbar

[Max_Damage]

In battle of kursk they destroyed 200 tanks.

Lol why not 2000?

[Pharoah]

First thing i did when i jumped onto BOS last night (with the update) was pick the HS129 flying on the Kuban map. Wasn't disappointed. Having a huge window took a bit of getting used to. However, once I started hosing down ships and the like with those cannon...O..M..G. The smaller cannons went on for a long time before I ran out of ammo.  Its definitely not a dogfighter (more like a predecessor to the A10!!) so nap of the earth is the order of the day methinks. 

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

A waiter who knows a guy who is friends with this chick whose grandfather worked in Norway during the war and whose lover was cheating on him with a mechanic who worked with a captain who had served in Kursk said it was actually 200,000!

[Cybermat47]

I find it funny that people expect the Hs-129 to be able to destroy tanks easily. Yes, it's a tankbuster, but it's using 30mm rounds against a small, moving, armoured target.

 

Plus, I would be very surprised if any KV-1s were destroyed by aircraft carrying anything less than a 75mm cannon.

[InProgress]

216th_Lucas_From_Hell

Are you working in circus? Must be really sad circus because you are bad clown.

Instead of trying to be "funny" maybe prove me wrong, everyone makes mistakes, you being clown does not help in anyway.

 

Max_Damage

Another clown..

 

I./ZG1_Panzerbar

Maybe you don't know but kurks did not last one day. Anyway i don't see point in talking to russian fanboy who thinks katyn massacre was made by germans.

 

FFS_Cybermat47

30mm is not bad, they were using at rifles, it's weapon for light and in some medium tanks, it was not made to destroy kv1, but multiple aircraft attacking one tank by experienced pilots still have a chance to score critical hit.

Of course, destroyed can be considered in many ways, if it's on fire then it's completely destroyed, if you broke it and made crew run away or killed it would also be considered destroyed. Kills were often a bit too high counted. Often everyone was counting tank kill because he shot at it, and there was multiple tanks shooting at that tank so everyone would consider it as his kill.

Of course, russians could come back and take tank back to repair, but german pilot would claim that he killed that tank or broken tank could be finished by infantry or other tanks.

 

Also hs129 got better guns later, so that score is not only because 30mm but even higher.

Edited August 30, 2017 by InProgress

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Lighten up mate, if you can't tolerate even a joke people don't exactly feel encouraged to carry a serious discussion since those get heated much more often. Panza already posted German data for you, confirming the game's representation.

Edited August 30, 2017 by 216th_Lucas_From_Hell