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Midway and Seaplane Tech

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I dont get all this Midway seaplanes idea.

The Pacific theatre brings with it the opportunity for new types of aircraft. We know that the 1C/777 format is 8+2 aircraft, so rather than load each side with fighter/fighter/fighter/dive bomber/torpedo bomber, why not try and diversify the types?

 

 

 

Leaving aside PBY which I'd like to see beyond any other seaplane (well, maybe except for H8K2 but thats not going to happen), F1M, E8N2 or E13A played minor role during events.

I'm puzzled that the devs are talking about the F1M, as I think the USA have a better role for the seaplanes at this stage. However, that's all we have to go on at the moment.

 

I am guessing the USA line-up is F2A-3, F4F-3, SBD-3, TBD-1 and one other.

The Japanese line-up might be A5M, A6M, D3A, B5N and one other.

 

If we are getting carrier battles, this sort of set makes sense. Some have suggested adding level bombers to the mix. B-26, B-17, Ki-21, G4M, etc.. Whereas, I would contend that this is missing an opportunity to add something new.

 

 

One thing that is not mentioned is... just because the Devs asked for information, does not mean it will be included.

 

They may easily decide the F1M is not suitable, or that the community (the whole community, not just the seaplane-v-non-seaplane minority) don't want them, or that they need the information for an AI unit, and not a human-playable one.

 

 

 

Floatplanes would make A LOT more sense in relation to some island campaign, whether that would be Solomon Islands or New Guinea or Timor/Australia (like Ambon or Aroe Islands area).

Yes, I agree completely. But we know that the upcoming titles are Midway, followed by Okinawa. I think it is more compelling to argue for seaplanes at Midway than Okinawa.

 

 

 

 

Based on Parshall and Tully, relevant numbers are as follows: there were no F1Ms in Main Body (Nagumo) force at Midway. IJN Tone and Chikuma both carried 3 E13A1s Jakes and 2 E8N2s Dave, IJN Haruna and Kirishima, each carried 3 E8N2s. IJN Nagara had one E11A1. The only Petes were present at Seaplane Tender group which was few hundred miles behind Main Body - Chitose had 16 F1Ms and 4 E13As and Kamikawa Maru had 8 F1Ms and 4 E13As. Plus Aleutian Force had a few.

Thanks. Numbers are low, which is again why I think the USA might be more applicable for seaplane deployment. However, still I would contend that it makes sense for the Japanese to use them. Firstly, it is a new mechanic (adding variety and diversifying roles) and secondly, seaplanes are cool, giving an incentive for pilots to fly Japanese (it has been predicted that Japanese aircraft will be less popular - in the same way that some argue that the Soviet aircraft are less appealing than the German ones).

 

 

 

Also, how exactly you imagine rescue operations with F1M ?

I don't. I agree with you that the F1M is primarily recon. It is the Kingfisher and Catalina that are more the multi-role (incl. rescue) types.

 

The thread originally started with the question of recon: "What is the implementation and what are your suggestions for improving it?".

 

We do not need search-and-rescue, although it is a neat idea for those types which are capable of it. I agree with you that the F1M is not one of those.

 

 

 

 

As for a recon mechanic: I could imagine that a recon-equipped F1M would have the ability to put an icon on the map, when within visual sight of a US ship.

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I would rather have a E13A Jake then the F1M

8dd524520e894ad7f3c2ca03539b3f33.jpg

 

Numerically the most important of all Japanese float seaplanes during World War II, the Aichi E13A monoplane (of which 1,418 were produced) originated in a naval staff specification issued to Aichi, Kawanishi and Nakajima in 1937 for a three-seat reconnaissance seaplane to replace the six-year-old Kawanishi E7K2 float biplane. A prototype was completed late in 1938 and after competitive trials with the Kawanishi E13K in December 1940 was ordered into production as the Navy Type 0 Reconnaissance Seaplane Model 1. Early aircraft were embarked in Japanese cruisers and seaplane tenders the following year and, carrying a single 250kg bomb apiece, flew a series of raids on the Hankow-Canton railway. Soon afterwards E13A1 floatplanes accompanied the Japanese 8th Cruiser Division for reconnaissance patrols during the strike against Pearl Harbor in December 1941.

Thereafter, as production switched to Kyushu Hikoki KK at Zasshonokuma and accelerated, the seaplanes (codenamed 'Jake' by the Allies) were embarked in the battleships and cruisers of the Kantais (fleets), including the battleship Haruna and cruisers Chikuma and Tone of Vice Admiral Nagumo's Carrier Striking Force at the Battle of Midway. Because of mechanical problems with the ships' catapults there were delays in launching one of the four E13Als to search for the American carriers at dawn on the crucial 4 June 1942, depriving the Japanese of the vital initiative during the early stages of the assault on Midway. Furthermore the Chikuma's E13A1 was forced to return early when it suffered engine trouble, further reducing the all-important search area. One of the other 'Jake' pilots, from the cruiser Tone, eventually sighted the American fleet but at first failed to report the presence of carriers, causing a further 30-minute delay in arming the strike aircraft awaiting orders to launch from Japanese carriers. As it was, when the Americans launched their first strike, the pilots found the decks of the carriers Akagi, Kaga, Soryu and Hiryu clogged with aircraft which should have been attacking the American fleet.

In all, it is estimated that by mid-1943 more than 250 E13A1s were at sea aboard Japanese ships, though their use was severely curtailed whenever American fighters were in evidence. Nevertheless they continued to serve right up to the end of the war, many of them being ultimately used in suicide attacks on the huge American invasion fleets closing on the Japanese homeland.

Edited by Simba
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Well, a Fighter/Dive Bomber/Dive Bomber or Small Sea Plane/Large Sea Plane/Level Bomber would be Best for the Pacific, as there were just less Diverse Fighter Types around early in the War. 

 

The P-40E could be directly ported over to the Pacific. 

So the First Unique Fighter would be the F4F 

The Second and Third would have to be SBD and TBF-1

The PBY is a must have as a Sea Plane

and the Last would be the B-26. 

 

Japanese would be 

A6M model 21 or 32

D3A 

B5N

And whatever is Appropiate light and Heavy Sea Planes, maybe H6K and F1M or E13A and H8K. 

Edited by 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann
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Well, a Fighter/Dive Bomber/Dive Bomberor Small Sea Plane/Large Sea Plane/Level Bomber would be Best for the Pacific, as there were just less Diverse Fighter Types around early in the War. 

 

The P-40E could be directly ported over to the Pacific. 

So the First Unique Fighter would be the F4F 

The Second and Third would have to be SBD and TBF-1

The PBY is a must have as a Sea Plane

and the Last would be the B-26. 

 

Japanese would be 

A6M model 21 or 32

D3A 

B5N

And whatever is Appropiate light and Heavy Sea Planes, maybe H6K and F1M or E13A and H8K. 

 

You forgot the TBD Devastator. Many more of those at the start of the battle than Avengers (of which there were 6). At the end... I think it about evened out though...

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I wonder if the Mk 13 torpedo will act as sketchy in game as it did in 1942. That will make things much more challenging for USN players.

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Japanese would be  A6M model 21 or 32 D3A  B5N And whatever is Appropiate light and Heavy Sea Planes, maybe H6K and F1M or E13A and H8K. 

A6M mod 32 did not arrive until July 1942. A bit too late.

Maybe something like that :

A6M2

D3A1

B5N2

H6K4

D4Y1

 

In spoiler I put an story of H6K4 meeting B-17 in the air. Maybe someone will find it interesting:

 

 

In the Solomons, there were air to air combat between long range patrol planes which came across each other during their long overwater flights. In such encounters, US B-17 (PB-1) and B-24(PB4Y)s were almost always superior to their Japanese opponents which were mostly slower, less heavily armed, and almost unarmored flying boats and floatplanes. Type 2 Flying boats (H8K2) proved to be more of a match, but however exceptional its performance was as a flying boat, the handicap against the land-based planes were undeniable.
 
When the Japanese started losing flying boats in a rapid succession, they at first did not realize the casualties were being caused by enemy patrol planes, because most of them were apparently shot down before they could radio an detailed message about their opponents.
 
Lt. Hitsuji, 851 NAG, was commanding an H6K (Mavis) in November 1942, and became one of the first to find out what shot down Japanese patrol planes and survive. The following is a translation from his memoir "Saigo no Hikotei (The Last Flying boat)" (Asahi Sonorama, ISBN4-257-17286-X).
 
"Enemy plane! Close! Starboard and to the rear!" the tail gunner reported.
"All men on air to air battle station!" I yelled as I put the plane in a full speed dive to sealevel.
 
It was 0700 November 21, 1942, 150 nautical miles south of Guadalcanal. We were in midst of a very bloody battle, losing flying boats almost every day to unidentified enemy activities. Our boats would have just enough time to radio a consecutive "hi" signal (consecutive signaling of the Japanese Morse code signal for the character "hi", the initial for "hikoki" or airplane) before the shoot-out followed by silence. Very few survived air combat. If a boat is able to make detailed reports about the enemy, that boat was sure to make it back.
 
Our commanding officer was in distress about the mounting losses, and just a few days ago, I had assured him that this will not go on for long. So far 16 of our boats were lost. I was not about to be number 17. It wasn't a patrol plane's duty to engage in air battles, but now I had no choice.
 
I figured that the fight must be decided quickly. The B-17 positioned itself above and to the starboard rear of our plane and followed us with ease. It must be radioing it's base about our position. One of them was bad enough. If there were two or even fighter planes we did not have a chance. I made a tight turn to the port and headed towards the enemy. The only chance we had was the relatively small turning radius of our slow plane compared to that of the fast B-17.
 
The enemy was obviously surprised at our sudden turn. As we passed each other, our tail cannon fire hit the B-17 and its port inside engine started smoking. The enemy fled, trailing a long streamer of black smoke. The enemy was surprisingly inpersistent. We continued our search mission, but I had a feeling that it wasn't over yet.
 
"Eat your breakfast now before they come back" I ordered and went to the commander's seat to open my lunchbox. Pretty soon the co-pilot silently pointed his finger forward and to the port. I took a hard look, and there he was. Another big-tailed B-17 heading straight toward us. The one we damaged must have called for help. We were all ready to fight, and I stood up from my seat. I sealed the tank chamber and pulled the fire extinguisher lever. This fills the tank chamber with CO2. All gunners manned their stations. I could see the front gunner grinning in his turret.
 
"Okay we're ready" someone said.
 
At altitude 30 meters and speed 150 knots, we headed towards squally skied in the direction of our base. The enemy didn't start his attack immediately. It flew alongside us and passed us. I figured that he was avoiding our tail cannon. It would probably be making a frontal attack. The shoot-out was about to begin.
 
"Here it comes!" someone shouted, and at the same time, the enemy's front guns and all four of our starboard machine-guns started firing. As we passed each other, I could see the enemy's tail gun fire, but tracers were way behind us. No hits on either side. We didn't change our course and headed toward the squall.
 
The faster enemy caught up quickly and crisscrossed our path, attacking as it passed us.
 
We were at very low altitude, and the sea behind us whitened with machine-gun fire. As the shooting went on, this started moving closer and closer. I could not hear anything other than the roar of the machine-guns and the engine noise. I couldn't keep my eyes off the enemy for a moment. The enemy made its fourth pass, and as it crossed our path, a 50 caliber shell jumped into the cockpit.
 
I heard someone yell "Damn!" and smelled smoke at the same time. I turned around and two men were down on the floor. Our main radio man PO2 Watanabe's left arm was hanging limp from his shoulder, and blood was shooting up to the ceiling. Flight engineer Leading Mechanic Nakano was down on the floor, holding his left arm, and shouting "Gasoline, gasoline!".
 
He was yelling to the radioman because the spark from the telegram key could set the vaporized gasoline on fire. But the injured radio man continued to send the message that we were combating an enemy bomber. The enemy started making yet another pass.
 
I took off my muffler and threw it to Lt. (jg) Ide who was shooting away, and yelled "Stop his bleeding!" I could see from the tank chamber window that gas was gushing out of a hit tank. It was a miracle that it wasn't on fire. The floor was soon covered with gas. I injected additional CO2 gas, and I could see the white gas filling the tank chamber. The injured mechanic was still yelling "Gasoline!". I could only yell back "It's okay! You worry about yourself!"
 
We were able to stop the radioman's bleeding, but the enemy still kept attacking. Amid the exchange of machine gun roar, I could hear bullets tearing into our plane. The plane shook under the impact. All four engines were driving at full power.
 
On their sixth pass, the moment I saw their tailgun fire, there was an enormous banging noise up front gunner PO1 Takahashi pointed to the floor beneath the pilot's seat and I noted a big hole about 30cm, on the keel of our bow. I could see waves from the hole.
 
By this time, I was sure that this enemy has shot down more than one flying boat. "It wasn't fighters. It was this guy. Another patrol plane!. I'm going to get him. He is not going to have anymore kill marks!" As I came to this realization, there was a new determination in my mind. If we can't donw him with our guns, we will ram him. I drew and loaded my pistol.
 
"If worse comes to worst we'll ram him, okay?" I patted the main pilot Ensign Kobayashi's sholder with my pistol. He nodded lightly. "Okay, we're ready then". My mind was set. I was going to shoot myself at the moment of the ramming so I would die before the crew.
 
I noted that the side panel of the commander's seat was burning hot. I was shocked to find the bullet that hit the crew crewmen perched in the panel. Had I not been standing, this bullet would have hit my back! (This bullet is still in my possession).
 
I noticed that the enemy's fire was getting considerably weaker. Either some of their gunners were knocked out, or they were out of ammo. I was getting the feeling that we may be able to make it when the co-pilot suddenly put the plane in a dive. The sea was right in front of us.
 
"Not yet!" I yelled, thinking that he was about to ram the B-17, but soon realized that our co-pilot PO1 Kira evaded a collision with the enemy who came in from the side. The enemy passed about 30meters behind us. The tail gunner poured an entire drum of 20mm cannon shells into the B-17.
 
The shells all hit the enemy's fuselage. The enemy passed us from the right, then banked left and started closing into our plane. I could see the enemy pilot's face. I couldn't help but fire my pistol at the enemy.
 
Maybe the enemy was trying to ram us too. I noticed all his guns were pointing random directions. He must have been out of ammo. He flew alongside us banking and yawing for a while, but eventually disappeared into the rain towards Guadalcanal, trailing gasoline. "We won!" we said to each other, but we could no longer fight.
 
 
Lt. Hitsuji's H6K made it back to Shortland, but taxing was something of a small adventure. After splashdown, as soon as the bow came down, water started gushing in from the hole in the bow. Since they did not have material to close the big hole in the bow, they stuffed their life jackets into the hole. This obviously wasn't holding up, and six men piled up on the life jacket-stuffed hole to stop the water. By the time they were beached, these men had their head barely above water. Everyone was covered with water, oil, and blood.
 
Their plane #36 (could have been O-36 or 851-36 or 51-36) had endured ninety-three 50 caliber bullets.
 
Measures were immediately taken to improve the defensive capability of the flying boats. The following conversions were made on the field.
 
1) Fuel tank protection : All fuel tanks were covered with rubber, and held together with wire net. (Hitsuji notes that American self-sealing tanks with the rubber inside the tank was much more effective, but that couldn't be done in the field.)
 
2) Improved defensive armament: Machine-guns on H6Ks were increased from one 20mm and seven 7.7mm to three 20mm (tail and waist) and five 7.7mm (front, dorsal, ventral, and fuselage sides).
 
3) Armor: 20mm armor plate behind the pilots' seat and 20mm shield at gunners' positions. However, Hitsuji notes that the armor behind the pilot was something of a mixed blessing. Since they didn't have bullet-proof glass, if the bullet came in from the front and hit the pilot , the bullet would not just pass through, but be deflected by the armor plate and tear the pilot's body apart.
 
4) Increased air to air gunnery training.
 
These conversions amounted to 1.5 tons in additional weight, but this did not affect speed and range performance.
 
Lt. Hitsuji survived the war to become the last Japanese pilot to fly the H8K2 when he flew the big boat to Yokohama and where it was handed over to the US occupational forces. He was escorted by a PBY, but had to fly in zigzag pattern to keep from overtaking the PBY.
 

 

 

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I would rather have a E13A Jake then the F1M

+1

 

Good call.

 

 

 

In spoiler I put an story of H6K4 meeting B-17 in the air. Maybe someone will find it interesting:

Yep. Very interesting. Thanks for that!

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A6M mod 32 did not arrive until July 1942. A bit too late.

Maybe something like that :

A6M2

D3A1

B5N2

H6K4

D4Y1

 

In spoiler I put an story of H6K4 meeting B-17 in the air. Maybe someone will find it interesting:

 

 

In the Solomons, there were air to air combat between long range patrol planes which came across each other during their long overwater flights. In such encounters, US B-17 (PB-1) and B-24(PB4Y)s were almost always superior to their Japanese opponents which were mostly slower, less heavily armed, and almost unarmored flying boats and floatplanes. Type 2 Flying boats (H8K2) proved to be more of a match, but however exceptional its performance was as a flying boat, the handicap against the land-based planes were undeniable.

 

When the Japanese started losing flying boats in a rapid succession, they at first did not realize the casualties were being caused by enemy patrol planes, because most of them were apparently shot down before they could radio an detailed message about their opponents.

 

Lt. Hitsuji, 851 NAG, was commanding an H6K (Mavis) in November 1942, and became one of the first to find out what shot down Japanese patrol planes and survive. The following is a translation from his memoir "Saigo no Hikotei (The Last Flying boat)" (Asahi Sonorama, ISBN4-257-17286-X).

 

 

"Enemy plane! Close! Starboard and to the rear!" the tail gunner reported.

"All men on air to air battle station!" I yelled as I put the plane in a full speed dive to sealevel.

 

It was 0700 November 21, 1942, 150 nautical miles south of Guadalcanal. We were in midst of a very bloody battle, losing flying boats almost every day to unidentified enemy activities. Our boats would have just enough time to radio a consecutive "hi" signal (consecutive signaling of the Japanese Morse code signal for the character "hi", the initial for "hikoki" or airplane) before the shoot-out followed by silence. Very few survived air combat. If a boat is able to make detailed reports about the enemy, that boat was sure to make it back.

 

Our commanding officer was in distress about the mounting losses, and just a few days ago, I had assured him that this will not go on for long. So far 16 of our boats were lost. I was not about to be number 17. It wasn't a patrol plane's duty to engage in air battles, but now I had no choice.

 

I figured that the fight must be decided quickly. The B-17 positioned itself above and to the starboard rear of our plane and followed us with ease. It must be radioing it's base about our position. One of them was bad enough. If there were two or even fighter planes we did not have a chance. I made a tight turn to the port and headed towards the enemy. The only chance we had was the relatively small turning radius of our slow plane compared to that of the fast B-17.

 

The enemy was obviously surprised at our sudden turn. As we passed each other, our tail cannon fire hit the B-17 and its port inside engine started smoking. The enemy fled, trailing a long streamer of black smoke. The enemy was surprisingly inpersistent. We continued our search mission, but I had a feeling that it wasn't over yet.

 

"Eat your breakfast now before they come back" I ordered and went to the commander's seat to open my lunchbox. Pretty soon the co-pilot silently pointed his finger forward and to the port. I took a hard look, and there he was. Another big-tailed B-17 heading straight toward us. The one we damaged must have called for help. We were all ready to fight, and I stood up from my seat. I sealed the tank chamber and pulled the fire extinguisher lever. This fills the tank chamber with CO2. All gunners manned their stations. I could see the front gunner grinning in his turret.

 

"Okay we're ready" someone said.

 

At altitude 30 meters and speed 150 knots, we headed towards squally skied in the direction of our base. The enemy didn't start his attack immediately. It flew alongside us and passed us. I figured that he was avoiding our tail cannon. It would probably be making a frontal attack. The shoot-out was about to begin.

 

"Here it comes!" someone shouted, and at the same time, the enemy's front guns and all four of our starboard machine-guns started firing. As we passed each other, I could see the enemy's tail gun fire, but tracers were way behind us. No hits on either side. We didn't change our course and headed toward the squall.

 

The faster enemy caught up quickly and crisscrossed our path, attacking as it passed us.

 

We were at very low altitude, and the sea behind us whitened with machine-gun fire. As the shooting went on, this started moving closer and closer. I could not hear anything other than the roar of the machine-guns and the engine noise. I couldn't keep my eyes off the enemy for a moment. The enemy made its fourth pass, and as it crossed our path, a 50 caliber shell jumped into the cockpit.

 

I heard someone yell "Damn!" and smelled smoke at the same time. I turned around and two men were down on the floor. Our main radio man PO2 Watanabe's left arm was hanging limp from his shoulder, and blood was shooting up to the ceiling. Flight engineer Leading Mechanic Nakano was down on the floor, holding his left arm, and shouting "Gasoline, gasoline!".

 

He was yelling to the radioman because the spark from the telegram key could set the vaporized gasoline on fire. But the injured radio man continued to send the message that we were combating an enemy bomber. The enemy started making yet another pass.

 

I took off my muffler and threw it to Lt. (jg) Ide who was shooting away, and yelled "Stop his bleeding!" I could see from the tank chamber window that gas was gushing out of a hit tank. It was a miracle that it wasn't on fire. The floor was soon covered with gas. I injected additional CO2 gas, and I could see the white gas filling the tank chamber. The injured mechanic was still yelling "Gasoline!". I could only yell back "It's okay! You worry about yourself!"

 

We were able to stop the radioman's bleeding, but the enemy still kept attacking. Amid the exchange of machine gun roar, I could hear bullets tearing into our plane. The plane shook under the impact. All four engines were driving at full power.

 

On their sixth pass, the moment I saw their tailgun fire, there was an enormous banging noise up front gunner PO1 Takahashi pointed to the floor beneath the pilot's seat and I noted a big hole about 30cm, on the keel of our bow. I could see waves from the hole.

 

By this time, I was sure that this enemy has shot down more than one flying boat. "It wasn't fighters. It was this guy. Another patrol plane!. I'm going to get him. He is not going to have anymore kill marks!" As I came to this realization, there was a new determination in my mind. If we can't donw him with our guns, we will ram him. I drew and loaded my pistol.

 

"If worse comes to worst we'll ram him, okay?" I patted the main pilot Ensign Kobayashi's sholder with my pistol. He nodded lightly. "Okay, we're ready then". My mind was set. I was going to shoot myself at the moment of the ramming so I would die before the crew.

 

I noted that the side panel of the commander's seat was burning hot. I was shocked to find the bullet that hit the crew crewmen perched in the panel. Had I not been standing, this bullet would have hit my back! (This bullet is still in my possession).

 

I noticed that the enemy's fire was getting considerably weaker. Either some of their gunners were knocked out, or they were out of ammo. I was getting the feeling that we may be able to make it when the co-pilot suddenly put the plane in a dive. The sea was right in front of us.

 

"Not yet!" I yelled, thinking that he was about to ram the B-17, but soon realized that our co-pilot PO1 Kira evaded a collision with the enemy who came in from the side. The enemy passed about 30meters behind us. The tail gunner poured an entire drum of 20mm cannon shells into the B-17.

 

The shells all hit the enemy's fuselage. The enemy passed us from the right, then banked left and started closing into our plane. I could see the enemy pilot's face. I couldn't help but fire my pistol at the enemy.

 

Maybe the enemy was trying to ram us too. I noticed all his guns were pointing random directions. He must have been out of ammo. He flew alongside us banking and yawing for a while, but eventually disappeared into the rain towards Guadalcanal, trailing gasoline. "We won!" we said to each other, but we could no longer fight.

 

 

Lt. Hitsuji's H6K made it back to Shortland, but taxing was something of a small adventure. After splashdown, as soon as the bow came down, water started gushing in from the hole in the bow. Since they did not have material to close the big hole in the bow, they stuffed their life jackets into the hole. This obviously wasn't holding up, and six men piled up on the life jacket-stuffed hole to stop the water. By the time they were beached, these men had their head barely above water. Everyone was covered with water, oil, and blood.

 

Their plane #36 (could have been O-36 or 851-36 or 51-36) had endured ninety-three 50 caliber bullets.

 

Measures were immediately taken to improve the defensive capability of the flying boats. The following conversions were made on the field.

 

1) Fuel tank protection : All fuel tanks were covered with rubber, and held together with wire net. (Hitsuji notes that American self-sealing tanks with the rubber inside the tank was much more effective, but that couldn't be done in the field.)

 

2) Improved defensive armament: Machine-guns on H6Ks were increased from one 20mm and seven 7.7mm to three 20mm (tail and waist) and five 7.7mm (front, dorsal, ventral, and fuselage sides).

 

3) Armor: 20mm armor plate behind the pilots' seat and 20mm shield at gunners' positions. However, Hitsuji notes that the armor behind the pilot was something of a mixed blessing. Since they didn't have bullet-proof glass, if the bullet came in from the front and hit the pilot , the bullet would not just pass through, but be deflected by the armor plate and tear the pilot's body apart.

 

4) Increased air to air gunnery training.

 

These conversions amounted to 1.5 tons in additional weight, but this did not affect speed and range performance.

 

Lt. Hitsuji survived the war to become the last Japanese pilot to fly the H8K2 when he flew the big boat to Yokohama and where it was handed over to the US occupational forces. He was escorted by a PBY, but had to fly in zigzag pattern to keep from overtaking the PBY.

 

Source: http://www.j-aircraft.com/research/stories/h6ksty.html

 

 

This would be a solid IJN lineup.

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Putting in a collector aircraft on each side that was not of great importance, or not even at Midway, would not be a terrible idea, as it would enable mission makers to do more than just continually replay what in reality was a rather short engagement.  Which is the biggest issue of carrier ops in the Pacific.   Yes the battles they fought were crucial, but they were also short, and don't have enough meat on their bones to sustain several years of game play.

 

Hence, we need more islands too...

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I wonder if the Mk 13 torpedo will act as sketchy in game as it did in 1942. That will make things much more challenging for USN players.

I doubt it. Weapons failure are generally not modelled. I think a Dev said, though accurate, modelling failures frustrates gameplay overall. 

Putting in a collector aircraft on each side that was not of great importance, or not even at Midway, would not be a terrible idea, as it would enable mission makers to do more than just continually replay what in reality was a rather short engagement.  Which is the biggest issue of carrier ops in the Pacific.   Yes the battles they fought were crucial, but they were also short, and don't have enough meat on their bones to sustain several years of game play.

 

Hence, we need more islands too...

Yeah, PBY would probably not be in the 8+2 lineup. Collector AC if it is ever realized. I heard Gambit is funding the whole thing, though, so there's that :)

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A6M mod 32 did not arrive until July 1942. A bit too late.

Maybe something like that :

A6M2

D3A1

B5N2

H6K4

D4Y1

 

In spoiler I put an story of H6K4 meeting B-17 in the air. Maybe someone will find it interesting:

 

 

In the Solomons, there were air to air combat between long range patrol planes which came across each other during their long overwater flights. In such encounters, US B-17 (PB-1) and B-24(PB4Y)s were almost always superior to their Japanese opponents which were mostly slower, less heavily armed, and almost unarmored flying boats and floatplanes. Type 2 Flying boats (H8K2) proved to be more of a match, but however exceptional its performance was as a flying boat, the handicap against the land-based planes were undeniable.
 
When the Japanese started losing flying boats in a rapid succession, they at first did not realize the casualties were being caused by enemy patrol planes, because most of them were apparently shot down before they could radio an detailed message about their opponents.
 
Lt. Hitsuji, 851 NAG, was commanding an H6K (Mavis) in November 1942, and became one of the first to find out what shot down Japanese patrol planes and survive. The following is a translation from his memoir "Saigo no Hikotei (The Last Flying boat)" (Asahi Sonorama, ISBN4-257-17286-X).
 
"Enemy plane! Close! Starboard and to the rear!" the tail gunner reported.
"All men on air to air battle station!" I yelled as I put the plane in a full speed dive to sealevel.
 
It was 0700 November 21, 1942, 150 nautical miles south of Guadalcanal. We were in midst of a very bloody battle, losing flying boats almost every day to unidentified enemy activities. Our boats would have just enough time to radio a consecutive "hi" signal (consecutive signaling of the Japanese Morse code signal for the character "hi", the initial for "hikoki" or airplane) before the shoot-out followed by silence. Very few survived air combat. If a boat is able to make detailed reports about the enemy, that boat was sure to make it back.
 
Our commanding officer was in distress about the mounting losses, and just a few days ago, I had assured him that this will not go on for long. So far 16 of our boats were lost. I was not about to be number 17. It wasn't a patrol plane's duty to engage in air battles, but now I had no choice.
 
I figured that the fight must be decided quickly. The B-17 positioned itself above and to the starboard rear of our plane and followed us with ease. It must be radioing it's base about our position. One of them was bad enough. If there were two or even fighter planes we did not have a chance. I made a tight turn to the port and headed towards the enemy. The only chance we had was the relatively small turning radius of our slow plane compared to that of the fast B-17.
 
The enemy was obviously surprised at our sudden turn. As we passed each other, our tail cannon fire hit the B-17 and its port inside engine started smoking. The enemy fled, trailing a long streamer of black smoke. The enemy was surprisingly inpersistent. We continued our search mission, but I had a feeling that it wasn't over yet.
 
"Eat your breakfast now before they come back" I ordered and went to the commander's seat to open my lunchbox. Pretty soon the co-pilot silently pointed his finger forward and to the port. I took a hard look, and there he was. Another big-tailed B-17 heading straight toward us. The one we damaged must have called for help. We were all ready to fight, and I stood up from my seat. I sealed the tank chamber and pulled the fire extinguisher lever. This fills the tank chamber with CO2. All gunners manned their stations. I could see the front gunner grinning in his turret.
 
"Okay we're ready" someone said.
 
At altitude 30 meters and speed 150 knots, we headed towards squally skied in the direction of our base. The enemy didn't start his attack immediately. It flew alongside us and passed us. I figured that he was avoiding our tail cannon. It would probably be making a frontal attack. The shoot-out was about to begin.
 
"Here it comes!" someone shouted, and at the same time, the enemy's front guns and all four of our starboard machine-guns started firing. As we passed each other, I could see the enemy's tail gun fire, but tracers were way behind us. No hits on either side. We didn't change our course and headed toward the squall.
 
The faster enemy caught up quickly and crisscrossed our path, attacking as it passed us.
 
We were at very low altitude, and the sea behind us whitened with machine-gun fire. As the shooting went on, this started moving closer and closer. I could not hear anything other than the roar of the machine-guns and the engine noise. I couldn't keep my eyes off the enemy for a moment. The enemy made its fourth pass, and as it crossed our path, a 50 caliber shell jumped into the cockpit.
 
I heard someone yell "Damn!" and smelled smoke at the same time. I turned around and two men were down on the floor. Our main radio man PO2 Watanabe's left arm was hanging limp from his shoulder, and blood was shooting up to the ceiling. Flight engineer Leading Mechanic Nakano was down on the floor, holding his left arm, and shouting "Gasoline, gasoline!".
 
He was yelling to the radioman because the spark from the telegram key could set the vaporized gasoline on fire. But the injured radio man continued to send the message that we were combating an enemy bomber. The enemy started making yet another pass.
 
I took off my muffler and threw it to Lt. (jg) Ide who was shooting away, and yelled "Stop his bleeding!" I could see from the tank chamber window that gas was gushing out of a hit tank. It was a miracle that it wasn't on fire. The floor was soon covered with gas. I injected additional CO2 gas, and I could see the white gas filling the tank chamber. The injured mechanic was still yelling "Gasoline!". I could only yell back "It's okay! You worry about yourself!"
 
We were able to stop the radioman's bleeding, but the enemy still kept attacking. Amid the exchange of machine gun roar, I could hear bullets tearing into our plane. The plane shook under the impact. All four engines were driving at full power.
 
On their sixth pass, the moment I saw their tailgun fire, there was an enormous banging noise up front gunner PO1 Takahashi pointed to the floor beneath the pilot's seat and I noted a big hole about 30cm, on the keel of our bow. I could see waves from the hole.
 
By this time, I was sure that this enemy has shot down more than one flying boat. "It wasn't fighters. It was this guy. Another patrol plane!. I'm going to get him. He is not going to have anymore kill marks!" As I came to this realization, there was a new determination in my mind. If we can't donw him with our guns, we will ram him. I drew and loaded my pistol.
 
"If worse comes to worst we'll ram him, okay?" I patted the main pilot Ensign Kobayashi's sholder with my pistol. He nodded lightly. "Okay, we're ready then". My mind was set. I was going to shoot myself at the moment of the ramming so I would die before the crew.
 
I noted that the side panel of the commander's seat was burning hot. I was shocked to find the bullet that hit the crew crewmen perched in the panel. Had I not been standing, this bullet would have hit my back! (This bullet is still in my possession).
 
I noticed that the enemy's fire was getting considerably weaker. Either some of their gunners were knocked out, or they were out of ammo. I was getting the feeling that we may be able to make it when the co-pilot suddenly put the plane in a dive. The sea was right in front of us.
 
"Not yet!" I yelled, thinking that he was about to ram the B-17, but soon realized that our co-pilot PO1 Kira evaded a collision with the enemy who came in from the side. The enemy passed about 30meters behind us. The tail gunner poured an entire drum of 20mm cannon shells into the B-17.
 
The shells all hit the enemy's fuselage. The enemy passed us from the right, then banked left and started closing into our plane. I could see the enemy pilot's face. I couldn't help but fire my pistol at the enemy.
 
Maybe the enemy was trying to ram us too. I noticed all his guns were pointing random directions. He must have been out of ammo. He flew alongside us banking and yawing for a while, but eventually disappeared into the rain towards Guadalcanal, trailing gasoline. "We won!" we said to each other, but we could no longer fight.
 
 
Lt. Hitsuji's H6K made it back to Shortland, but taxing was something of a small adventure. After splashdown, as soon as the bow came down, water started gushing in from the hole in the bow. Since they did not have material to close the big hole in the bow, they stuffed their life jackets into the hole. This obviously wasn't holding up, and six men piled up on the life jacket-stuffed hole to stop the water. By the time they were beached, these men had their head barely above water. Everyone was covered with water, oil, and blood.
 
Their plane #36 (could have been O-36 or 851-36 or 51-36) had endured ninety-three 50 caliber bullets.
 
Measures were immediately taken to improve the defensive capability of the flying boats. The following conversions were made on the field.
 
1) Fuel tank protection : All fuel tanks were covered with rubber, and held together with wire net. (Hitsuji notes that American self-sealing tanks with the rubber inside the tank was much more effective, but that couldn't be done in the field.)
 
2) Improved defensive armament: Machine-guns on H6Ks were increased from one 20mm and seven 7.7mm to three 20mm (tail and waist) and five 7.7mm (front, dorsal, ventral, and fuselage sides).
 
3) Armor: 20mm armor plate behind the pilots' seat and 20mm shield at gunners' positions. However, Hitsuji notes that the armor behind the pilot was something of a mixed blessing. Since they didn't have bullet-proof glass, if the bullet came in from the front and hit the pilot , the bullet would not just pass through, but be deflected by the armor plate and tear the pilot's body apart.
 
4) Increased air to air gunnery training.
 
These conversions amounted to 1.5 tons in additional weight, but this did not affect speed and range performance.
 
Lt. Hitsuji survived the war to become the last Japanese pilot to fly the H8K2 when he flew the big boat to Yokohama and where it was handed over to the US occupational forces. He was escorted by a PBY, but had to fly in zigzag pattern to keep from overtaking the PBY.
 

 

 

 

Was the D4Y1 available this early? I thought it was mostly used in the Marianas battle (the Turkey Shoot) and sparsely before that.

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I am beginning to suspect that the PBY and H6K may start out life like the Ju52 did, ai only aircraft used to provide spotting of the enemy fleet for the player aircraft to attack.

Edited by Mesha44

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Was the D4Y1 available this early? I thought it was mostly used in the Marianas battle (the Turkey Shoot) and sparsely before that.

First two manufactured models were placed on board IJN Soryu to gather some combat experiences. Further units would participate in Battle of Santa Cruz. It's present was not great, thats for sure, but for a premium that does not really matter. And those two had their own episodes before and during Midway battle. 

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First two manufactured models were placed on board IJN Soryu to gather some combat experiences. Further units would participate in Battle of Santa Cruz. It's present was not great, thats for sure, but for a premium that does not really matter. And those two had their own episodes before and during Midway battle.

They were two prototypes that got rebuilt as recoinassance aircraft and it seems they also had some prohibition on diving as the prototype batch still suffered some unresolved issue with flutter and airframe integrity. We can wait for a proper Suisei (either a model 11, 12 or 33) for a later scenario.

Edited by Alexmarine28
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They were two prototypes that got rebuilt as recoinassance aircraft and it seems they also had some prohibition on diving as the prototype batch still suffered some unresolved issue with flutter and airframe integrity. We can wait for a proper Suisei (either a model 11, 12 or 33) for a later scenario.

Not quite. Those were two and only prototypes, and they were not rebuilt as reconnaissance, but only served as such on board of Soryu. On those two were before carried dive bombing and diving trials. They were present at Midway as based on experiences gained on Indian ocean and enemy aircraft being able to penetrate a CAP umbrella over IJN fleet decision was Yokosuka Kokutai issued report that recommended assigning six to nine 13-shi Carrier Bombers (D4Y1) aboard each carrier division flagship to operate as high-speed scouts, since air search during Operation C had left something to be desired.  Thus, the inclusion of the two D4Ys in Soryu's complement for MI Operation was an attempt to meet those recommendations, at least partially.   

Sidenote: Vne was still around 360 knots, higher than comparable designs at given time. 

 

I dont think we get to wait since next bus stop is at Okinawa, where there will be a lot more important aircraft, especially fighters and level bombers, to introduce. And we speak of both Army and Navy machines, while at Midway one gets only Navy. I see no issue at all with having D4Y1 introduced and bombing equipment being added as an upgrade, thus giving server owners choice in what way they envision Judys role in multiplayer. For singleplayer it gives a fine opportunity for high speed reconnaissance missions. 

 

But thats an offtop anyway. Thread was intended to discuss seaplane tech. In this regard I wonder if we would see ships picking up seaplanes as well as catapult launches of seaplanes. 

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Thread was intended to discuss seaplane tech. In this regard I wonder if we would see ships picking up seaplanes as well as catapult launches of seaplanes.

 

 

I would rather have a E13A Jake then the F1M

 

{...}

 

Because of mechanical problems with the ships' catapults there were delays in launching one of the four E13Als to search for the American carriers at dawn on the crucial 4 June 1942, depriving the Japanese of the vital initiative during the early stages of the assault on Midway. Furthermore the Chikuma's E13A1 was forced to return early when it suffered engine trouble, further reducing the all-important search area. One of the other 'Jake' pilots, from the cruiser Tone, eventually sighted the American fleet but at first failed to report the presence of carriers, causing a further 30-minute delay in arming the strike aircraft awaiting orders to launch from Japanese carriers.

So, reading this and other accounts, it seems that the seaplane-recon mechanic is actually pretty important.

 

From an historical perspective, the seaplanes (or lack of seaplanes) was crucial in providing (or in this case, not providing) the necessary reconnaissance to allow the Japanese carrier aircraft to scramble in time to deal with the incoming US attack.

 

Certainly if there are F1Ms (or... more relevantly, E13As) implemented, the question is how to make a recon mechanic work effectively, without making it too gamey... or without making it ineffective.

 

I mean, the anti-seaplane players will argue "fighter+teamspeak/chat" is better than "seaplane+recon-mechanic", right?

 

One thing could be the map icon. It could also be supplemented with an in-game message. Another could be the ability to trigger AI attacks.

 

 

 

 

One thing that makes F1M or E13A aircraft neat would be the catapult launch. (If implemented, would that be a first for a sim?) The advantages of the catapult are:

 

a)  spectacular

 

b)  easy for new players (who often find taxi/take-off tricky)

 

c)  more options for start locations (any tender, cruiser or battleship is also a base)

 

d)  no clutter (a carrier deck is going to get cluttered with taking-off aircraft & accidents!)

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The SAR mechanic, even if simplified is very important IMHO.

 

As I said for single player mission building all I need is the pilot/raft object and I'm in business with triggers already present.

For multiplayer frankly the same method can work. When a pilot bails out over the water, a raft is spawned there and can now be rescued.

The player is free to exit.

 

Stats for rescues would be great, as well as mud moving stats.

 

Right now it's too "kill-centric" encouraging the "I killed you LoL!!!" crowd and not so much mission oriented guys like me.

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As I said for single player mission building all I need is the pilot/raft object and I'm in business with triggers already present.

For multiplayer frankly the same method can work. When a pilot bails out over the water, a raft is spawned there and can now be rescued.

 

 

I've not used the editor in ages, and don't recall what is possible. But, if I understand you correctly, you can detect a bail out? What exactly do you trigger off? The pilot hitting the water, or the bail-out event itself?

 

 

 

Stats for rescues would be great, as well as mud moving stats.

 

Right now it's too "kill-centric" encouraging the "I killed you LoL!!!" crowd and not so much mission oriented guys like me.

 

Yep. Totally.

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Just guessing but probably the bailout. DED server stats can track when and where you bailed out, including deaths and "captures" behind enemy lines.

 

Quoted Dietrich:

 

"The Pacific theatre brings with it the opportunity for new types of aircraft. We know that the 1C/777 format is 8+2 aircraft, so rather than load each side with fighter/fighter/fighter/dive bomber/torpedo bomber, why not try and diversify the types?"

 

And also diversifying missions - make SAR meaningful and it will be fun. It needs to be included with seaplanes from the outset though or the AC type will lose traction like the Ju-52 did.

Edited by II/JG17_HerrMurf
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Not bail out - the resulting pilot/raft object.

I'll type more later when I'm not on my phone.

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I used to love the seaplane zero variant in 1946. It was always exciting getting a float or two shot off and wondering how you were going to land.

HA wow I forgot about that little bit of awesomeness.. Ha my favourite was when your main pontoon has departed, and you land just on just the sponsons (wing pontoons) when the main pontoon departed. Good times.

Edited by 2./JG51_Hobo

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I've not used the editor in ages, and don't recall what is possible. But, if I understand you correctly, you can detect a bail out? What exactly do you trigger off? The pilot hitting the water, or the bail-out event itself?

 

OK - a bit more on this now that I'm not trying to type on my accursed phone.

 

Every object in a mission that you can interact with, or that can interact with you (aircraft, tanks, vehicles), everything that has a nationality, even airfields are 'linked entities' in the editor.

A linked entity, depending on what it is, can be activated, deactivated, it can trigger an event or be triggered by an event. It can activate other things by "events" in it's properties dialogue

 

Currently I can tell an aircraft, or vehicle, or ship etc to send an event for various things, these include

"On Damaged, On Pilot Killed, On Bingo Fuel, On landed, On Pilot Killed, On Pilot Wounded, On Bingo Bombs...what I can't send an event trigger for is "On Pilot Bailed Out"

because that trigger doesn't exist. In any event, he has to make it to the ground alive to be rescued!

(However "OnBailedOut" would be useful for sending a radio message for added immersion)

Not for SAR itself however.

 

So, there are a few ways to skin this cat.

Currently when you bail out the pilot/animation is NOT a linked entity. It's not an object at all really as far as the editor is concerned, and has no persistence.

If I was designing a single player mission where you were tasked with taking off and rescuing a downed pilot, I simply place a trigger zone on the deck wherever I want the down pilot to be, and

currently I have a mission designed just like this. A wrecked aircraft, a trigger zone, when you land and taxi close enough it triggers a message and a mission success condition. Easy Peasy.

For PTO I would use the pilot/raft object and place in the water with said trigger and message. We can do this all day long already for SP.

 

What about multiplayer? A few ways to go about this from a mission design perspective.

One thing the Devs could do is when a pilot lands safely in the water (for now water anyway, land SAR is another matter) it spawns

a pilot/raft object that is a linked entity that we can interact with. This object would have some persistence just like any other object (doesn't disappear after a short period)

The pilot/raft object is set to the proper nationality, and a has a dome shaped trigger radius around it of say 30 meters.

When an aircraft of the proper nationality floats up next to it and penetrates that radius, the object is triggered to delete, and it triggers an "on rescued event" a subtitle message for radio message indicating a rescue.

This will trigger the appropriate points to the pilot.

The under the hood mechanics of this are basically already in the game. From where I sit, fairly simple although I'm not saying it won't take some hours...of course it will.

Point is, no new tech is involved from where I sit.

 

The above is actually more simple then the other option which is more convoluted, harder to code, and I'm not even going to describe it.

The easiest thing is to simply create the downed pilot object with proper functionality/properties.

 

The only question in my mind is how the game knows WHERE to spawn this pilot/raft object on the map - currently there is no under the hood functionality for this that I'm aware of.

This would mean that the ejected pilot would already have to be a linked entity, an would spawn immediately upon eject, land and deploy the raft.

 

This complicates things somewhat...how much only a Dev could answer. This is the mechanic that is not currently in the game.

While this does solve the problem of trying to spawn a separate object with a landed pilot in the proper spot (where he touches down) it does add the element

of changing the nature of the pilot object upon ejection, again creating a spawn event.

 

That's all I have.

This is based on my understanding of the mission editor...how points work for online servers etc, the mechanics involved and how easily it would be to add/trigger points for SAR etc

is over my head, as is how easy/difficult it would be to change the nature of the pilot entity upon ejection.

Edited by Gambit21
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OK - a bit more on this now that I'm not trying to type on my accursed phone.

 

Hehe.... yes, I can see why you waited on that one!

 

 

 

Okay, I think I've got it now. Thanks.

 

What we have at the moment is a parachute mechanism that detects ground contact. For example, when a pilot (or paratrooper) lands, he goes to a sitting (or crouching) position. It does not simply "blink out" in some sort of end-of-animation. So, there must be some code-hook to generate that. What happens at the moment on a splash-down into water with the paratroops? Hmm... not thought about that!!

 

Anyway, I see the issues here and it seems that your idea for the game-spawned pilot/raft would be best. If we are going to have a lot of sea battles in Kuban / Midway, then this might get some attention. Let's hope so!

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Glad my little idea has gained some traction. Lots of additional input and I appreciate your thoughts/input. Even the stuff I don't nece agree with. Keep it coming. Here's hiping the DEV's take notice as well.

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Glad my little idea has gained some traction. Lots of additional input and I appreciate your thoughts/input. Even the stuff I don't nece agree with. Keep it coming. Here's hiping the DEV's take notice as well.

What it needs at some point is a summary.

 

There's a awful lot of material and discussion to wade through... compounded by 2./JG51_Hobo's thread on seaplane water/flight-models.

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Sorry to be that guy, but why is the amount of work necessary for the implementation of seaplanes of such little importance?

I'd rather have no seaplanes than badly implemented ones. I'd much rather have more land based planes than butchered seaplanes. And unless 1C puts considerable time and money into it, seaplanes will be butchered ! So what's the point? Gameplay? Come on ...this aint world of warship or whatever...

Edited by Turban

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I'm really not anticipating a "badly implemented" anything from Jason and team at this point in time - be that seaplanes or anything else.

If we get them, they will be worthwhile, and making them worthwhile is not such a big deal frankly as I already outlined above...for SP anyway.,

Multiplayer is a different animal.

 

Bring on the pontoons!

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I agree with Gambit21 that if 1C/777 do something nowadays, they'll do it well.

 

Additionally, the seaplane implementation in Rise of Flight is arguably the best seaplane implementation in any sim. I could only imagine that an IL2:BoX version would improve on that.

 

As for the point? Yes... gameplay. That's precisely the point. I can understand that some may prefer more landplanes over a "butchered seaplane". But we will not see butchered seaplanes. And the mission options opened up by a new aircraft paradigm will expand the gameplay far more than "yet-one-more-fighter" will.

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Additionally, the seaplane implementation in Rise of Flight is arguably the best seaplane implementation in any sim. I could only imagine that an IL2:BoX version would improve on that.

 

Exactly...we're just talking about additional aircraft here that happen to land/take-off on water and it's been done before.

There's no intrinsic qualities that make seaplanes more difficult to implement without them getting "butchered" in the process.

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Sorry to be that guy, but why is the amount of work necessary for the implementation of seaplanes of such little importance?

Don't be sorry, I did most of it from work  ;)  I fly seaplanes for a living and Flight Simming is my main hobby/pass time, so it is of up-most importance to me!

 

There's no intrinsic qualities that make seaplanes more difficult to implement without them getting "butchered" in the process.

I'd like to see some improvement to the seaplane model from RoF. Not that I think they're butchered, but sailing, buyoancy/plow/step attitude, wave mechanics, and visual clues to wind direction (to name a few things) are usually crudely modelled or non-existent, and it really does bring down the level of immersion for me. 

 

I have a thread which Dietrich mentioned (thanks) where I go over it. I welcome your criticism to help make it more legitimate, I don't really know what the devs are capable of, and what's a lot of work and what is relatively easy to tweak, and I'm no expert. I am a float pilot by profession but not an old salt.

Edited by 2./JG51_Hobo
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Considering there is water and seaplane tech in RoF I'd like to believe it is more evolution than revolution in bringing them to the Pacific.

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That would be awesome! I thinked a lot about recon and spotting and rescue pilot missions and this stuff in MP.

I really love He-115, Do-24, PBY-5 and the Supermarine Sea Otter.

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That would be awesome! I thinked a lot about recon and spotting and rescue pilot missions and this stuff in MP.

I really love He-115, Do-24, PBY-5 and the Supermarine Sea Otter.

I agree!! He115, Do24, PBY are among my top 5 desired floatplanes at the moment! I really dream of the Noordyun Norseman, and the Ar196 as well. I also dream of realistically reading the winds via waves and smoke, sailing, mooring, using more of the real life skills to get the job done. Not to mention rough seas and glassy water, prop spray damage... timing the takeoff and landings in swells... rescue missions and recon would be awesome!!!

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Nice planeset that you suggest. However the critical point is the second part...
 

I also dream of realistically reading the winds via waves and smoke, sailing, mooring, using more of the real life skills to get the job done. Not to mention rough seas and glassy water, prop spray damage... timing the takeoff and landings in swells... rescue missions and recon would be awesome!!!

 
... it is these seaplane mechanics that are absolutely crucial.

Get this right and any seaplane will be a joy to fly. I am certain we all have our own personal favourites (= an idea for a separate thread!), but it is this environmental interaction and mission integration which will be the most rewarding in the long run.

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Don't be sorry, I did most of it from work  ;)  I fly seaplanes for a living and Flight Simming is my main hobby/pass time, so it is of up-most importance to me!

 

I'd like to see some improvement to the seaplane model from RoF. Not that I think they're butchered, but sailing, buyoancy/plow/step attitude, wave mechanics, and visual clues to wind direction (to name a few things) are usually crudely modelled or non-existent, and it really does bring down the level of immersion for me. 

 

I have a thread which Dietrich mentioned (thanks) where I go over it. I welcome your criticism to help make it more legitimate, I don't really know what the devs are capable of, and what's a lot of work and what is relatively easy to tweak, and I'm no expert. I am a float pilot by profession but not an old salt.

 

Great post - I'm sure I'd have nothing to add even if I had your experience, which I don't.

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Following the recent major update, let's hope there are some breadcrumbs dropped in the dev-diaries to hint at their work on seaplane technology.

 

Given the useful reference material from 2./JG51_Hobo, I'm hoping they will take a look at it. RoF remains the best seaplane sim to date... surely they thus has a good starting point to work from.

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The rescue of pilots is a great idea.  I made some edited screenshots as storyboards of a similar arrangement using the storch before Midway was announced, but never got a chance to post them.

 

One of the difficulties in a Pacific theatre computer game would be the resolution of the player's screen, versus the tiny size of the downed pilot.  Spotting an airman alone would be difficult and quite possibly exhausting for many players after long periods.  A way around this would be to have audio triggers from the AI crewmen of your aircraft, which were activated when you fly within a certain range of the airman object.

 

"Gunner to pilot, I think there's something in the water about a mile to starboard.  Bearing 070..."

 

You fly that way to investigate.  As you get nearer, you trip another voice message:

 

"Navigator here.  I see it too.  Definitely something there.  Could be a life raft"

 

Closer still and another sample is triggered:

 

"Gunner to crew, I can see it clearly now.  It's a raft with one man inside"

 

etc. etc....

 

"There he is"

 

"It's one of ours!"

 

""Crew standby for water landing..."

 

You could do all kinds of stuff like that.  The player wouldn't even have to clap eyes on the little guy in the water to suddenly feel engaged and part of a successful search and rescue team.  You could even have "false alarm" objects that have the crew reporting on stray bits of wreckage or whatnot.  The potential is massive.

I know modern pilots also have sea dye to mark their position. Not sure if this was in use in the Midway time period.

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Flares could work too, and proximity triggers for firing flares are already modelled so it wouldn't require extra work :)

 

Did American airmen carry flare guns?

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Did American airmen carry flare guns?

 

I've been trying to figure that out. The standard USN flare gun in WWII was the Mk 5, but I've yet to determine if this was carried by pilots:

 

post-5-1215102758.jpg 

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