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[Pb]Cybermat47

Bf-109 Headrest Question

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I was wondering, how common was it for Luftwaffe pilots to take off the top of the armoured Bf-109 headrest, like we can in the game?

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I was wondering, how common was it for Luftwaffe pilots to take off the top of the armoured Bf-109 headrest, like we can in the game?

 

Not at all and it didn't really happen.

 

Galland was even denied permission to remove his and quickly bought in to the idea when the headrest plate stopped a bullet in one of his first few missions flying with it installed.

 

Eventually Gallandpanzer became a thing and brought together rear visibility and pilot protection.

Edited by Space_Ghost
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Follow-up question - how common was the Armored glass headrest found on the G2 and G4?

 

post-1271-0-33966100-1388486152.png

I know this doesn't necessarily answer the question but it became standard issue in late 1942 and was applied to many airframes retroactively (starting in Spring 1943.)

Edited by Space_Ghost
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Follow-up question - how common was the Armored glass headrest found on the G2 and G4?

According a documentary I saw a very long time ago, the panzerglass headrest was standard issue on the west, I'm assuming by the time g2 was available and had been being experimented with during Battle of britain.

 

Could be entirely mistaken, but there's been no reason to withhold it from pilot's once available.

Edited by GridiroN

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Space_Ghost's document shows it was authorized On november 18th 1942 for F4 and the Gustavs, so spring 1943, as he mentioned, seems quite realistic for having been introduced in the JGs.

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How common was in WW2 to dogfight? They don't remove at all the Armour Plate make sense in Formation tactics but IL-2 can not match all aspects and with amour headrest you can not check your six as single Flyer or dogfight Server..  

Edited by 9./JG27MAD-MM

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Short dogfights? Relatively common, particularly between escort fighters and interceptors. The protracted 40 minute furballs we see online with no purpose? Uncommon.

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A German pilot who likely flew E and F's said their 109s would fly in a circle over the Spitfires or hurricanes and they would take turns swooping down on spits/hurricanes with lower energy.

 

He said sometimes a British pilot would lose his nerve and try to climb and he was an easy kill with low energy.

 

He also said novice German pilot's would swoop down and try to dogfight after missing g his first energy pass and get shot down by the British pilot behind him.

 

Stuff like that, plus the common knowledge that most pilot's never saw the guy who shot them down means dogfighting was actually not common, especially if you're piloting German planes properly.

 

Max Osterman got jumped by a LaGG even... Lol.

Edited by GridiroN

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Not at all and it didn't really happen.

 

Galland was even denied permission to remove his and quickly bought in to the idea when the headrest plate stopped a bullet in one of his first few missions flying with it installed.

 

Eventually Gallandpanzer became a thing and brought together rear visibility and pilot protection.

That, and Steinhoff threatened to court-martial any of his pilots who removed said headrest.

Edited by LukeFF

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Ok agree but when I fly Il-2 I am not connected with the 20 other 109 around me watch my 6 so on, you simple alone without some one watching that's difference between IL-2 and real...

More common tactic was to use altitude and speed advantage because dogfight slow and low some one got you...

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GridiroN, but don't those engagements constitute dogfights? They weren't turning furballs, but there were opposing fighters having a go at each other for a certain period of time without disengaging.

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GridiroN, but don't those engagements constitute dogfights? They weren't turning furballs, but there were opposing fighters having a go at each other for a certain period of time without disengaging.

 

No, he seemed to be referencing what constitutes basically "vulching". The dogfight only seemed to occur when a pilot made a bad move and it ended when the pilot is shot down. 

 

When I think of "dogfight", I think of intense furballs, requiring acrobatics and intense energy fighting. What the pilot described was very boring and slow paced. Basically flying watching each other until someone makes a mistake really. 

Edited by GridiroN

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Not at all and it didn't really happen.

 

Galland was even denied permission to remove his and quickly bought in to the idea when the headrest plate stopped a bullet in one of his first few missions flying with it installed.

In that case, it looks like I'm going to have to get used to having trouble checking my 6 in my current PWCG career.

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Do we have also some documents like the one posted before but about the additional forward glass protection on many of the 109s?

 

Also, why not suggest a thread in which compiles all the various unlocks historicity and date of use? Would be usefull for mission makers and die-hard fans of realistics options on their planes (like me) :)

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Do we have also some documents like the one posted before but about the additional forward glass protection on many of the 109s?

 

Also, why not suggest a thread in which compiles all the various unlocks historicity and date of use? Would be usefull for mission makers and die-hard fans of realistics options on their planes (like me) :)

 

Armored glass was installed on Emils (as a field modification) starting with the E-4 some time in late 1940. They were fixed to the exterior of the aircraft on top of the standard windshield. To my knowledge, they were practically standard issue (although possibly still "field modifications" as far as the RLM was concerned) starting with the E-7.

 

They were oddly omitted from factory installation in the Friedrich but were often fitted as a field modification. Still an external installation - not flush with the rest of the canopy.

 

The armored glass windshield (and larger windshield frame to allow for a "flush" installation) because standard at the introduction of the Gustav.

 

If I'm able to locate a chart on this I'll certainly provide it.

Edited by Space_Ghost

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Not at all and it didn't really happen.

 

I wouldnt say "at all" but seldomly. I couldn't imagine this being something the devs invented and found some pictures of JG 27s Bf 109 F-4/trop W.Nr. 13136 "White 7" with a shortened headrest.

https://me109.info/display.php?lang=de&auth=e&name=ergebnis_suche&fotonummer=47

https://me109.info/display.php?lang=de&auth=e&name=ergebnis_suche&fotonummer=125

 

and White 1 from the same squad. Couldnt find more planes quickly however I found shorter ones and a rounded one I've never seen before

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