Spitfire ground loop

[Quax]

 

... at even a mere quarterly 10 mph wind ???

 

It is not mph, what you set in IL2. It is m/s. If you set 10 m/s, that is 20 knots !   I don´t expect any RL Spit will taxi at 20 knots crosswind without problems.

[Guest deleted@50488]

It is not mph, what you set in IL2. It is m/s. If you set 10 m/s, that is 20 knots !   I don´t expect any RL Spit will taxi at 20 knots crosswind without problems.

 

Yes, I am aware of that :-) for many years actually, but, please bear in mind that when flying the spitfire or any aircraft with it's instruments in the same unit system, the Info bar shows windspeed in mph, not knot or m/s.

 

Of course in the "Quick Mission", if I want to set a 10+ knot wind I program it as 5 m/s... and even less should be used for a 10 mph wind... ( since it's statute miles )....

 

I'm not saying it isn't realistic the way it acts in IL.2 Battle of..., since I never taxied a Spitfire IRL. Actually I never taxied other than C172s and C150s, or Robins and a couple of ULMs IRL, as a "co-pilot",  because I am a glider pilot only, and in gliders I do know how important, specially for some models, a x-wind can become during the final stage of a rollout ...

 

And, btw: https://www.memorialflightclub.com/forum/cross-winds

Edited August 17, 2017 by jcomm

[indiaciki]

Great flying Jcomm !

[curiousGamblerr]

Here's a quick video I threw together of my latest Spit landing two days ago.

 

 

Now, there's a lot "wrong" with this approach, as I was damaged so rushing to get her on the ground, and didn't plan on using this as an educational tool. My approach is dirty (uncoordinated) and I lower my gear a bit fast, among other problems. Also note, having played this game for a while, I tend to prefer a single 180 degree turn onto final. This is opposed to two discrete turns from base to downwind and downwind to final, as most new pilots learn and should probably practice.

 

Anyway, I'm sharing it anyway for two reasons. First, note that landing as slowly as possible makes the aircraft way easier to control on the ground. In the video I think I touch down at just over 80mph.

 

Second, in addition to using a bit of throttle during the rollout, I also drop my RPM to zero. You can see this in the third and final view in the video, where I show the instruments. After touchdown, before using the breaks, I drop the RPM and add a bit of throttle. I use this technique in any aircraft that likes to ground loop (Spit,LaGG, La-5 mostly). I picked it up from someone a while ago and it's been a huge help, as you can see in this video where I barely need rudder or brakes on the rollout.

 

PS the music is Philip Glass, Etude number 2, performed by Víkingur Ólafsson.

Edited August 18, 2017 by 19//curiousGamblerr

[unreasonable]

Nice music and landing.  You should raise flaps before taxiing however (Pedant alert!).

 

Lots of Spitfire anecdotes recommend a continuous curved approach for landing, due to the difficulty of seeing over the nose, so a continuous 180 degree turn ending up straight only at the last moment is optimum, IMHO. You see the display pilots still doing it at air shows.

[Guest deleted@50488]

In this footage, specially towards the end of it, we can watch the "rudder dance" to keep the aircraft on the runway during rollout...

 

[216th_Jordan]

In this footage, specially towards the end of it, we can watch the "rudder dance" to keep the aircraft on the runway during rollout...

 

 

Nice Video! Man that thing really likes to swing

[BlitzPig_EL]

I'm thinking he was on the taxiway and was using the rudder to slew the nose side to side to see where he was going.

 

Also that is a late Griffon engined Spit.  Heavier in the nose and with the bubble canopy, less lateral stability.

 

Just something to think about.

[indiaciki]

Beautiful video! BTW I figured it out, Since i hadn't been flying for a long time my rudder curves were totally screwed up (extreme S -cuves) no rudder authority in the mid ranges. 

[Guest deleted@50488]

Yes, proper curves are a MUST. I just wish so much that IL-2 could make it aircraft-specific ....

[Mmaruda]

Easiest way to avoid ground looping in any plane without separate brakes in the pedal:

-hold down the brake button/lever/whatever

-start pushing left and right alternately and do this fast (while holding the brake all the time)

-it does not matter how much you push the pedals, just that you quickly transition from left to right

 

I was struggling for more than a year playing the sim, until someone gave me this simple trick. What I would do, was to push for example left rudder and the brake and then let go of the brake and then go right rudder and brake again and so on, but this is tricky and hard to be always right on the money with brake inputs, especially with curves.

 

The method I wrote about will work flawlessly 99% and you don't really need to make a perfect approach or touchdown, just be sure to start doing it as soon as all wheels are planted on the ground. Pulling back on the stick fully will also help as it basically works like downforce in a car, pushing your tailwheel to ground, providing it with additional traction. You will also stop very fast with this.

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

Jcomms video is a good deonstration of how rudder corrections on the ground should be executed. If you move the rudder to slow or with too little deflection it will not be able to counter the torque. Hold it too long at deflection and the aircraft will oversteer and breakout.

 

Another way to describe it's steering a big ship. As soon as you see it going into a turn you already have to start countering it.

Edited August 21, 2017 by 6./ZG26_5tuka

[[FF]Saiyon]

Hello folks,

 

I am a pretty new sim pilot and have gotten to a point in IL2 that I can consistently land most planes. I am even getting into dogfight tactics.

 

Then I hit the Spitfire and was just constantly ground looping. It was starting to really get on my nerves. I spent about a week trying all kinds of variations when landing the plane.

 

If you search on Google for this problem, this thread is the #1 ranked result.

 

People in this thread actually do give the answer (Mmaruda two posts above for example) but for some reason it didn't register with me i.e.  I seem to need things explicitly spelled out! 

 

In fact it took me to read all the comments of this Youtube video for the penny to drop https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhYpyQgYy3M. There is a comment nearly all the way at the bottom which is responded to by the video maker:

 

Quote

You need to continue holding brakes until you come to a stop and use rudder at the same time. When using brakes with the rudder pedals it provides differential braking

 

This was my light-bulb moment!

 

So basically when I touch down I bleed of some speed whilst going straight. From the moment I first apply brakes I now never let them go. Use the rudder to adjust left and right  in a stabby fashion. If you let the brakes go at all the momentum will spin you out.

 

Now I am consistently landing the Spitfire and am a very happy sim pilot.

 

Apologies if this was obvious to everyone else in the thread. But it wasn't to me!

 

Hope it helps someone out there!!

 

 

[BlitzPig_EL]

Most people land too fast as well, this makes for problems.

 

I know your use of brakes works in the sim, but this is one of the glaring diversions from reality that should be unacceptable in a "simulation".  If you did that in a real life Spitfire you would be on your nose straight away, and at the least you would have a broken prop, at worst, well, I hope you hugged your girlfriend before you took off, because you would not be doing that ever again...

 

The ground handling remains the weakest part of our favorite sim to this day.  Ineffective brakes than never fade, too much "sticktion" of the ground surface that makes you use inordinate amounts of power to get your aircraft rolling from a parked position, the way too long take off rolls of the WW1 kites, and the totally unrealistic ground loop behavior.  I hope this can be fixed some day.

Edited May 23, 2020 by BlitzPig_EL

[ShamrockOneFive]

2 minutes ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

Most people land too fast as well, this makes for problems.

 

I know your use of brakes works in the sim, but this is one of the glaring diversions from reality that is should be unacceptable in a "simulation".  If you did that in a real life Spitfire you would be on your nose straight away, and at the least you would have a broken prop, at worst, well, I hope you hugged your girlfriend before you took off, because you would not be doing that ever again...

 

The ground handling remains the weakest part of our favorite sim to this day.  Ineffective brakes than never fade, too much "sticktion" of the ground surface that makes you use inordinate amounts of power to get your aircraft rolling from a parked position, the way too long take off rolls of the WW1 kites, and the totally unrealistic ground loop behavior.  I hope this can be fixed some day.

 

The brakes are weird yes but I think they did them this way on purpose. DCS's Spitfire is a bit of a mess for me because I don't yet have an analogue control for my breaking control so I'm still using a push button. I have to tap tap tap the brakes to try and keep the aircraft straight (and not nose over - which happens all the time). The IL-2 version I still tap but less because the brakes don't come on quite as strongly. I think they may have done it this way to make it easier for people with push buttons for brake controls.

 

I appreciate the efficacy of both approaches.

[Dagwoodyt]

On 8/13/2017 at 4:39 PM, indiaciki said:

I haven't been flying for quite some time. This is a video of a typical Spitfire landing (a bit short) - I ground loop most of the time as she loses speed after a successful landing. What am I doing wrong?

 

This is a 2min video of a landing (ext/int view).

 

 

 

 

In the second vid it looks like you are attempting a downwind landing. I think it only looks like crosswind after you have ground looped. If there is a windsock at the field you should note wind direction before attempting to land. If there is crosswind you need to decide early how much aileron input will be needed to avoid having the upwind wing lift. Once the wind causes a wing to lift you are toast. At some fields there is even a choice of runways. Obviously, if one runway is subject to a crosswind and another less so you can make an informed decision as to which you prefer.

Tap dancing the pedals is not the answer. Assessing wind direction and strength before attempting a landing will help you learn to land the Spitfire successfully. Ignore the wind at your peril.

[Vortice]

The still image from curiousGamblerr's post tells you all you need to know about how to prevent the Spitfire from ground looping on landing. Study it well.

 

Wind direction is irrelevant BTW.

[[FF]Saiyon]

1 hour ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

I know your use of brakes works in the sim, but this is one of the glaring diversions from reality that should be unacceptable in a "simulation". 

 

 

I think this is why I was frustrated for a week. It is not the obvious thing to do.

 

Unfortunately though it is the only thing I can seem to do that gets me consistently decent landings. Maybe as I get better I will be able to nuance my style more.

 

It does work though.

Edited May 23, 2020 by Saiyon

[Dagwoodyt]

16 minutes ago, Vortice said:

The still image from curiousGamblerr's post tells you all you need to know about how to prevent the Spitfire from ground looping on landing. Study it well.

 

Wind direction is irrelevant BTW.

Please explain. The aircraft in the vid is damaged prior to touchdown so choices might be limited. Is there any wind or turbulence to factor in? Certainly appreciation of wind strength and direction are critical to understand IRL whether landing  "full size" AC or RC.

[Noisemaker]

3 hours ago, Saiyon said:

Hello folks,

 

I am a pretty new sim pilot and have gotten to a point in IL2 that I can consistently land most planes. I am even getting into dogfight tactics.

 

Then I hit the Spitfire and was just constantly ground looping. It was starting to really get on my nerves. I spent about a week trying all kinds of variations when landing the plane.

 

If you search on Google for this problem, this thread is the #1 ranked result.

 

People in this thread actually do give the answer (Mmaruda two posts above for example) but for some reason it didn't register with me i.e.  I seem to need things explicitly spelled out! 

 

In fact it took me to read all the comments of this Youtube video for the penny to drop https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhYpyQgYy3M. There is a comment nearly all the way at the bottom which is responded to by the video maker:

 

 

This was my light-bulb moment!

 

So basically when I touch down I bleed of some speed whilst going straight. From the moment I first apply brakes I now never let them go. Use the rudder to adjust left and right  in a stabby fashion. If you let the brakes go at all the momentum will spin you out.

 

Now I am consistently landing the Spitfire and am a very happy sim pilot.

 

Apologies if this was obvious to everyone else in the thread. But it wasn't to me!

 

Hope it helps someone out there!!

 

 

You and I landed on the same issue, at the same time, it seems (pun fully intended).  I attempted 30 landings yesterday in the spit vb, in the flight school campaign (Thanks Utopioneer!), 20 of which were fully within parameters (95mph three point landing) and every single one resulted in a ground loop right at the end of the roll out, strangely opposite the prop rotation.  Normal rudder and brake correction were for naught.  I will have to try the wildly swinging rudder technique along with a bit of prop wash and see if that helps when I get back to my rig.

 

[Vortice]

2 hours ago, Dagwoodyt said:

Please explain. The aircraft in the vid is damaged prior to touchdown so choices might be limited. Is there any wind or turbulence to factor in? Certainly appreciation of wind strength and direction are critical to understand IRL whether landing  "full size" AC or RC.

 

Wind direction will affect your landing in many ways, but it does not cause ground looping. Unloading of the weight on the tailwheel at low speed causes ground looping.

[Dagwoodyt]

27 minutes ago, Vortice said:

 

Wind direction will affect your landing in many ways, but it does not cause ground looping. Unloading of the weight on the tailwheel at low speed causes ground looping.

Fantastic! How does wind direction  "affect your landing in many ways" but not contribute to ground looping, especially with a low wing tail dragger? All I am saying is that I think too many simmers ignore wind speed and direction simply because they don't recognize its' significance and cannot be bothered to make a quick pass over the landing field in order to make an assessment. IRL you really wouldn't want to take off or land down wind. If you won't even trouble yourself to make an assessment of wind direction do you really deserve to make a good landing?

Edited May 23, 2020 by Dagwoodyt

[Blackhawk_FR]

14 hours ago, Vortice said:

Wind direction will affect your landing in many ways, but it does not cause ground looping.

 

Cross wind can definitely cause a ground loop. 

Without crosswind, tailwheel aircraft tend to ground loop because they are unstable (CG behind landing gear). 

With crosswind, adding to this unstability, the aircraft will tend to turn into the wind. 

[Noisemaker]

On 5/24/2020 at 12:17 PM, JG300_Faucon said:

 

Cross wind can definitely cause a ground loop. 

Without crosswind, tailwheel aircraft tend to ground loop because they are unstable (CG behind landing gear). 

With crosswind, adding to this unstability, the aircraft will tend to turn into the wind. 

If that would be the case in the game!

I tried another 10 landings today in the flight school campaign, which has the wind at roughly 320 degrees off the nose, so what you might consider a very slight cross wind.  Every landing resulted in a rightwards ground loop (As always) despite rudder and brakes, so with the wind.

I'm honestly at a loss at this point what to do.  I tried the waggling of the rudder, I added thrust for some more prop wash over the control surfaces...  As soon as that turn starts (Which it inevitably does) there is nothing you can do.

[Blackhawk_FR]

14 hours ago, Noisemaker said:

I'm honestly at a loss at this point what to do.  I tried the waggling of the rudder, I added thrust for some more prop wash over the control surfaces...  As soon as that turn starts (Which it inevitably does) there is nothing you can do.

 

You need brakes.

[Noisemaker]

1 hour ago, JG300_Faucon said:

 

You need brakes.

I was holding the brake key the entire time.

[Halon]

I've tried keeping the rpm quite high (40%ish), seems to help. Although I am a total amatuer so take that with a handful of salt! But it works for me.

[Noisemaker]

It worked!  I bound the brake key to an unused controller on my joystick, and it finally worked!  Is the keyboard only momentary, not constant?

[RedKestrel]

19 minutes ago, Noisemaker said:

It worked!  I bound the brake key to an unused controller on my joystick, and it finally worked!  Is the keyboard only momentary, not constant?

Easy way to test this is to hold down the keyboard key and see if the brake lever on the spitfire's yoke remains depressed when you hold it down or not. But I believe it is supposed to be constant if it is held down, there should be no difference between keyboard bindings and joystick bindings.

[FTC_Snowy]

In addition to RedKestrel’s observation about the brake lever the brake dial shows the left and right differential braking activity (I hope I’ve used the correct terminology). I’m just coming to grips with all this.

 

[Noisemaker]

At this point I'm still too busy watching the nose and the runway to look at the gauges while landing, but now that I have working brakes and am not ground looping constantly, I'll try to take a look.  Maybe before my next take off I can test the keyboard.  Unfortunately I'm currently grounded for a few days...

[Solitojorgesoo]

The Spit ground behaviour is a mess, specially after landing.- I cannot avoid ground looping at the final phase of landing. I tried all the tips commented at this thread, but no way.

I have the brake lever mapped to my paddle lever at my Cougar stick, so I can manage the brakes in a realistic way as I want, but is useless when trying to keep the aircraft straight after landing.

I mastered it at CLOD and DCS, but I surrendered at BOx

I hope it should be fixed in a future patch

[Eclipse4349]

5 minutes ago, jorgesoo said:

The Spit ground behaviour is a mess, specially after landing.- I cannot avoid ground looping at the final phase of landing. I tried all the tips commented at this thread, but no way.

I have the brake lever mapped to my paddle lever at my Cougar stick, so I can manage the brakes in a realistic way as I want, but is useless when trying to keep the aircraft straight after landing.

I mastered it at CLOD and DCS, but I surrendered at BOx

I hope it should be fixed in a future patch

The ground looping is pronounced for sure, but I don't think it or any other plane is in need of behavior fixing.  The way I prevent it as by throttling up some after I've landed and I'm rolling and braking.  If you start to swing, and braking on one side along with rudder just isn't cutting it, add more power (increase throttle).  It sounds counter-intuitive to be adding power, but it works, every time.  The added throttle gets your prop moving more air, which increases your rudder authority, and prevents or counteracts the spin.  It works on all other planes with a tendency to ground loop, also. It's important to catch it early.  With enough throttle, you can use the brakes to slow down, and slowly back off the throttle, using rudder and brakes to counteract any sideways movement as soon as it starts. Since I learned about it and started using this method, ground loops are no longer a problem for me.  Adding throttle along with rudder input stops a ground loop that has already started, also.

 

Really, it's pretty much the same principle as throttling up on takeoff with the parking brake set or while holding the brakes.  If you wait until the prop rpm is up and then release the brakes, you'll have more vertical stabilizer and rudder authority and a much easier time heading straight down the runway.

 

Hope that helps you.  It helped me a lot.

[BlitzPig_EL]

You shouldn't have to use a technique for landing a WW1 kite with a WW2 aircraft.  Yes it works, but it's wrong.

 

I can't imagine carrier ops with this screwy ground handling.  Picture a deck full of Sea Fires with the current Spit ground handling.  The forward motion of the ship would blow them all off the deck.

[dburne]

11 hours ago, jorgesoo said:

The Spit ground behaviour is a mess, specially after landing.- I cannot avoid ground looping at the final phase of landing. I tried all the tips commented at this thread, but no way.

I have the brake lever mapped to my paddle lever at my Cougar stick, so I can manage the brakes in a realistic way as I want, but is useless when trying to keep the aircraft straight after landing.

I mastered it at CLOD and DCS, but I surrendered at BOx

I hope it should be fixed in a future patch

 

IMHO the Spit in IL-2 is way easier in this regard than in DCS ( if assistance is off in settings).

I have the brake lever on my MCG Pro paddle. For me I don't have any ground looping issues with it, even when doing cold start from parked position.

[Dagwoodyt]

If I could land the Spitfire perfectly every time I would be disappointed. I always include wind and turbulence effects in my QMB missions. To the best of my recollection I use the brake lever on my controller (in the Spitfire) only very late during landing. Yes, in certain situations a cautious application of throttle to increase torque effect can help straighten out a landing to prevent a ground loop. Clearly, with so many responses on this subject, much of what is presented as authoritative will be ultimately found to be unhelpful. If having trouble best always to go back to basics and set up properly for each landing as though your safety depended upon it.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

My initial response was pretty early in this process. I now land all of the aircraft with castoring tail wheels without any throttle after touchdown. I can generally let all of the fighters rollout with only rudder input and coast to a stop - except the Bf 110 which requires some brakes at the end to control the nose.

[Noisemaker]

I'm still doing doughnuts once in a while but I'm getting the hang of it.

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZc136ijimc[/video]

 

 

Edited June 1, 2020 by Noisemaker
Attempt to embed video link.

[IckyATLAS]

Looking at the gauges (and the runway) mainly speed until you are a few meters high fine but then forget the gauges and the landing is only plane attitude body feel (impossible to simulate), legs and hands. For sure the nose wheel planes are much easier to land than the tailwheel planes, but the last are so much more fun.

[Dagwoodyt]

An old thread I know. Nevertheless I've wondered how to validate which of the suggested techniques work for landing the Spitfire Vb.  I used a free flight QM starting on runway. I tried first with winds calm and later with 4m/s wind and 3m/s turbulence. I set full right rudder trim and elevator neutral or minimally nose down. Once airborne I set full nose-up elevator trim. I kept IAS at 100 to 120mph. I dropped flaps when turning final. I kept descent rate as near to zero as possible during final and forward speed as close to 80mph as possible. Once in ground effect (if it exists here) I killed remaining lift by pulling stick back till touchdown. I then kept heavy up elevator and applied brake lever till stopped. I closed throttle completely at touchdown. I later repeated the procedure during crosswind and turbulence as described. I didn't see a windsock so I assume that I was pointed into the wind on takeoff. In any case I just did a circuit and landed facing the same direction. I didn't need to alter technique to land in that setting.

It seems then that "dancing" on rudder pedals is not necessary and may point to other problems in technique. Certainly it is not necessary to keep throttle on during landing. Pumping the brake lever also seems unnecessary. Overall it seems that landing the Vb might be just a little too easy. Validation of success?? Well video clips are not needed and might even be misleading. The larger image is a winds calm landing. The other is done with wind and turbulence. No tail wheel squiggles in either.